Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism

[JSRG]

• Clement of Rome - (35-99 A.D.)


''If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest, but if not, if we neglect his commandments, Nothing Will Rescue Us From Eternal Punishment.''
• Second Clement 5:5


''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord,
while we have yet time for repentance.''
• Second Clement 8:4


''After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will belong to us.''
• Second Clement 8:5
.

Despite the name people usually give it, Second Clement was not written by Clement of Rome (regarded as the author of First Clement), but is an anonymous work. While it still has merit in being an early Christian writing (and is apparently considered canon by the Coptic Orthodox Church), it still shouldn't be attributed to Clement of Rome.

Also, would it be possible for you to refrain from including so many large pictures? They don't really add to your point and mostly just force the reader to scroll longer between posts.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• St. Hilary of Poitiers - On Matthew 5.12 - (300-368 A.D.)

Thus there will be given No Rest to the pagans nor will the onset of death bring the peace they desire. Instead, Their Bodies Are Destined To Suffer Eternally Because Their Punishment Of Eternal Fire Will Be Physical. What they endure, along with everything else destined for eternity, Will Have No End. If pagans are given a body destined for eternity in order to suffer the fire of judgment, how great is the impiety of those saints who doubt the glory of eternity Since Eternal Punishment Is Certain For Sinners!

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[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Saint Basil of of Caesarea - Rules Briefly Treated 267 - (330-379 A.D.)

"If we cannot conceive of an end to that life, how are we to suppose there will be and end to Eternal Punishment? The Qualification Of “Eternal” Is Ascribed Equally To Both Of Them. “For these are going,” He says, “into Eternal Punishment; the just, however, into Eternal Life.” (Mt. 25:46) If we profess these things we must recognize that the “he shall be flogged with many stripes” and the “he shall be flogged with few stripes” refer not to an end but to a distinction of punishment."

.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Saint Augustine of Hippo - Enchiridion 112-113 - (354-430 A.D.)

"It Is In Vain, then, that some, indeed Very Many, Make Moan Over The Eternal Punishment, And Perpetual, Unintermitted Torments Of The Lost, and say they do not believe it shall be so; not, indeed, that they directly oppose themselves to Holy Scripture, but, at the suggestion Of Their Own Feelings, they soften down everything that seems hard, and give a milder turn to statements which they think are rather designed to terrify than to be received as literally true."

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[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Saint Maximus the Confessor - Commentary on the Our Father - (580-662 A.D.)

"Indeed there exists but one happiness, a communion of life with the Word, The Loss Of Which Is An Endless Punishment Which Goes On For All Eternity. And that is why abandoning his body and whatever is the body’s he strives intensely toward that communion of life with God, thinking that the only loss – even he were master of everything on earth – would be in the failure of the deification by grace which he pursues."

..

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Church Fathers on Universalism — Classical Christianity


• St. Andrew of Caesarea - Commentary on the Apocalypse - 6th century

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

"This smoke must imply either the labored breath that cornes out along With The Groaning Of Those Being Punished Emanating Up From Below, or the smoke coming forth from The Fire Punishing Those Who Have Fallen. It is to ascend forever and ever, it says, that we might learn That It Is Endless, just as the bliss of the righteous (will be endless), in like manner also, The Torment Of The Sinners."

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[Saint Steven]

Seems to be a mix of Annihilation and Damnationism here.
Annihilation is basically Damnationism with a conscience.
Universal Restoration is the only view of the final judgement that doesn't turn God into a cosmic tyrant, or an angry volcano god. And this topic does not do away with UR. It only cherry-picks quotes from Damnationists. (and Annihilationists) See St. Jerome below.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

 

[Saint Steven]

Topic title: "Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism"

Meaning, not ALL the "Holy Church Fathers" were against Universalism. An honest admission. Thanks.

And NONE of those writings were in the canon of inspired scripture. So...
What makes them "Holy" anyway?

What does "Holy" mean in the context of differing doctrinal opinions?

There are three biblically supported views of the final judgement:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

 

[Der Alte]

...

Topic title: "Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism"
Meaning, not ALL the "Holy Church Fathers" were against Universalism. An honest admission. Thanks.
And NONE of those writings were in the canon of inspired scripture. So...
What makes them "Holy" anyway?
What does "Holy" mean in the context of differing doctrinal opinions?
There are three biblically supported views of the final judgement:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

The main point is MOST of the ECF did not support UR including the ECF who were students of the disciples e.g. Ignatius and Polycarp students/associates of John, and Irenaeus a student/associate of Polycarp..
That is correct the writings of the ECF are not canonical but they are the only written history of the church from that time period.
Double standard since you reject the writings of the ECF I guess we will not see UR-ites holding up Origen as the ECF UR poster boy any more. Do a forum search and see how many times Origen is quoted by UR-ites. I counted 210 times in the last 6 months. As I said double standard.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]

Making The Sign Of The Cross (Orthodox Videos)



• Athanasius of Alexandria (269-373 A.D.)

