Does the Doctrine of Hell and ECT Hold up to Scrutiny?

[Saint Steven]

#4. Everyone has their name in Gods book starting out, but only the chosen ones will remain and their names will not be blotted out, but found in the Lambs book of life. All the rest will be judged by their works at the great white throne judgement. If you are not written in the Lambs book of life, you are thrown in the lake of fire.

This point is in conflict with your other points. How is it that fallen humankind is in the book of life BEFORE God blots them out? Are you claiming that we are born innocent of sin?

 

[Saint Steven]

I think many who argue for Apocatastasis do believe in a loving God, but they sadly often confuse God's righteousness for evil, which is a terrible mistake. It betrays a lack of understanding regarding the depth and severity of sin. Damnation is a severe punishment because sin is very severe - it's nothing less than rejection and rebellion towards God - an attempt to overthrow God in an effort to crown oneself "lord". Very simply: God is good and the source of all that is good. So, those who reject God reject what is good, which is evil, and God punishes evil, which is good.

Even in human justice systems we want the punishment to fit the crime. And make laws against cruel and unusual punishment. And sentences for imprisonment can never exceed the lifetime of the prisoner. Yet you (collectively) claim that God has with both malice and forethought created (designed) a way to inflict unimaginable and endless torment on those created in his own image. While you shrug it off as justice. Claiming the punishment fits the crime. Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[Running2win]

This point is in conflict with your other points. How is it that fallen humankind is in the book of life BEFORE God blots them out? Are you claiming that we are born innocent of sin?

You have got a serious bone to pick with God. Don't you.

3A whip is for the horse, a bridle for the donkey,
And a rod for the back of fools.

4Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.

5Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
That he not be wise in his own eyes.

 

[Saint Steven]

You have got a serious bone to pick with God. Don't you.

No. My argument is with those who claim Jesus is an eternal failure.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

 

[Saint Steven]

You have got a serious bone to pick with God. Don't you.

3A whip is for the horse, a bridle for the donkey,
And a rod for the back of fools.

4Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Or you will also be like him.

5Answer a fool as his folly deserves,
That he not be wise in his own eyes.

This doesn't answer my questions about your point #4.

Saint Steven said: ↑
This point is in conflict with your other points. How is it that fallen humankind is in the book of life BEFORE God blots them out? Are you claiming that we are born innocent of sin?

 

[Daniel9v9]

It's difficult to do that from a Damnationist biased text. But they did leave me some to work with. Try these on for size. Through one righteous act came justification and life for all people. God is reconciling all things to himself.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Context is important. Paul is absolutely not teaching Apocatastasis, for this is very clear if you read the epistles in their full context.

At the beginning of Romans 5, Paul says: "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith ..." That is, whoever believes in the person and works of Christ, which concurs with everything else in Scripture. It's not talking about those who reject God's grace through sin, unbelief and rebellion. This also becomes exceedingly clear when reading Romans 3 and 4. It's important to bear in mind what Paul writes in the verses before. Romans, in particular, follows a clear thought and argument that is well worth observing. I'm happy to elaborate that on this, but the outline becomes pretty clear if you read the entire epistle. It can be summarised as justification by God's grace through faith.

Same with Colossians. Paul is most certainly not speaking to unbelievers and unrepentant sinners, but comforting the Church at Colossae. We can know this because throughout the epistle Paul makes a distinction between those who are in Christ and those who are not. For example, he's talking specifically to those who have faith in Christ and are baptised into his death and raised into new life into Him, and he makes contrasts to false religion and unholy living. To make this point even more clear, remember what Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, that unrepentant sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God.

When judging, what are the options for a verdict? Is not the great and rich mercy of God unfailing? Jesus taught us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies. What should then expect from God in this regard? Something less than the perfection he expects from us. We should love our enemies while he plans to incinerate his? What's wrong with this picture?

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Yes, God does love the world, and we know from His Law and Gospel what this means. It means that while we were enemies of God, dead in sin and children of wrath, God sent His only Son to die for the sins of the world, so that everyone who believes in Him will have life, but those who reject Him will be condemned. Once again, there is no text in Scriptures that say "Whoever disbelieve in Jesus will have life", but this is what Apocatastasis teaches.

Matthew 5:43-48 has two primary purposes: (1) It's to call people to repentance, because we know we are not perfect, but through faith in Christ, we are graciously clothed with His righteousness. And (2) It's a call to sanctification for those who have been justified by faith. That is, we are gradually moulded into the likeness of Christ, which is the fruit and works of the Holy Spirit. Christ is not saying: "Be perfect and merit salvation", but He is calling people to faith in Himself.

Even in human justice systems we want the punishment to fit the crime. And make laws against cruel and unusual punishment. And sentences for imprisonment can never exceed the lifetime of the prisoner. Yet you (collectively) claim that God has with both malice and forethought created (designed) a way to inflict unimaginable and endless torment on those created in his own image. While you shrug it off as justice. Claiming the punishment fits the crime. Am I understanding you correctly?

No, here you seem to be confusing High Calvinism and the philosophical Problem of Evil with Scripture.

