Needed: A coalition of feminists and conservative Christians

[archer75]

I feel out of place on this thread (not because anyome was mean to me, but because people on the thread can post better versions of my thoughts than I can, and are better-informed), though I'm still following with interest. But in response to the last post from @bekkilyn — this is so embarrassing. That this is now "the left." That, as @Silmarien said somewhere, people with at least some liberal ideas have to get creative about what to call themselves. Because in US discourse, left and right now just mean "one proto-totalitarian cult or the other, take your pick."

Although it feels like it's gotten worse on the left. If I ignore the Internet and think only of real people...seems I've met way more people who sound kind of out there on the right, but who are still willing to think that I'm a person. On the left these days...just awful. Awful.

("Liberal distributist" is pretty good, Silmarien...)

 

[Silmarien]

I feel out of place on this thread (not because anyome was mean to me, but because people on the thread can post better versions of my thoughts than I can, and are better-informed), though I'm still following with interest. But in response to the last post from @bekkilyn — this is so embarrassing. That this is now "the left." That, as @Silmarien said somewhere, people with at least some liberal ideas have to get creative about what to call themselves. Because in US discourse, left and right now just mean "one proto-totalitarian cult or the other, take your pick."

Although it feels like it's gotten worse on the left. If I ignore the Internet and think only of real people...seems I've met way more people who sound kind of out there on the right, but who are still willing to think that I'm a person. On the left these days...just awful. Awful.

Yeah... I'm not sure what (if anything) to say to my far left friends, who seem to be all in on the J.K. Rowling witch-hunt, whereas... I don't know. I think she has been a bit reactionary, but I'm not at all sure if it's because she's transphobic or because she's been sick of the Orwellian Newspeak for a very long time and is acting out. This issue is so difficult in part because transgender activism is completely out of control, irresponsible, self-centered in the extreme, totalitarian, and really just seems to be on a non-stop power high.

Another major problem, I think, is language itself. People are using the same words to have completely different conversations, leading to catastrophe. I'll say, for example, "someone who isn't on hormone therapy can't 'feel' like a woman in any meaningful way," literally meaning that without hormones, it's impossible to have the bodily sensations associated with a particular gender. This is in fact implied by what transsexuals post-transition say, but it's taken as a denial of the sincere belief on the part the person who hasn't transitioned that their sex is wrong. But I actually take offense at the idea that a biological male can "feel" like a woman without transitioning, since to me it looks like a really presumptuous and impossible knowledge claim concerning what it actually feels like to be female. So I might get a bit provocative in saying that they can't, and this is viewed as unkind.

Now that I think of it, I wonder if this isn't the underlying problem in general. One side is thinking exclusively in terms of pastoral concerns and making sure that someone doesn't feel judged and rejected, whereas the other side may be thinking in more theoretical terms and trying to keep terminology meaningful and grounded in actual reality. Subjectivity vs. objectivity. So for someone in the former camp, rejecting the phrase "a transwoman is a woman" means that you think they're lying about their identity. But I primarily reject it because I think the phrase is both meaningless and manipulative. It seems that many progressives can increasingly think only in more emotive terms, so they will immediately jump to thinking that those who reject their catchphrases will go around intentionally misgendering people and telling them that they're lying. And unfortunately, many people will do this (or much worse), so the well could not be more poisoned.

("Liberal distributist" is pretty good, Silmarien...)

Haha, I've had trouble with labels for a while, since I've got a liberalized version of Catholic social teachings going on. I was going with economic leftist/social moderate, which I suppose is still accurate, but I don't really want to identify as a leftist anymore.

 

[archer75]

But I actually take offense at the idea that a biological male can "feel" like a woman without transitioning, since to me it looks like a really presumptuous and impossible knowledge claim concerning what it actually feels like to be female. So I might get a bit provocative in saying that they can't, and this is viewed as unkind.

Maybe this gets a little off-topic, but during such talks, I have gotten hung up even earlier: how does even a woman know what it feels like to be "a woman?" Anyone has only ever been one specific woman, so...maybe you really don't? How does anyone know what it feels like to be a man or a woman? You're just you. What...what are we even talking about? How could even a person taking hormones then KNOW that "this is what women feel!!"? Maybe this is just how YOU feel while taking these hormones?

I recognize that in a lot of contexts this very questions would get me thrown on the Rowling bonfire, but I figure it's okay to admit to it here...

 

[Paidiske]

Maybe this gets a little off-topic, but during such talks, I have gotten hung up even earlier: how does even a woman know what it feels like to be "a woman?" Anyone has only ever been one specific woman, so...maybe you really don't? How does anyone know what it feels like to be a man or a woman? You're just you. What...what are we even talking about? How could even a person taking hormones then KNOW that "this is what women feel!!"? Maybe this is just how YOU feel while taking these hormones?