"By The Signing Of The Holy And Life-giving Cross, Devils And Various Scourges Are Driven Away. For it is without price and without cost and praises him who can say it. The holy fathers have, by their words, transmitted to us, and even to the unbelieving heretics, how the two raised fingers and the single hand reveal Christ our God in His dual nature but single substance. The right hand proclaims His immeasurable strength, His sitting on the right hand of the Father, and His coming down unto us from Heaven. Again, By The Movement Of The Hands To Or Right The Enemies Of God Will Be Driven Out, As The Lord Triumphs Over The Devil With His Inconquerable Power, Rendering Him Dismal And Weak."



• Athanasius of Alexandria - On The Incarnation Of The Word - 31 (296-373 A.D.)

"By The Sign Of The Cross All Magic Is Stopped, And All Witchcraft Brought To Nothing, and all the idols are being deserted and left, and every unruly pleasure is checked, and every one is looking up from earth to heaven."



• Athanasius of Alexandria - Life of St Anthony - par 78 (296-373 A.D.)

"But we by the mention of Christ crucified put all demons to flight, whom you fear as if they were gods. Where The Sign Of The Cross Is, Magic Is Weak And Witchcraft Has No Strength."

• Tertullian - De corona - Chapter 3 - (160-220 A.D.)

“In all our travels and movements, in all our coming in and going out, in putting on our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupies us,
We Mark Our Foreheads With The Sign Of The Cross”

• St. Cyril of Jerusalem - Catechetical Lecture 13 - par 36 - (313-386 A.D.)

“Let us then not be ashamed to confess the Crucified. Be The Cross Our Seal, Made With Boldness By Our Fingers On Our Brow And In Everything; over the bread we eat and the cups we drink, in our comings and in our goings out; before our sleep, when we lie down and when we awake; when we are traveling, and when we are at rest”


• Cyril of Jerusalem - Catechetical Lecture 13 - par 3 - (315-386 A.D.)

Many have been crucified throughout the world, but by none of these are the devils scared; But When They See Even The Sign Of The Cross Of Christ, Who Was Crucified For Us, They Shudder.

.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• Saint Bede the Venerable - Commentary on 2nd Peter - (673-735 A.D.)

"For The Fire Which Once Punished The People of Sodom Also Plainly Shows What The Wicked Are Going To Suffer Without End. And the fact that their smoke-producing land remains, that its most admirable fruits have ashes and a bad smell within, clearly signifies to all ages that although bodily pleasure delights the minds of the foolish for the present, nevertheless in what concerns that which cannot be seen restains for itelf nothing except that the smoke of its torments rise up for ever and ever."

• St. Theophylact of Ochrid - Explanation of the Gospel According to St. Luke, Chap. 16
(1055-1107 A.D.)

"A conclusion to be drawn Against The Origenists who say that there will be a time when there is an end to hell, that the sinners will be united with the righteous and with God, and thus God will be all in all. Let us hear what Abraham says, that they who would pass from hence to you, or from thence to us, cannot. Therefore, it is impossible for anyone to go from the place apportioned to the righteous to the place of sinners, and likewise, Abraham teaches us, it is impossible to go from the place of punishment to the place of the righteous. And Abraham, I Presume, Is More Trustworthy Than Origen."

• St. Gregory Palamas - To the Nun Xenia, P.G. 150:1043-1088 -
(1296-1359 A.D.)

"Although in the future restoration, when the bodies of the righteous shall be raised, the bodies of the lawless and sinners will also be raised, they will be raised only so as to be subjected to the ‘second death’, That Is, To Eternal Torment, the unsleeping worm, the gnashing of teeth, the outer and inpenetrable darkness, to dark and inextinguishable Gehenna. The prophet says, ‘The lawless and the sinners shall be burnt together, and there shall be none to quench. For this is the ‘second death’, as John teaches us in his Apocalypse."

.

 

[Saint Steven]

I hope my thread doesn't get derailed.




Wow. Just Wow.....

Making The Sign Of The Cross (Orthodox Videos)



• Athanasius of Alexandria (269-373 A.D.)

"By The Signing Of The Holy And Life-giving Cross, Devils And Various Scourges Are Driven Away. For it is without price and without cost and praises him who can say it. The holy fathers have, by their words, transmitted to us, and even to the unbelieving heretics, how the two raised fingers and the single hand reveal Christ our God in His dual nature but single substance. The right hand proclaims His immeasurable strength, His sitting on the right hand of the Father, and His coming down unto us from Heaven. Again, by the movement of the hands to our right the enemies of God will be driven out, as the Lord triumphs over the Devil with His inconquerable power, rendering him dismal and weak."



