LDS why is the BOM in King James English

[Tra Phull]

Don't hold your breath, Bruce, waiting for them to answer your questions.

I suppose they will obfuscate, inveigle and hem-haw as usual

 

[Ironhold]

I didn't know what you were writing about at first (BOM, JS, "rock in the hat," Nicene Christians). I have other questions of Mormons. The main one is why the Native American oral and written culture has no trace of Jesus' appearance to them after his resurrection. That certainly would have remained in their tradition if the event ever happened.

There's quite the history of various tribes talking about a "white bearded god" or otherwise reverencing people whose descriptions sound so suspiciously close to traditional depictions of Jesus that it's turned a few heads.

 

[mmksparbud]

There's quite the history of various tribes talking about a "white bearded god" or otherwise reverencing people whose descriptions sound so suspiciously close to traditional depictions of Jesus that it's turned a few heads.

That has been shown to have been the Vikings, but you guys refuse to believe it. And all the stories revolved around someone who was coming, not someone who had been here and coming back. The stories looked forward, not backward. That is who they thought the Spaniards were, at first.

 

[Ironhold]

That has been shown to have been the Vikings, but you guys refuse to believe it. And all the stories revolved around someone who was coming, not someone who had been here and coming back. The stories looked forward, not backward. That is who they thought the Spaniards were, at first.

I'm talking about even within the Latin-American countries, where Vikings have never been officially confirmed to have traveled. Some accounts list Quetzalcoatl as having such a form.

So unless you're willing to explain that the Vikings reached Latin America (you'd be better off trying to argue that it was the Romans, as there have been some known out-of-place artifacts), this doesn't fit what you're saying.

 

[JackRT]

I'm talking about even within the Latin-American countries, where Vikings have never been officially confirmed to have traveled. Some accounts list Quetzalcoatl as having such a form

There is some evidence that around 300 BC some ship wrecked Phoenicians may have landed in South America. They were part of a fleet that was attempting to circumnavigate Africa on a trading voyage only to encounter a great storm off the west coast of Africa. A few ships did make it home.

 

[Tra Phull]

We seem to have strayed into Quetzylcoatl, ancient Romans, Phoenicians in 300 BC...

I just want to focus on
WHY IN 1830
was the BOM
written in what was much more like King James English than 1830 American English?

There was no "translation", was there?
There was nothing to translate FROM, was there?

There were ideas floating around about American Indian "Israelis" - there were two different versions of a Spalding account - and there was made up history in King James English, or as close to it as could be written in 1830.

 

[JackRT]

We seem to have strayed into Quetzylcoatl, ancient Romans, Phoenicians in 300 BC...

I just want to focus on
WHY IN 1830
was the BOM
written in what was much more like King James English than 1830 American English?

There was no "translation", was there?
There was nothing to translate FROM, was there?

There were ideas floating around about American Indian "Israelis" - there were two different versions of a Spalding account - and there was made up history in King James English, or as close to it as could be written in 1830.

I think that the use of Jacobean English was an attempt to give it an aura of authenticity.

 

[Peter1000]

Don't hold your breath, Bruce, waiting for them to answer your questions.

I suppose they will obfuscate, inveigle and hem-haw as usual

I don't know how long you have been on this forum, but over the last 5 years I have answered these same questions 10 times each, in more detail than I would like too, because when I did, all I got back was: that's the most stupid thing I ever heard. You can't possibly believe what you have just written. This is of satan, and you know it, you slave of satan, and worse, etc., etc., etc.

So at this point, I am not disposed to go through it again. I suspect Bruce has heard it before and just wants a chance to berate what we believe to be the truth. He knows he can go onto the internet and find our exact beliefs, so do it.

And BTW, he has got some things wrong, of course, to make it sound bad. That is the tactic and they play their hand the same way every time.

 

[Peter1000]

We seem to have strayed into Quetzylcoatl, ancient Romans, Phoenicians in 300 BC...