My conversations with other women lead me to believe that many of us experience this very differently. To me, while I inhabit a female body, I don't really find my sex important to my sense of identity (ie. if my consciousness were somehow able to be transplanted into a man's body, while no doubt some of that would be strange and disorienting, I don't think I would feel alienated from my sense of self; I'd be the same self in different circumstances); to some other women, their womanliness is really central to who they are. And I guess that speaks to some people's experience (which I understand to be genuine) of gender dysphoria.

That said, I think there are things about pregnancy, giving birth, breastfeeding, all the stuff that goes with female biology, that while women might experience them very differently, we at least have some common reference points, in a way that I really don't believe a man can, subjectively.

I remember, when I was in seminary and pregnant, talking with some classmates one day, and explaining to them that I had never felt more vulnerable than when pregnant; and how surprising that was to some of the men in the group who had only ever thought of pregnancy as potentially an empowering or wonderful experience.

 

[bekkilyn]

Yeah... I'm not sure what (if anything) to say to my far left friends, who seem to be all in on the J.K. Rowling witch-hunt, whereas... I don't know. I think she has been a bit reactionary, but I'm not at all sure if it's because she's transphobic or because she's been sick of the Orwellian Newspeak for a very long time and is acting out. This issue is so difficult in part because transgender activism is completely out of control, irresponsible, self-centered in the extreme, totalitarian, and really just seems to be on a non-stop power high.

Another major problem, I think, is language itself. People are using the same words to have completely different conversations, leading to catastrophe. I'll say, for example, "someone who isn't on hormone therapy can't 'feel' like a woman in any meaningful way," literally meaning that without hormones, it's impossible to have the bodily sensations associated with a particular gender. This is in fact implied by what transsexuals post-transition say, but it's taken as a denial of the sincere belief on the part the person who hasn't transitioned that their sex is wrong. But I actually take offense at the idea that a biological male can "feel" like a woman without transitioning, since to me it looks like a really presumptuous and impossible knowledge claim concerning what it actually feels like to be female. So I might get a bit provocative in saying that they can't, and this is viewed as unkind.

Now that I think of it, I wonder if this isn't the underlying problem in general. One side is thinking exclusively in terms of pastoral concerns and making sure that someone doesn't feel judged and rejected, whereas the other side may be thinking in more theoretical terms and trying to keep terminology meaningful and grounded in actual reality. Subjectivity vs. objectivity. So for someone in the former camp, rejecting the phrase "a transwoman is a woman" means that you think they're lying about their identity. But I primarily reject it because I think the phrase is both meaningless and manipulative. It seems that many progressives can increasingly think only in more emotive terms, so they will immediately jump to thinking that those who reject their catchphrases will go around intentionally misgendering people and telling them that they're lying. And unfortunately, many people will do this (or much worse), so the well could not be more poisoned.

Haha, I've had trouble with labels for a while, since I've got a liberalized version of Catholic social teachings going on. I was going with economic leftist/social moderate, which I suppose is still accurate, but I don't really want to identify as a leftist anymore.

I definitely see the liberal arguments as being based nearly entirely on emotion and subjectivity because there is no way that we can look at the argument objectively and deny that there are two sexes with the possible exception of the relatively *miniscule* number of intersex (who are technically still male or female based on genes).

The whole gender thing seems based on pseudoscience that again goes back to feeling. I "feel" like a woman. I "feel" like a goldfish. What's the difference if one doesn't have the actual experience of being either a woman or a goldfish? What is "feeling like a woman?" Personally, I don't know that I've ever felt like a woman in anything that wasn't female-only, such as menstrual cramps, and even that's debatable because not every woman has menstrual cramps. So again, it comes down to feeling and subjectivity.

Are the progressives working towards the goal to label us ALL as trans people? After all, people use the offensive term "cisgender" to describe me because I am biologically female and therefore not a trans woman, but do I really present as a woman? I don't like cooking, baking, or vacuuming in high heels, so what gender am I? If I'm not "cis" then I must be trans, right?

See how it goes when everything is subjective and based on feeling? It starts to get ridiculous.

The big reason I was on the other side of this argument until the attack on JK Rowling opened my eyes to it is because I really don't care what people do or look like as long as they aren't harming anyone else (and I didn't see the harm at that time until I realized that it wasn't just post-op males coming into women's safe spaces but anyone just "feeling" like whatever they wanted to, even if they were fully male-bodied, looked like Arnold, and had beards like ZZ Top.) And then I have it in my mind that it is a good thing to be inclusive, and then women especially are socialized to always be nice and accomodating.

I'm personally not really a feeling type of person (INTJ here) and can't even begin to pretend that what I basically see as a bunch of BS (the "gender" stuff) is in any way legitimate, and is a social construct that has typically been used to enforce harmful gender roles that are very damaging to both women and men.