• Athanasius of Alexandria - On The Incarnation Of The Word - 31 (296-373 A.D.)

"By The Sign Of The Cross All Magic Is Stopped, And All Witchcraft Brought To Nothing, and all the idols are being deserted and left, and every unruly pleasure is checked, and every one is looking up from earth to heaven."



• Athanasius of Alexandria - Life of St Anthony - par 78 (296-373 A.D.)

"But we by the mention of Christ crucified put all demons to flight, whom you fear as if they were gods. Where The Sign Of The Cross Is, Magic Is Weak And Witchcraft Has No Strength."

• Tertullian - De corona - Chapter 3 - (160-220 A.D.)

“In all our travels and movements, in all our coming in and going out, in putting on our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupies us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross”

• St. Cyril of Jerusalem - Catechetical Lecture 13 - par 36 - (313-386 A.D.)

“Let us then not be ashamed to confess the Crucified. Be the cross our seal, made with boldness by our fingers on our brow and in everything; over the bread we eat and the cups we drink, in our comings and in our goings out; before our sleep, when we lie down and when we awake; when we are traveling, and when we are at rest”


• Cyril of Jerusalem - Catechetical Lecture 13 - par 3 - (315-386 A.D.)

Many have been crucified throughout the world, but by none of these are the devils scared; but when they see even the Sign of the Cross of Christ, who was crucified for us, they shudder.

.

Two questions:
1) Does that work in your personal experience?
2) Is that how Jesus disciples did it? (how they were trained)

Luke 9:49
“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”

Luke 10:17
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Two questions:
1) Does that work in your personal experience ?
2) Is that how Jesus disciples did it? (how they were trained)

1. Yes

2. Therefore, Brethren, Stand Fast And Hold THE TRADITIONS Which You Were Taught,
Whether BY WORD OR Our Epistle.

• 2 Thessalonians 2:15


.

 

[Saint Steven]

1. Yes

What happened?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Two questions:
1) Does that work in your personal experience ?
2) Is that how Jesus disciples did it? (how they were trained)

 

[Der Alte]

...

No need for debate. I'm satisfied with your admission.
You could respond to my post #29.
What does "Holy" mean in the context of differing doctrinal opinions?

I responded to your post. Why don't you reply to my post?
I find that a lot among the UR-ites when the opposition becomes too difficult go on invisible mode.

 

[Saint Steven]

Topic title: "Some Holy Church Father Writings Against Universalism"

Meaning, not ALL the "Holy Church Fathers" were against Universalism. An honest admission. Thanks.

And NONE of those writings were in the canon of inspired scripture. So...
What makes them "Holy" anyway?

What does "Holy" mean in the context of differing doctrinal opinions?

There are three biblically supported views of the final judgement:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

What does "Holy" mean in the context of differing doctrinal opinions?

There are three biblically supported views of the final judgement:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism

 

[Saint Steven]

The artwork shared on this topic is quite beautiful. But I notice that none of the subjects are smiling. They all look sad and unhappy.

 

[Saint Steven]

The artwork shared on this topic is quite beautiful. But I notice that none of the subjects are smiling. They all look sad and unhappy.

Is this also a tradition that was "inherited" from the ECFs? Seems to follow if the majority belief at that time was Damnationism. How depressing to have such a low view of our loving heavenly father.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

• St. Cyril of Jerusalem - Catechetical Lectures 18:19 - (313-386 A.D.)

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past."

• St. John Chrysostom - Homily 3 on 2nd Thessalonians - (349-407 A.D.)

"There are many men, who form good hopes not by abstaining from their sins, but by thinking that hell is not so terrible as it is said to be, but milder than what is threatened, and temporary, not eternal; and about this they philosophize much. But I could show from many reasons, and conclude from the very expressions concerning hell, that it is not only not milder, But Much More Terrible Than Is Threatened. But I do not now intend to discourse concerning these things. For the fear even from bare words is sufficient, though we do not fully unfold their meaning. But that it is not temporary, hear Paul now saying, concerning those who know not God, and who do not believe in the Gospel, that “they shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction.” How then is that temporary which is everlasting? “From the face of the Lord,” he says. What is this? He here wishes to say how easily it might be. For since they were then much puffed up, there is no need, he says, of much trouble; it is enough that God comes and is seen, and all are involved in punishment and vengeance. His coming only to some indeed will be Light, but to others vengeance."

.

 

[Saint Steven]

• St. Cyril of Jerusalem - Catechetical Lectures 18:19 - (313-386 A.D.)

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with Angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past."

We are ALL sinners. None is righteous, no not one. (Romans 3:10)

Romans 4:4-5
Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.