Does the Doctrine of Hell and ECT Hold up to Scrutiny?

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Der Alte

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Given that this was translated from another language after a few decades of oral transmission, I don't think it makes sense to hang much on a phrase that is used only this one time. Most commentators note the similarity to Dan 12:2, which is not so explicit about the punishment. The Aramaic original could well have been similar.
The presumed Aramaic original.
Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).

 
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Well the literal hell/sheol/hades, is where disembodied souls go! But teh Lake of Fire is an actual physical place because the dead who are lost are rejoined to tehir bodies before being physically cast intot eh place of torment God prepared for the devil and his angels originally!
Our bodies will be resurrected as bodies of a metaphysical nature, so the places they will be shall be metaphysical also.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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Our bodies will be resurrected as bodies of a metaphysical nature, so the places they will be shall be metaphysical also.
Can you expound on the metaphysical part above and the resurrected body.

Are you saying Jesus Resurrected body was not a physical body like our bodies are now ?
 
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Can you expound on the metaphysical part above and the resurrected body.

Are you saying Jesus Resurrected body was not a physical body like our bodies are now ?
Jesus body after His resurrection was not a coarse physical body like before. It was transformed into a glorious substance capable of transcending both time and space. These bodies that we are now are merely "seeds", to use Christ's own analogy. Our resurrected bodies will be more spiritual in nature, like Jesus' body was, as he appeared instantly inside a locked room to speak to His disciples and then disappeared.
 
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Jamdoc

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Our bodies will be resurrected as bodies of a metaphysical nature, so the places they will be shall be metaphysical also.

Can you expound on the metaphysical part above and the resurrected body.

Are you saying Jesus Resurrected body was not a physical body like our bodies are now ?

It's a different body but it's still physical. Jesus still bore the wounds from His crucifixion, could eat and drink, and could be touched.
John chapters 20&21 show that this was a PHYSICAL resurrection.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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It's a different body but it's still physical. Jesus still bore the wounds from His crucifixion, could eat and drink, and could be touched.
John chapters 20&21 show that this was a PHYSICAL resurrection.
Yes indeed you are spot on !
 
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It's a different body but it's still physical. Jesus still bore the wounds from His crucifixion, could eat and drink, and could be touched.
John chapters 20&21 show that this was a PHYSICAL resurrection.
Physical, yes, but not in the same way that they are physical presently.
See 1 Corinthians 15:35-49
 
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Saint Steven

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Jesus died to save the world from physical death (deliver us from hades), and from the wrath of God or fire of His correction.
I think we will all need correction. No one will be saved from that.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.
 
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Saint Steven

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Jesus died to save the world from physical death (deliver us from hades), and from the wrath of God or fire of His correction.
I would say that Jesus died to save us from the penalty of sin, spiritual death, separation from God. And the price he paid was for all humankind.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
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Saint Steven said:
I think we will all need correction. no one will be saved from that.
Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.
The usual out-of-context proof. UR-ites evidently do not know what salted means. Salt does not save, it has no salvivic property. The meat that the salt is placed on must be acceptable before it is offered. It cannot be made acceptable by the salt.
Leviticus 2:13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Now the proof text.
Mark 9:49
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
Every one cannot mean all mankind it can only mean every one who is saved. If they are not acceptable, salt will not make them acceptable.
 
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Jamdoc

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Physical, yes, but not in the same way that they are physical presently.
See 1 Corinthians 15:35-49

It'll be different but still tangible, it won't be this floaty disincorporated spirit nonsense that some people spout.
 
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Running2win

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Yes we like to believe in the everlasting life, bliss and well being of the righteous but the scriptures use the same word everlasting for the punishment of the wicked and that their torment never ends. Most people like to pick and choose what to believe that fits into their own system and reject the the things they don't like and make excuses for God.

Gods word is clear there is both everlasting/eternal bliss for the righteous and eternal torment/punishment for the wicked.

hope this helps !!!

Short and sweet and correct!:oldthumbsup:

The blatant disregard for the inspiration of the Scriptures and the plain sense words of Jesus is deafening on such a key doctrine!

Which of you will find fault in your maker? Who are you to Question what is right for God to do. God can and will do what He wants without your morale judgments against His character!