 

[Radagast]

That said, I think there are things about pregnancy, giving birth, breastfeeding, all the stuff that goes with female biology, that while women might experience them very differently, we at least have some common reference points, in a way that I really don't believe a man can, subjectively.

Speaking as a man, I know that I cannot even begin to imagine what those experiences feel like.

But be careful. Germaine Greer said something similar about the experience of having periods, and she was almost lynched.

Indeed, it seems to have become politically incorrect to say that there is such a thing as "female biology."

 

[Paidiske]

Indeed, it seems to have become politically incorrect to say that there is such a thing as "female biology."

Genetics is a thing. I really don't have much time for blatant denial of reality.

 

[bekkilyn]

Maybe this gets a little off-topic, but during such talks, I have gotten hung up even earlier: how does even a woman know what it feels like to be "a woman?" Anyone has only ever been one specific woman, so...maybe you really don't? How does anyone know what it feels like to be a man or a woman? You're just you. What...what are we even talking about? How could even a person taking hormones then KNOW that "this is what women feel!!"? Maybe this is just how YOU feel while taking these hormones?

I recognize that in a lot of contexts this very questions would get me thrown on the Rowling bonfire, but I figure it's okay to admit to it here...

Exactly. This is what I've been arguing with complementarians here on CF. They say "women can't do this" and "women can't do that" and yet none of them have been able to come up with what a woman is outside of basic female biology (uterus, vulva, etc.), and when they start talking about all the false gender roles, like "women are more emotional and so they don't have the capacity to lead" they get proven practically right away that it's crap.

 

[bekkilyn]

Speaking as a man, I know that I cannot even begin to imagine what those experiences feel like.

But be careful. Germaine Greer said something similar about the experience of having periods, and she was almost lynched.

Indeed, it seems to have become politically incorrect to say that there is such a thing as "female biology."

It's the science denial of the left. That's why the accusation that they are "erasing women" because if you deny there is a such thing as biology, then you can pretty much just make up whatever you want (such as the 97,000 different genders) and therefore the only women are the ones that "feel" like women, i.e. trans women.

 

[Silmarien]

Maybe this gets a little off-topic, but during such talks, I have gotten hung up even earlier: how does even a woman know what it feels like to be "a woman?" Anyone has only ever been one specific woman, so...maybe you really don't? How does anyone know what it feels like to be a man or a woman? You're just you. What...what are we even talking about? How could even a person taking hormones then KNOW that "this is what women feel!!"? Maybe this is just how YOU feel while taking these hormones?

I recognize that in a lot of contexts this very questions would get me thrown on the Rowling bonfire, but I figure it's okay to admit to it here...

Haha, you can join the rest of us on the bonfire!

But yeah, this is one of my big problems with the whole thing. If we define gender dysphoria as feeling like your sex is incorrect, that in itself doesn't mean that you know what it feels like to be the opposite sex. You just have a mental conception that you associate with it and feel more comfortable with such a persona.

As far as hormones go, what I was reading was someone describing how their sexuality had changed after they were on female hormones. Becoming less visually oriented and more... abstract and idea-based in what they found arousing. I looked at that and said, "Aha! That is definitely female rather than male sexuality," and decided that it was in fact possible to feel like a woman. Granted, there is almost certainly variation there also, but I've noticed certain patterns (visual porn vs. erotic fiction, for instance).

Beyond that, though, yeah. I don't really understand it either. You feel like yourself, and if you don't feel like yourself until transitioning to the opposite gender, then once you do, you feel like yourself. I don't know how "woman" or "man" could be a feeling except in the realm of something like sexuality.

 

[Silmarien]

Speaking as a man, I know that I cannot even begin to imagine what those experiences feel like.

But be careful. Germaine Greer said something similar about the experience of having periods, and she was almost lynched.

Indeed, it seems to have become politically incorrect to say that there is such a thing as "female biology."

Well, one problem is that these sorts of things are not necessarily experiences shared by all women. I've never been pregnant, so I can't really imagine what those experiences would be like.

On the other hand, it is a real possibility to me, in the way that it isn't to you, so I still have some sort of common reference point. Would I if I were infertile (and knew it)? I don't know. Possibly.

Are the progressives working towards the goal to label us ALL as trans people? After all, people use the offensive term "cisgender" to describe me because I am biologically female and therefore not a trans woman, but do I really present as a woman? I don't like cooking, baking, or vacuuming in high heels, so what gender am I? If I'm not "cis" then I must be trans, right?

Yes and no. I don't think this is the goal of the progressives, because I don't really think they even know what their goal is. This stuff comes out of queer theory, though, and I suspect they actually would be happy with a world where people didn't see sex at all, and then constructed a billion different genders where everyone ended up being just queer in their own way.

