Does the Doctrine of Hell and ECT Hold up to Scrutiny?

[Der Alte]

And biology says there is male and female.... yet there are anomalies where a person is born with both. The exception doesnt become the rule just because one feels it should.
It is no different when it comes to salvation through Christ. The rule is, by faith alone. God will judge the "anomalies" as He sees fit.
Like it or not, there are times when it is a matter of Gods judgement, not mans.
God knows every detail, is righteous and Holy and His judgments are correct. Unlike man His judgement is based on ALL information, not the half knowledge, distorted "truths", assumptions and opinions of men.

My view on transgender. There are only 2 genders male and female. See Gen.1 A male who is "transgendered" still has male DNA. He is a male and vice versa for females.
If a "transgendered" person is burned beyond recognition or the body decomposes and only the skeleton remains how do Drs. determine that they were transgendered? They can't. Female and male skeletons are different. If so-called scientists can create DNA for the imagined other genders only then will I accept it.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Thank you, all of physical nature, everywhere, will be different when God transforms it into "a new heaven and a new earth" as proclaimed in Scripture. Our physical nature becoming one with the spiritual in a way not fully known to any of us yet.

Yet Jesus was Resurrected from the dead in the same body that was in the grave which still retains the marks from His crucifixion. His body is real FLESH and BONES. He ate food with His mouth, teeth and into His stomach went the food. His flesh and bone body has hands, feet, arms, legs, joints, bones, eyes, ears, hair etc......

Spiritual does not mean immaterial as Paul refers to in many instances below:

He talks about the spiritual man
He talks about the spiritual food(manna)
He talks about spiritual Rock( physical rock in the wilderness wanderings)
He talks about the spiritual drink from the rock(physical water)

Phil 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
NASB

Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
NASB

Believers bodies will be transformed from its current state which is corrupt, sinful mortal to a body like His which Incorruptible, Holy/Sinless and Immortal in the Resurrection as per 1 Cor 15, Romans 8:11, Phil 3:21.

And when we compare the above with Paul in these passages below we see that the body(soma) in the context is a real material body which is physical in the Resurrection but controlled completely by the Spirit in the afterlife.

Natural(psychikos) body
Spiritual(pneumatikos) body


1 Cor 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Below we see how Paul uses and contrasts the words natural (psychikos) and spiritual (pneumatikos) below;


1 Cor 2:14-16
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.

Paul is clearly contrasting the unsaved with the saved with the natural man and spiritual man. One is controlled by the natural or the flesh while the other is controlled by the spirit/spiritual- Holy Spirit. Just like in 1 Cor 15:44 where Paul is contrasting the natural body that is controlled by the flesh with the spiritual body that is controlled by the Spirit. Both are real physical bodies but the difference is one is controlled by the flesh which is carnal and the other is controlled by the Spirit and is spiritual. One has the appetites and desires of the flesh while the other has appetites and desires controlled by the Spirit. Hence a spiritual body is one that is controlled by the Spirit of God in the Resurrection.

Paul’s usage below of spiritual(pneumatikos) in 1 Cor 10 where he calls the rock, food and drink spiritual it does not mean an immaterial rock, food and drink but a real Rock, Manna and Water which were with the Israelites in the wilderness wanderings.

1 Cor 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from aspiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Now Paul drives home the point of our new literal physical bodies below in heaven from the text in 2nd Cor 5 below;

2 Cor 5:1-5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

You see there is no bodiless spirit men in heaven unclothed(no body) but indeed with a heavenly body(like Jesus) has now in heaven which is flesh and bones like He said His Resurrected body was to His Disciples.

hope this helps,

 

[nolidad]

Our bodies will be resurrected as bodies of a metaphysical nature, so the places they will be shall be metaphysical also.

Well As Jesus physically rose from th edead with a glorified physical body, so shall we! I won't speculate as to the composition of that body. We just know it will have substance and can be seen!