Let me be very clear:
God is good and holy. He is love. He is not the source, creator or cause of evil. He does not tempt people to sin, nor does He impute or bestow moral evil upon people. God does not create sinners from eternity and predestine them to damnation. Damnation is merited solely by the human will. (High Calvinism rejected)

Biblical scholars have attempted to solve the philosophical Problem of Evil through a variety of ways, and I'll gladly expand on this, but for efficiency's sake, let me just state that the Problem of Evil is a philosophical concept that doesn't fit Scriptures. It has an underlying philosophy and worldview that doesn't match the thoughts and themes of God's Word. It's really a different framework and it can't and shouldn't be forced on Scriptures. The Bible, simply speaking, teaches that salvation, from beginning to end, is entirely from God. But damnation, from beginning to end, is entirely from man. This is one of several holy mysteries apprehended through faith. And we can best understand it when studying the cross, where all of Scripture culminates into one event: Here we see the depth of sin, God's wrath, God's love, and God's faithfulness all at once. Apocatastasis fails to see this.

Simply speaking, it's impossible to read 2 Peter 2, for example, and come to a conclusion that supports Apocatastasis. All of the Bible and Church history is saturated with the Two Ways doctrine.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Christ could materialize his flesh and bone inside of a room and then dematerialize it and be gone. So no, His flesh and bone is not like our flesh and bone. It is different, being more spiritual and less coursely carnal than before His resurrection. The new creation will be supernatural, and this pretty much means that it will be more spiritual.

First of all scripture never once says or implies Jesus body materializes and de-materializes. Secondly below we see the same thing happen with Philip who disappears suddenly in one city and then appears in an entirely different city miles away and Philip had a real physical material body.

Acts 8:39-40
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

 

[truefiction1]

First of all scripture never once says or implies Jesus body materializes and de-materializes. Secondly below we see the same thing happen with Philip who disappears suddenly in one city and then appears in an entirely different city miles away and Philip had a real physical material body.

Acts 8:39-40
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. 40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and traveled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

You seem intent on convincing
me, for some reason, that both the flesh that Christ had after the resurrection and that which we will have, is far more akin to the flesh that we currently have than what is indicated both in Holy Scripture and has always been the teaching of the Holy Church. Or perhaps I'm just not understanding you. You wish to emphasize the fact that Resurrection bodies are physical bodies. This is fine. I get that. This is taught both by Holy Scripture and the Holy Church.

But I wish to emphasize the fact that Resurrection bodies are far more wondrous beyond compare than bodies as we currently know them. Since both Holy Scripture and the Holy Church has always emphasized this, then I am also fine in doing so.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Even in human justice systems we want the punishment to fit the crime. And make laws against cruel and unusual punishment. And sentences for imprisonment can never exceed the lifetime of the prisoner. Yet you (collectively) claim that God has with both malice and forethought created (designed) a way to inflict unimaginable and endless torment on those created in his own image. While you shrug it off as justice. Claiming the punishment fits the crime. Am I understanding you correctly?

UR-ites read only their out-of-context proof texts and either ignore or twist verses which contradict the UR agenda e.g. Matt 25:46. Here is a version which they cannot claim is biased or mistranslated.
…..Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the “literal” Greek Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aiōnios,”“kolasis” etc?
EOB, footnote pg. 180

“Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be
luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be
confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the
damned (“the lake of’ fire”).”​

= = = = = = = = = =
The Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96

Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.​

= = = = = = = = = =

KJV Romans 16:26 [EOB 14:25]
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αιωνιου/aiōniou] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, the book of Romans, uses αιωνιου/aiōniou, in Rom 16:26 synonymous with αιδιος/aidios in Rom 1:20, below.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.​

Scholars unanimously agree that “aidios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
This shows conclusively that “aionios” means “eternal/everlasting.”
= = = = = = = =
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be viewed or D/L at the above link. For any doubts/questions about the EOB version please read the 200 page preface which documents the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

 

[Der Alte]

...

No. My argument is with those who claim Jesus is an eternal failure.
1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

The same Jesus who said,

15 so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his uniquely-begotten Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 Certainly, God did not send his Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world should be saved through him.[John 3;15-17]
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Jn 3:15–17). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

Also said,

18 Anyone who believes in him is not judged, but whoever does not believe has already been judged, because such a person has not believed in the Name of the only-begotten Son. John 3:18​

And the same Jesus also said.

21 It is not everyone who tells me, ‘Lord, Lord’ who will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will tell me in that Day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your Name, cast out demons in your Name, and do many deeds of power in your Name?’ 23 Then I will tell them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from me, you who do what is wicked.’
Cleenewerck, L. (Ed.). (2011). The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible: New Testament (Mt 7:21–22). Laurent A. Cleenewerck.​

That day vs. 22 means the Day of Judgement. There is no reconciliation after "judgement day" and "I never knew you! Depart from me" Mt 7:23.
Jesus did not say some day He said "Never!" When Jesus says "never" He means <=Never!=>

 

[Lazarus Short]

Note: "Judged" does not mean "condemned" or "damned." Just saying...

 

[St. Helens]

ADMIN HAT ON

ADMIN HAT OFF​

 

[ewq1938]