If God does not measure up to the little god you have made in your mind. Why do yo follow Him? :scratch:

1Then the LORD said to Job,

2“Will the faultfinder contend with the Almighty?
Let him who reproves God answer it.”


6Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm and said,

7“Now gird up your loins like a man;
I will ask you, and you instruct Me.

8“Will you really annul My judgment?
Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?


9“Or do you have an arm like God,
And can you thunder with a voice like His?

10“Adorn yourself with eminence and dignity,
And clothe yourself with honor and majesty.

11“Pour out the overflowings of your anger,
And look on everyone who is proud, and make him low.

12“Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him,
And tread down the wicked where they stand.


13“Hide them in the dust together;
Bind them in the hidden place.

14“Then I will also confess to you,
That your own right hand can save you.


9“What sorrow awaits those who argue with their Creator.

Does a clay pot argue with its maker?

Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying,

‘Stop, you’re doing it wrong!’


Does the pot exclaim,

‘How clumsy can you be?’


10How terrible it would be if a newborn baby said to its father,

‘Why was I born?’

or if it said to its mother,

‘Why did you make me this way?’”



11This is what the LORD says—

the Holy One of Israel and your Creator:

“Do you question what I do for my children?

Do you give me orders about the work of my hands?

12I am the one who made the earth

and created people to live on it.

With my hands I stretched out the heavens.

All the stars are at my command.
 
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It'll be different but still tangible, it won't be this floaty disincorporated spirit nonsense that some people spout.
But it will be a spiritual body, as attested by the Scripture I provided. I can't know exactly what it means to be raised a spiritual body. It hasn't happened to me yet.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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• Saint Cyprian of Carthage - The Treatises of Cyprian - Treatise 5 (V) -
An Address to Demetrianus - 24.
(200-258 A.D.)

"An Ever-Burning Gehenna Will Burn Up The Condemned, and A Punishment Devouring With Living Flames; Nor Will There Be Any Source Whence At Any Time They May Have Either Respite Or End To Their Torments.
Souls With Their Bodies Will Be Reserved In Infinite Tortures For Suffering."

0831cyprian-of-carthage0012.jpg





• St. Irenaeus of Lyons - Against Heresies 4:28:2 (130-189 A.D.)

"Thus also The Punishment of those who do not believe the Word of God, and despise his advent, and are turned away backwards, is increased; Being Not Merely Temporal, But Eternal. For to whomever the Lord shall say, “Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire” [Mt 25:41],
These Will Be Damned Forever!"


6238793829_1cdefbf832_b.jpg





• Saint Hippolytus of Rome - Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus - Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical - Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe - 3.
(170–235 A.D.)

3.
..... "And To The Lovers Of Iniquity Shall Be Given Eternal Punishment. And The Fire which is Un-quenchable and Without End Awaits These Latter, and a certain Fiery Worm which dieth not, and which does not waste the body, But Continues Bursting Forth From The Body With Unending Pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; No Death Will Deliver Them From Punishment; no voice of interceding friends will profit them."




• Saint Hippolytus of Rome - Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus -
Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical
- Against Plato, on the Cause of the Universe - 187 - 1. and 3.
(170–235 A.D.)

1.