 

[hedrick]

One thing that seems clear to me is the difficulty of the evidence. What one person thinks clearly supports him others don’t. One important example is the meaning of aionios. I’ve always been suspicious of universalist claims that it means “for an age.” How it also isn’t the specific term for endless. That’s aidios. I’ve started reading Ramelli’s book “A Larger Hope.” Her understanding is consistent with the entry in TDNT, that it isn’t explicitly endless, but is beyond the current finite world. TDNT points out uses where it simply refers to things of God. But where it talks about time, it’s probably something like “in eternity,” i.e. in the realm beyond current time. If so, aionios punishment may simply be what we’d call eschatological punishment.

This also affects the assessment of patristic evidence. As a non-expert, my impression is that classifying authors as universalist or anti-universalist tends not to depend upon explicit treatment of the topic, but in some cases their own of terms like eternal punishment. There are also key authors about whom experts disagree.

There are also some interesting Biblical references. E.g. Sodom is the stock examples of people subject to eternal punishment. Yet Ezek 16:53 ff says that Sodom will be restored.

John is often quoted as predestinarian, and as saying that Christ will save only a limited number of people given to him. Yet John 17:2 can reasonably be translated as saying that God gave all people to him so he can give them eternal life, as can John 1:4 and 12:32.

Concepts of Hades and Gehenna are controversial for the obvious reasons that 1st Cent Jews seem to have disagreed about as much as 21st Cent Christians.

It’s all very interesting. I don't think people make their decision based on this kind of evidence, but rather on the broader impression in the NT of God's character. I would agree. I can't fathom anyone who would think God would torment someone forever or allow it to be done.

 

[Der Alte]

One thing that seems clear to me is the difficulty of the evidence. What one person thinks clearly supports him others don’t. One important example is the meaning of aionios. I’ve always been suspicious of universalist claims that it means “for an age.” How it also isn’t the specific term for endless. That’s aidios. I’ve started reading Ramelli’s book “A Larger Hope.” Her understanding is consistent with the entry in TDNT, that it isn’t explicitly endless, but is beyond the current finite world. TDNT points out uses where it simply refers to things of God. But where it talks about time, it’s probably something like “in eternity,” i.e. in the realm beyond current time. If so, aionios punishment may simply be what we’d call eschatological punishment.
This also affects the assessment of patristic evidence. As a non-expert, my impression is that classifying authors as universalist or anti-universalist tends not to depend upon explicit treatment of the topic, but in some cases their own of terms like eternal punishment. There are also key authors about whom experts disagree.
There are also some interesting Biblical references. E.g. Sodom is the stock examples of people subject to eternal punishment. Yet Ezek 16:53 ff says that Sodom will be restored.
John is often quoted as predestinarian, and as saying that Christ will save only a limited number of people given to him. Yet John 17:2 can reasonably be translated as saying that God gave all people to him so he can give them eternal life, as can John 1:4 and 12:32.
Concepts of Hades and Gehenna are controversial for the obvious reasons that 1st Cent Jews seem to have disagreed about as much as 21st Cent Christians.
It’s all very interesting. I don't think people make their decision based on this kind of evidence, but rather on the broader impression in the NT of God's character. I would agree. I can't fathom anyone who would think God would torment someone forever or allow it to be done.

I have been active at this forum for me than 2 decades. I have heard the standard UR arguments and proof texts many times. As pointed out here the standard UR argument is "'aionios' NEVER means eternal it always means the nonsensical age-during" To make "aionios" fit their UR agenda they have changed the adjective "aionios" into a noun and a preposition. And any lexicon which shows "aionios" to mean "eternal" is dismissed out of hand as biased.
I decided to review every occurrence of aionios in the NT.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated eternal 42x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated everlasting 25x in the N.T.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
But neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] ​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.[/indent]

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See note [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. ​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[Character Limit continued next post]

 

[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

[fn]●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.
Paul used the word “aionios” 23 times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul contrasts “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul paired “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul contrasts “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul contrasts “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios” Paul paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse Paul contrasts “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​

In this verse Paul pairs “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse Paul pairs “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul contrasts “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse Paul paired “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter pairs “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.​

In this verse Peter contrasted “aionios” with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

 

[Saint Steven]

There is salvation, namely, through Christ, and damnation for all who reject God's grace.

So you are claiming that everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ? I would say that countless billions have not.

 

[Saint Steven]

Oh, you didn't get the memo.
9“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making say, ‘He has no hands’?