I just want to focus on
WHY IN 1830
was the BOM
written in what was much more like King James English than 1830 American English?

There was no "translation", was there?
There was nothing to translate FROM, was there?

There were ideas floating around about American Indian "Israelis" - there were two different versions of a Spalding account - and there was made up history in King James English, or as close to it as could be written in 1830.

How many witnesses do you need? 3 witnesses saw and touched the plates as they were shown by an angel in the middle of the day. 8 saw the plates and handled them, but there was no angel. JS showed many other people the plates too.

JS had many scribes that helped write down what JS translated. They all testify that he did this work on his own with no notes or from any book, but by the power of God.

So again, how many witnesses do you need to answer your question: There was no translation, was there? Yes, there was according to many witnesses.
There was nothing to translate from, was there? Yes, there was to many witnesses.

So what if there were ideas floating around about Indians/Israelites? What if there was a couple of books that were around with people coming here from the old world?

So what? JS brough forth a book in a time period and a people that scholars know very little about. But yet it reads like JS was there and knew these people, with Jesus Christ as the central theme. Even witnessing that Jesus Christ came to these people in the Americas and promised that he would return.

JS translated the words of the plates into the English language that God directed him to translate. He did not decide to use the KJV language, God did. So you will have to take it up with God as to why JS used KJV English. And yes, maybe God did it to sound more sacred, because it is a sacred book, and He wanted to set it apart as a sacred book. Again, ask God why?

 

[Peter1000]

There is some evidence that around 300 BC some ship wrecked Phoenicians may have landed in South America. They were part of a fleet that was attempting to circumnavigate Africa on a trading voyage only to encounter a great storm off the west coast of Africa. A few ships did make it home.

It is interesting, in the BOM, the major river mentioned is the "Sidon" river. We believe the river got its name from Phoenician sailors that brought the youngest son of Zedekiah (king of Jerusalem when it fell to the Babylonians around 590bc) whose name was Mulek.

The protectors of Mulek hired Phoenician sailors from the port city of Sidon to take an entourage of people from Israel (to escape from Babylonian invasion) to a safe land across the sea, Central America.

When they arrived, they sailed up a large river into the interior and eventually unloaded the people. The people named the river "Sidon" in honor of these brave Phoenican sailors.

You can read about what happened to this group of people in the BOM.

 

[Peter1000]

That has been shown to have been the Vikings, but you guys refuse to believe it. And all the stories revolved around someone who was coming, not someone who had been here and coming back. The stories looked forward, not backward. That is who they thought the Spaniards were, at first.

We refuse to believe it because a white bearded viking did not come out of the sky into Central America and teach these people the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You just simply will not believe that Jesus Christ was actually the white bearded God. As time goes by, the evidence will mount that this is true and a lot of people will join the church because it is only in the BOM that you get a clear picture of who this white bearded God was, Jesus Christ.

He made such a lasting impression that even after 1000 years, the people of this area thought Cortez was Jesus Christ returning. It was the main reason that Cortez was able to conquer the mighty Aztec nation.

 

[Peter1000]

It isn't even in King James English. It's an imitation of this elevated 'churchy' style such as you could expect to find in the KJV and other Bibles from earlier eras when such style was actually rather normal (hence people knew things like how to properly decline the appropriate classes of words), but poorly done. I've posted about this before only to have Mormons complain that the source I pointed them to (Richard Packham's website) is the work of an atheist who also says things about the Bible that Christians would disagree with, so how can I view him as a trustworthy source!? (Nevermind the fact that I was pointing out his language studies, and the English language works the same regardless of the personal religious convictions of whoever is using it.)

As someone with a master's degree in Linguistics (not from an LDS-run university), looking into a question like this provides everything I need to know that Mormonism is a sham, but I can understand Mormons not wanting to face up to that fact, and hence treating everything like it's a matter of scholars' personal opinions, about which any two may differ, even though that is very much not the case (there aren't in fact many different views among disinterested linguists concerning the non-existence of 'Reformed Egyptian', or how pronouns worked in KJV-era English, etc. -- these are things that are as definitively known as anything can be); rather, much LDS-promoted work in this area is quite simply not very scholarly to begin with, for a multitude of reasons I've probably spent the equivalent of years addressing here on CF already.