And this is the passage regarding demons. But now we must speak of Hades, in which
"The Souls" Both Of The Righteous And The Unrighteous Are Detained.
Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there. This locality has been destined to be as it were a guard-house for souls, at which the angels are stationed as guards, distributing according to each one's deeds The Temporary Punishments for (different) characters. And in this locality there is a certain place set apart by itself, A Lake Of Unquenchable Fire, into which we suppose no one has ever yet been cast; for it is prepared against the day determined by God, in which one sentence of righteous judgment shall be justly applied to all.
And The Unrighteous, and those who believed not God, who have honoured as God the vain works of the hands of men, idols fashioned (by themselves), Shall Be Sentenced To This Endless Punishment. But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host. And when those who are conducted by the angels appointed unto the souls have passed through this gate, they do not proceed on one and the same way; but the righteous, being conducted in the light toward the right, and being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, are brought to a locality full of light. And there the righteous from the beginning dwell, not ruled by necessity, but enjoying always the contemplation of the blessings which are in their view, and delighting themselves with the expectation of others ever new, and deeming those ever better than these. And that place brings no toils to them. There, there is neither fierce heat, nor cold, nor thorn; but the face of the fathers and the righteous is seen to be always smiling, as they wait for the rest and eternal revival in heaven which succeed this location. And we call it by the name Abraham's bosom. But The Unrighteous are dragged toward the left by Angels Who Are Ministers Of Punishment, and they go of their own accord no longer, but are dragged by force as prisoners. And the angels appointed over them send them along, reproaching them and threatening them with an eye of terror, forcing them down into the lower parts. And when they are brought there, those appointed to that service drag them on to the confines or hell. And those who are so near Hear Incessantly The Agitation,
And Feel The Hot Smoke
. And when that vision is so near, as They See The Terrible And Excessively Glowing Spectacle Of The Fire, They Shudder In Horror At The Expectation Of The Future Judgment, (as if they were) Already Feeling The Power Of Their Punishment.
And again, where they see the place of the fathers and the righteous, they are also punished there. For a deep and vast abyss is set there in the midst, so that neither can any of the righteous in sympathy think to pass it, nor any of the unrighteous dare to cross it.


hippolytus-fresco.jpg





• Clement of Rome - (35-99 A.D.)


''If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest, but if not, if we neglect his commandments, Nothing Will Rescue Us From Eternal Punishment.''
• Second Clement 5:5



''So also let us, while we are in this world, repent with our whole heart of the evil things which we have done in the flesh, that we may be saved by the Lord,
while we have yet time for repentance.''
• Second Clement 8:4



''After we have gone out of the world, no further power of confessing or repenting will belong to us.''
• Second Clement 8:5


Rutler-CLEMENT.jpg





• Saint Justin Martyr - First Apology of Justin - God's Care for Men - Chapter 28 (XXVIII)
(100-165 A.D.)

"For among us The Prince of The Wicked Spirits is called The Serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into The Fire with his host, And The Men Who Follow Him, And Would Be Punished For An Endless Duration, Christ Foretold."



• Saint Justin Martyr - First Apology of Justin - Chapter 8 (VIII) - Christians Confess Their Faith in God - (100-165 A.D.)

"And we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, And Upon The Wicked In The Same Bodies United Again To Their Spirits Which Are Now To Undergo Everlasting Punishment ; and not only, as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if any one say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of doing any harm."



• Saint Justin Martyr - The First Apology of Justin - Chapter 52 - (100-165 A.D.)

"For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, And Shall Send Those Of The Wicked, Endued With Eternal Sensibility, Into Everlasting Fire With The Wicked Devils."


justin-martyr.jpg





• Holy Saint Martyr Polycarp - The letter of the Smyrnaeans or the Martyrdom of Polycarp
(69-155 A.D.)


Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They Kept Before Their Eyes Their Escape From The Eternal And Unquenchable Fire"

stpolycarp.jpg


polycarp_martyrdom-768x774.jpg





• Saint John Chrysostom
- Homily 9 (IX) on First Corinthians -
(349-407 A.D.)

"This is no small subject of enquiry which we propose, but rather about things which are of the first necessity and which all men enquire about; Namely, Whether Hell Fire Have Any End.
For That IT HATH NO END Christ Indeed Declared When He Said, "Their Fire Shall Not Be Quenched, And Their Worm Shall Not Die."


1200px-Johnchrysostom.jpg





• Saint Lactantius
- The Divine Institutes - Book 7 (VII.) Of a Happy Life - Chapter 21. (XXI.) - Of the Torments and Punishments of Souls.
(240-320 A.D.)

"But, however, The Sacred Writings Inform Us in what manner The Wicked Are To Undergo Punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, But Indestructible, And Abiding For Ever, That It May Be Able To Hold Out Against Tortures And Everlasting Fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material."

lactantius.jpg





• Tatian the Assyrian - Address of Tatian to the Greeks - Chapter 14. (XIV)
(120-180 A.D.)

"And as we, to whom it now easily happens To Die, Afterwards Receive The Immortal With Enjoyment,
Or The Painful With Immortality ......."

tatian.jpg


.
 