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

That doesn't answer my question. Try again.

Saint Steven said: ↑
So, you are claiming that everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ in this lifetime? Seems to me that countless billions have not.

 

[Saint Steven]

Nope, not at all. You are twisting my words to fit your narrative.

The VERY word of God makes the exception, not I. Acts 17:30 Speaks of forgiveness in times of ignorance... if so for sin... how much more so if the opportunity to know Christ was not presented but one that would have been fully devoted had they been given that opportunity?

My doctrine, remains in tact... whether you choose to agree or not.

How is that not "an exception for ignorance"? Just as I said.

Saint Steven said: ↑
So, you are making an exception for ignorance then?
Making an opportunity for a decision in the afterlife. What became of your doctrine?

 

[hedrick]

I have been active at this forum for me than 2 decades. I have heard the standard UR arguments and proof texts many times. As pointed out here the standard UR argument is "'aionios' NEVER means eternal it always means the nonsensical age-during" To make "aionios" fit their UR agenda they have changed the adjective "aionios" into a noun and a preposition. And any lexicon which shows "aionios" to mean "eternal" is dismissed out of hand as biased.

I can use a concordance too. Please start by looking at what I said. It wasn't that.

As far as I can tell it is sometimes used to refer to things associated with God (e.g. "eternal doors" of the temple), but in the relevant passages means beyond time, though the best translation would probably be eschatological.

Eternal is an acceptable translation, because people are sufficiently familiar with its non-literal uses in the Bible that it's consistent with the whole range of possible meanings. Most people are used to eternal fires that aren't, and eternal doors that it's only when it comes to hell that people are likely to misinterpret.

It's quite possible that things it describes are of infinite duration, but you'd have to tell from context. In many of these cases I'm not sure we can tell.

 

[Der Alte]

...

Right. Damnationists claim that God predestined those he will incinerate for all eternity without cause or hope of escape.

This is another tactic of UR-ites, demonize those who do not agree with UR doctrine. "Damnationists""incinerate" Not everyone who does not accept UR doctrine believes that God has predestined some to be saved and others to be condemned. Only a small faction, Calvinists, believe that.

 

[Der Alte]

I can use a concordance too. Please start by looking at what I said. It wasn't that.
As far as I can tell it is sometimes used to refer to things associated with God (e.g. "eternal doors" of the temple), but in the relevant passages means beyond time, though the best translation would probably be eschatological.
Eternal is an acceptable translation, because people are sufficiently familiar with its non-literal uses in the Bible that it's consistent with the whole range of possible meanings.
It's quite possible that things it describes are of infinite duration, but you'd have to tell from context. In many of these cases I'm not sure we can tell.

I was mostly supportive of your previous post.
I didn't consult a concordance. Everything I posted was from my own personal review of every occurrence of aionios in the NT. I am retired times 3, 22 years 1 career, 25 years a second career and 65 years SS so I have ample time to do things like this.
My findings again.
“aionios” occurs 72 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
93% of the occurrences "aionios" is translated eternal/everlasting.
It is only translated "world " 5 times or 7% of the occurrences.
What can we derive from all that? I conclude that the primary meaning of "aionios" is eternal/everlasting and it is used figuratively a few times.
Also in the 26 vss. I listed above "aionios" is defined/described as eternal/everlasting.
I did not find any occurrences of "aionios" where it was similarly described or defined as a period less than eternal.

 

[hedrick]

I did not find any occurrences of "aionios" where it was similarly described or defined as a period less than eternal.

I'm not quite sure how you're qualifying what occurrences you look at. I found 66 of them.

Mark 3:29. It's not a sin of infinite duration.
Rom 16:25-26. The secret wasn't kept for an infinite duration. [translated "long ages", because of course it's not always infinite duration]
1 Cor 4:17. Not sure eternal weight of glory is about duration.
Philemon 15. Probably isn't referring to eschatology. Philemon wasn't back for an infinite duration [This isn't translated eternal, but that's the point. It can be just a long time.]
Heb 6:2. I doubt that act of judgement goes on forever, but it is eschatological.
Jude 7. Sodom's fire isn't literally eternal, and Ezek even says Sodom will be restored.