Are you actually saying that your masters degree in linquistics is a better degree than someone who got their masters degree in linquistics from Brigham Young Universiey, simply because they can see linquistic parallels in the BOM compared to Hebrew writings, and you will not acknowledge such parallels?

That is a sad state of professional courtesy.

 

[Peter1000]

The original KJV contained the Apocrypha.

IT CAME TO PASS that KJV s were printed without it, probably to cut down on printing costs.

I seem to remember some exact phrases from New Testament books in portions of the BOM that were allegedly written well before the New Testament books themselves.

Seeing all the stuff that came up from googling the title of my thread just makes me think of JS as more of a con man and charlatan than I already did.

It is even worse than "JS dreamed it all up from his own mind"

He used multiple sources, designating Isaiah, but I feel at times used NT quotes in portions of BOM allegedly written well before NT was written.

If the true gospel of Jesus Christ was taught to the people in the Americas between 33ad and 420ad, you would expect to see teaching very similar if not almost exactly what you find in the NT. Right?

For instance compare Matthew 16:19 with Helaman 10:7. The same authority was given American prophets as were given Jesus apostles. That would only make sense.

 

[Peter1000]

It seems to me the Book of Mormon was written as a fiction in a style that would give it a veneer of authenticity. I am not sure that it was written as a novel or as a deliberate deception but it certainly ended up as a deception.

Well, the deception has fooled millions of people then since around 1830 when it was published.

It would either have to be the biggest deception ever perpetrated on man, or it is the most wonderful book from God that has been given to men. (and I will say, in conjuction with the bible, because they both were given by God and center on His Son, Jesus Christ).

The BOM for the western world, and the Bible for the eastern world, that finally came together in North America. That is a good story. Prophets in the western hemisphere declare the same message as the prophets in the eastern hemisphere. Go figure, thousands of miles apart, no communication devices, and the same message. That is the result of God declaring His message around the world. It better be similar at least. Right?

 

[mmksparbud]

We refuse to believe it because a white bearded viking did not come out of the sky into Central America and teach these people the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You just simply will not believe that Jesus Christ was actually the white bearded God. As time goes by, the evidence will mount that this is true and a lot of people will join the church because it is only in the BOM that you get a clear picture of who this white bearded God was, Jesus Christ.

He made such a lasting impression that even after 1000 years, the people of this area thought Cortez was Jesus Christ returning. It was the main reason that Cortez was able to conquer the mighty Aztec nation.

No, however, Vikings, are recorded as landing in the Americas, and all that has been shown to you, they arrived by ships. Records indicate they apparently took a few native women with them. And yes, they made quite an impression and they were waiting fir them to return and thought it was Cortez---they thought that the Vi8kings were Gods. Until such archeological evidence shows any such thing, we go by the bible which does not in any way state that Jesus did anything other than sit down at the right hand of Gold and then proceeded to act as our Heavenly High Priest.

 

[Tra Phull]

Acts 3:19-21

Acts 3:21 says Heaven must receive Jesus until the times of restitution of all things

Bible does not say He will leave to go to America

 

[Tra Phull]

As mmksparbud said above, Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father, and that is the last place the Bible has Him.

And that is where He remains until the Times of restitution of all things, according to Acts 3:21

 

[Tra Phull]

Anyway, how come the BOM is in King James English?

 

[He is the way]

Acts 3:19-21

Acts 3:21 says Heaven must receive Jesus until the times of restitution of all things

Bible does not say He will leave to go to America

(New Testament | John 10:16)

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[He is the way]

Anyway, how come the BOM is in King James English?

That is the way God gave it to Joseph Smith word for word.