I feel like reality, which includes stuff like gender dysphoria (something that doesn't make sense if everything is just gender expression), is going to be a bit of a hurdle for this weird sort of utopia, though.

 

[Paidiske]

On the other hand, it is a real possibility to me, in the way that it isn't to you, so I still have some sort of common reference point. Would I if I were infertile (and knew it)? I don't know. Possibly.

I have a friend who is an infertile woman, and who doesn't experience any of the monthly cycles etc. Once I heard someone ask her if she felt less of a woman because of it, and she said, "No! It feels like being on holiday every month!"

But others would experience the same thing as a real grief... it's all very complicated!

 

[Radagast]

I feel like reality, which includes stuff like gender dysphoria

Well, people do sometimes have beliefs about their body which are objectively false. Anorexics will sometimes firmly believe that they are "too fat," even though what everybody else sees is an almost skeletal figure.

 

[Radagast]

I have a friend who is an infertile woman, and who doesn't experience any of the monthly cycles etc. Once I heard someone ask her if she felt less of a woman because of it, and she said, "No! It feels like being on holiday every month!"

You said something about "points of reference." Even though any one "point of reference" may not be shared by all women, that doesn't stop it being a "point of reference."

 

[Paidiske]

Well, people do sometimes have beliefs about their body which are objectively false. Anorexics will sometimes firmly believe that they are "too fat," even though what everybody else sees is an almost skeletal figure.

But saying that reality includes gender dysphoria, would be akin to saying that reality includes anorexia. Both of these phenomena exist.

How we then go about dealing with each is a completely separate question from acknowledging their existence.

 

[Radagast]

But saying that reality includes gender dysphoria, would be akin to saying that reality includes anorexia. Both of these phenomena exist.

Agreed.

How we then go about dealing with each is a completely separate question from acknowledging their existence.

Agreed. My point exactly.

 

[Silmarien]

I have a friend who is an infertile woman, and who doesn't experience any of the monthly cycles etc. Once I heard someone ask her if she felt less of a woman because of it, and she said, "No! It feels like being on holiday every month!"

But others would experience the same thing as a real grief... it's all very complicated!

My question is more... does she think about the possibility of pregnancy even in a theoretical sense? I don't know if there would be any sort of "relational" understanding of what it might mean to be pregnant if someone were infertile.

Before I converted, I was totally terrified of the idea of ever being pregnant. Afterwards, when I was interested in Orthodoxy and started exploring the pro-life position, I was finally able to accept that if it should ever happen, I would really have to see it through, and the underlying terror I'd always felt finally dissipated. A little backwards than how women normally feel about it, but... yeah. When I think about it, the idea of pregnancy has always been kind of there, in the back of my head, even if I have no firsthand experience.

Well, people do sometimes have beliefs about their body which are objectively false. Anorexics will sometimes firmly believe that they are "too fat," even though what everybody else sees is an almost skeletal figure.

Yeah, I meant that gender dysphoria is definitely a real medical condition. And if it doesn't go away, it seems that they can't really manage it that well by just telling people to address with different pronouns while leaving their appearance the same. If they don't feel better without genuinely transitioning, they're not just "performing" the gender they would rather be, as some of the queer theorists would have it.

 

[Paidiske]

Before I converted, I was totally terrified of the idea of ever being pregnant. Afterwards, when I was interested in Orthodoxy and started exploring the pro-life position, I was finally able to accept that if it should ever happen, I would really have to see it through, and the underlying terror I'd always felt finally dissipated. A little backwards than how women normally feel about it, but... yeah. When I think about it, the idea of pregnancy has always been kind of there, in the back of my head, even if I have no firsthand experience.

I've been pregnant and I'm still terrified of it. I think that women not being keen on pregnancy (or motherhood, which is such a cultural idol) is probably much more common than is talked about.

But yes, I know what you mean. We live - from puberty to menopause - always aware of that potential and its consequences.

 

[Swag365]

But my questions are, is it possible? And if possible, is it something people actually want to work together on?

I think that a definition of "conservative Christian" may be helpful. At least from what I see here, large groups of Christians here in the USA have mindsets that are largely consistent with the (original) goals of feminism. When I read the question it seemed a bit odd to me, I thought like "Aren't most of them already feminist?"

 

[Paidiske]

I think that a definition of "conservative Christian" may be helpful. At least from what I see here, large groups of Christians here in the USA have mindsets that are largely consistent with the (original) goals of feminism. When I read the question it seemed a bit odd to me, I thought like "Aren't most of them already feminist?"

In my experience, conservative Christians don't agree with the full equality of women and men. They wish to see women excluded from particular roles in the church, (and often in society), and see the family as a hierarchy in which women are to be subordinate. (Obviously there is a spectrum and those views might be held to a greater or lesser extreme).

And at least, on this forum, disagreeing with those positions is enough that those Americans with whom I interact tend to instantly label me as "liberal."