Some of the uses refer to things that don't end but that's probably not the point, e.g eternal God, eternal salvation, and Rev 14:6 eternal Gospel. One of the meanings of eternal is things pertaining to God. That's probably the meaning there.

Of course we probably agree that some uses of the term aren't infinite duration. At least I hope we do. But the exceptions should cast doubt on the word being primarily about duration, since the most common ("eternal life") is probably not about duration either. In the relevant contexts, eschatological seems the most accurate.

I'm not saying that eternal life ends, but I'm also not so sure that it's talking about time like we're used to but going on forever. It might well be out of time. My suspicion has always been that God's not in our kind of time. Of course eternal punishment wouldn't be either, but more sophisticated Catholic ideas about purgatory generally said that durations weren't meant to be taken literally. (Not that I believe in purgatory. I have issues with many aspects, but it's a traditional "temporary" punishment.)

 

[truefiction1]

Yet Jesus was Resurrected from the dead in the same body that was in the grave which still retains the marks from His crucifixion. His body is real FLESH and BONES. He ate food with His mouth, teeth and into His stomach went the food. His flesh and bone body has hands, feet, arms, legs, joints, bones, eyes, ears, hair etc......

Spiritual does not mean immaterial as Paul refers to in many instances below:

He talks about the spiritual man
He talks about the spiritual food(manna)
He talks about spiritual Rock( physical rock in the wilderness wanderings)
He talks about the spiritual drink from the rock(physical water)

Phil 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
NASB

Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
NASB

Believers bodies will be transformed from its current state which is corrupt, sinful mortal to a body like His which Incorruptible, Holy/Sinless and Immortal in the Resurrection as per 1 Cor 15, Romans 8:11, Phil 3:21.

And when we compare the above with Paul in these passages below we see that the body(soma) in the context is a real material body which is physical in the Resurrection but controlled completely by the Spirit in the afterlife.

Natural(psychikos) body
Spiritual(pneumatikos) body


1 Cor 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Below we see how Paul uses and contrasts the words natural (psychikos) and spiritual (pneumatikos) below;


1 Cor 2:14-16
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.

Paul is clearly contrasting the unsaved with the saved with the natural man and spiritual man. One is controlled by the natural or the flesh while the other is controlled by the spirit/spiritual- Holy Spirit. Just like in 1 Cor 15:44 where Paul is contrasting the natural body that is controlled by the flesh with the spiritual body that is controlled by the Spirit. Both are real physical bodies but the difference is one is controlled by the flesh which is carnal and the other is controlled by the Spirit and is spiritual. One has the appetites and desires of the flesh while the other has appetites and desires controlled by the Spirit. Hence a spiritual body is one that is controlled by the Spirit of God in the Resurrection.

Paul’s usage below of spiritual(pneumatikos) in 1 Cor 10 where he calls the rock, food and drink spiritual it does not mean an immaterial rock, food and drink but a real Rock, Manna and Water which were with the Israelites in the wilderness wanderings.

1 Cor 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from aspiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Now Paul drives home the point of our new literal physical bodies below in heaven from the text in 2nd Cor 5 below;

2 Cor 5:1-5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

You see there is no bodiless spirit men in heaven unclothed(no body) but indeed with a heavenly body(like Jesus) has now in heaven which is flesh and bones like He said His Resurrected body was to His Disciples.

hope this helps,

Christ could materialize his flesh and bone inside of a room and then dematerialize it and be gone. So no, His flesh and bone is not like our flesh and bone. It is different, being more spiritual and less coursely carnal than before His resurrection. The new creation will be supernatural, and this pretty much means that it will be more spiritual.

 

[truefiction1]

Well As Jesus physically rose from th edead with a glorified physical body, so shall we! I won't speculate as to the composition of that body. We just know it will have substance and can be seen!

We agree.

 

[Daniel9v9]

So you are claiming that everyone has had the opportunity to accept or reject Christ? I would say that countless billions have not.

Yes, I do. cf. Matthew 7:13. That has to do with the fall, original sin and our continued actual sins - by what we do and by what we leave undone - in thought, word, and deed. The burden shouldn't be on me to argue why everyone isn't saved, because Scriptures clearly teaches that no one is righteous before God - not even one. And that salvation is only found in Christ. The burden should be on you to explain, from Scriptures, why all should be saved - even those who reject God's grace.