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Daniel9v9

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To deny the clear Scriptural teaching of damnation is not kind or loving - it's the exact opposite. It's a doctrine that prepares people for hell, which is what it sets out to deny, so there's a great and terrible irony to it. It's a superficial idea based on poor exegesis and very selective reading, and it betrays a lack of understanding regarding sin and death. It overthrows the Gospel and it is anti-Christian, because it amounts to teach that everyone who denies the person and works Jesus Christ - God's grace - and the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit - will still have life, when the Bible says nothing of sorts, but in fact, explicitly teaches otherwise.

Rather than going through the entire OP post item by item, I think it should be sufficient to summerise and say that (1) there are many references to damnation in Scripture, and it is explained through a variety of ways, including, death, judgment, shame, torment, fire, darkness, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, where the worms never die etc. (2) Our Lord Jesus Christ clearly teaches that some will be at His right and some at His left; some will be in the Kingdom of God, and some will be cast away from God's presence. (3) For God to punish evil is in and of itself a good thing and not contrary to God's good nature. To assume that God is evil for punishing sinners betrays a failure to understand God's Law and Gospel, His righteousness and grace.

I would summarise all of this even further to this: You cannot find the teaching that whoever disbelieves in Jesus will still have life, anywhere in Scriptures, but this is what a denial of hell teaches. Scriptures plainly say that whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. This is why the Church has always confessed salvation and damnation in our creeds.

Furthermore, the Didache, perhaps the earliest Christian catechism we have clearly teaches the Two Ways, so there is no doubt as to how they understood the Bible. That some later Fathers would develop a different understanding does not undermine this, for this has always been the overwhelming position of the Church, because that's simply what the Bible teaches.
 
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I follow Christ. That is why I am a Christian.

IF Hell is just a made up place for the sake of literature... why would Jesus warn that it is better I live life maimed than to be cast into it.

IF you do not want to believe that a hell exists, that is your choice. However, how can you claim to follow the one that warns against this place that "does not exist"?

Call this place eternal fire, call it hell, call it an eternity in Florida.... whatever you choose to call it, Jesus warned against it. IF you believe Him to be who He says He is.... why do you ignore His warnings?

Matthew 18:8-9
 
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Zao is life

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I would say that Jesus died to save us from the penalty of sin, spiritual death, separation from God. And the price he paid was for all humankind.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
Physical death and spiritual death (separation from God) are part of the consequences of, and the penalty of sin.

Jesus took our sin upon Himself, bearing all our iniquity in His own body on the cross, and all those who are spiritually born from above by the Spirit of Christ died with Him and rose with Him, and will rise bodily because of His resurrection, because He is the first-fruits of the resurrection, and we live forever even now, because our life is in Christ.

I don't know what will happen with those who are never born from above by the Spirit of Christ. I know that Jesus preached the gospel in hades by the Spirit, so there is a possibility that the gospel is known in hades. I don't know if there is an opportunity for the souls in hades to hear the gospel in hades and repent (since there was an opportunity for the souls in prison whom Jesus preached the gospel to when He died).
 
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martymonster

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After lots of discussion on this topic my conclusion is that for many people the whole point of Christ is to save Christians from hell. Without hell, they don’t see any point to his death or for us following Christ.

It's sad, but Christ is only fire insurance, to most "christians"
 
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martymonster

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You didn't look very well.

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; Matthew 25:41 (NRSV)

It would have been good if God had warned Adam and Eve about hell, if it had already been created.
 
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Physical death and spiritual death (separation from God) are part of the consequences of, and the penalty of sin.

Jesus took our sin upon Himself, bearing all our iniquity in His own body on the cross, and all those who are spiritually born from above by the Spirit of Christ died with Him and rose with Him, and will rise bodily because of His resurrection, because He is the first-fruits of the resurrection, and we live forever even now, because our life is in Christ.

I don't know what will happen with those who are never born from above by the Spirit of Christ. I know that Jesus preached the gospel in hades by the Spirit, so there is a possibility that the gospel is known in hades. I don't know if there is an opportunity for the souls in hades to hear the gospel in hades and repent (since there was an opportunity for the souls in prison whom Jesus preached the gospel to when He died).
There are those who belong to Christ who are not the firstfruits. Note vs 22. (all)

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
 
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