You won't find this teaching in the Bible, because the Christian faith is very clear on this: that whoever believes will have life, and salvation is only found through Christ. cf. John 14:6, Acts 4:12. But whoever doesn't believe is already condemned. Nowhere in Scripture does it say, amount to, or allude to, that whoever disbelieves in Jesus will have life in Christ. No, John writes: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

I think many who argue for Apocatastasis do believe in a loving God, but they sadly often confuse God's righteousness for evil, which is a terrible mistake. It betrays a lack of understanding regarding the depth and severity of sin. Damnation is a severe punishment because sin is very severe - it's nothing less than rejection and rebellion towards God - an attempt to overthrow God in an effort to crown oneself "lord". Very simply: God is good and the source of all that is good. So, those who reject God reject what is good, which is evil, and God punishes evil, which is good.

In short, no one is more good, righteous and just than God, who both redeems and judges.

 

[Running2win]

Right. Damnationists claim that God predestined those he will incinerate for all eternity without cause or hope of escape.

That's not how I understand it. Everyone has a choice, but only the chosen will make that choice. And the Scriptures are clear to me either destination is eternal, and likely degrees of punishment or rewards i either destination... So this is simply what I believe the Bible teaches.

#1. God is God and can do what He wants with His creation (us), and does not need to explain Himself to us. He defines what is right and what is just- not us, so when we rebel against a particular doctrine that has been hammered out over centuries, and that the early Church Fathers held to, we are really in rebellion against God. There is nothing new under the Sun.

#2. We are all under the curse of sin- and death shows this, and sin willing since the fall. So we are all under the wrath of God and deserve judgement. God has displayed His attributes in His creation so everyone can see/figure out, there is a all powerful God and follow Him. If they choose to follow Him or seek Him, He will reveal Himself to them and they will be saved. So everyone is without excuse-according to the Scriptures.

#3. God sent Jesus to die in our place in order to save His chosen ones, His elect. We are covered by Jesus' blood and our sin is taken away, and we stand "in Christ", perfect in position in the Fathers eyes, and His wrath is satisfied. We don't know who the elect are- but God does, and all need to hear the gospel message, repent and trust in Jesus for salvation.

#4. Everyone has their name in Gods book starting out, but only the chosen ones will remain and their names will not be blotted out, but found in the Lambs book of life. All the rest will be judged by their works at the great white throne judgement. If you are not written in the Lambs book of life, you are thrown in the lake of fire.

30On the next day Moses said to the people, “You yourselves have committed a great sin; and now I am going up to the LORD, perhaps I can make atonement for your sin.” 31Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, “Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. 32“But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!” 33The LORD said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book. 34“But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless in the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin.” 35Then the LORD smote the people, because of what they did with the calf which Aaron had made.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

11Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Saint Steven]

In short, no one is more good, righteous and just than God, who both redeems and judges.

When judging, what are the options for a verdict? Is not the great and rich mercy of God unfailing? Jesus taught us that it is godly behavior to love our enemies. What should then expect from God in this regard? Something less than the perfection he expects from us. We should love our enemies while he plans to incinerate his? What's wrong with this picture?

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

#1. God is God and can do what He wants with His creation (us), and does not need to explain Himself to us.

So, God is a cosmic tyrant? He can torture us for all eternity and there is nothing we can do to stop him? The seems slanderous to me.

If you lived in a totalitarian country and your family had been forcibly taken from you and was being tortured mercilessly in a dark dungeon, would you love and respect a leader like that. Would you go weekly to a temple and sing his praises? Would you daily read a book extolling his wonders? Would you pray to him for your daily needs? Would you love a ruler like that?

 

[Saint Steven]

#2. We are all under the curse of sin- and death shows this, and sin willing since the fall. So we are all under the wrath of God and deserve judgement. God has displayed His attributes in His creation so everyone can see/figure out, there is a all powerful God and follow Him. If they choose to follow Him or seek Him, He will reveal Himself to them and they will be saved. So everyone is without excuse-according to the Scriptures.

Where is "the plan of salvation" in creation?