Needed: A coalition of feminists and conservative Christians

Paidiske

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Dave-W

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Not sure it is possible. Amos tells us:

Amos 3:3 NKJV
Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?​

And there are certainly wide areas of disagreement between the 2 camps.

That said, I think the idea is not a bad one, Evangelicalism needs a more feminine perspective. And the Lord knows Feminism needs a good dose of traditional morality. But I don't think the 2 sides would listen to each other enough to pull it off.

Perhaps we need to pray for a 3rd Great Awakening.
 
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public hermit

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As Dave-W points out, there would have to be some point of agreement. I am tempted to say, at the very least, both sides could agree that the mistreatment of women is unacceptable. But, of course, feminist will probably insist that the conservative idea of complementarianism is mistreatment. That aside, they should agree that women should be treated with dignity-not as an object of male pleasure or unwanted advances.

Maybe the point of agreement could be equality. In Christ there is no male or female-all are of equal dignity, equal candidates in need of grace, equally loved by God, etc. I don't know, but I just think some common ground is possible. But, there must be the desire to try and establish common ground, and that may be lacking, unfortunately.
 
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~Zao~

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Now that the role of females has become untangled from the habits of same-sex unions I think that the issues can be discussed with more honest intention with females and males being more co-operative with each other.

The wall has produced a window that can be seen more clearly w/o the use or misuse of sex being an issue. One that should be kept as a private issue.

A wall that has been used too long to cloud the important issues of Christianity and all our roles in it.

Blame no longer is an issue. It’s been the use of strange bedfellows that have hampered discussions that should never have been burdened with the implications to begin with.
 
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bekkilyn

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I don't see how such a partnership would be possible (or desired) when one of the very foundations of conservative Christianity is that women are NOT equal to men. I have yet to see conservative Christians in pursuit of any sort of goal to combat misogynistic men. Quite the opposite, in fact. And when sex abuse cases are brought up, the only real horror I've seen among conservatives as a whole isn't for the victims of abuse, but for those who are apparently being falsely accused. Wanting to push uncomfortable publicity back under a rug isn't anywhere near the same thing as wanting to honestly acknowledge and deal with the misogyny that is solidly ingrained in their very doctrines and institutions.
 
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PloverWing

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Any coalition like this would have to be completely honest about our significant disagreements. I think complementarianism is immoral, both because of its imbalance of power and because of its imposition of gender roles, and I would not want to join an organization that implied that I felt otherwise. Probably, a person like Grudem feels similarly about egalitarianism. It would have to be clear that the coalition is only for the purpose of preventing sexual violence against women, and that neither of us is compromising our beliefs about gender roles.

But. If the complementarians agree that sexual violence against women is bad, or if at least some of them do, then I think we could have a productive conversation about this one particular issue.

There was a poster campaign some years ago titled "My Strength is Not For Hurting". Each poster showed a romantic couple and had a caption like "My strength is not for hurting. So when I wanted to and she didn't, we didn't. Men can stop rape." I think something like that is an idea that complementarians and egalitarians could find agreement on. There are situations in which a man holds more power than a woman -- because he's the boss, or the doctor, something like that. This is true even if we agree to disagree on the questions of power in marriage and in the church. We should be able to agree that people in power should not abuse that power. Perhaps (if we're all Christians) we can even agree that power should be wielded only to help and nurture the people "under" us, never to harm them. That could be a starting point.
 
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~Zao~

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Perhaps (if we're all Christians) we can even agree that power should be wielded only to help and nurture the people "under" us, never to harm them. That could be a starting point.
the bleakness of it all :sad: not pertaining to Christ.
 
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Albion

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Hmm. I have had more than a little involvement with conservative political causes and organizations and belong to a conservative church. Without exception all the people I have met in them are completely supportive of women, their rights, importance, capabilities, etc.

But when the word that's used is feminism, it can mean all sorts of things. Unfortunately, what the likes of the Religious News Service and the Daily Beast (!) (cited in the article) mean essentially closes the door to cooperative efforts.
 
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archer75

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@PloverWing has the right idea here, it seems to me.

At first I was going to say "In the US, this will never happen.". But who knows? The various factions are getting pretty wacky and the followers know it. There is more room for less ideological arguments than you might think.
 
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Paidiske

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Any coalition like this would have to be completely honest about our significant disagreements. I think complementarianism is immoral, both because of its imbalance of power and because of its imposition of gender roles, and I would not want to join an organization that implied that I felt otherwise. Probably, a person like Grudem feels similarly about egalitarianism. It would have to be clear that the coalition is only for the purpose of preventing sexual violence against women, and that neither of us is compromising our beliefs about gender roles.

But. If the complementarians agree that sexual violence against women is bad, or if at least some of them do, then I think we could have a productive conversation about this one particular issue.

There was a poster campaign some years ago titled "My Strength is Not For Hurting". Each poster showed a romantic couple and had a caption like "My strength is not for hurting. So when I wanted to and she didn't, we didn't. Men can stop rape." I think something like that is an idea that complementarians and egalitarians could find agreement on. There are situations in which a man holds more power than a woman -- because he's the boss, or the doctor, something like that. This is true even if we agree to disagree on the questions of power in marriage and in the church. We should be able to agree that people in power should not abuse that power. Perhaps (if we're all Christians) we can even agree that power should be wielded only to help and nurture the people "under" us, never to harm them. That could be a starting point.

I think this is probably about right.

What concerns me is that, while more feminist groups are used to talking about power, being transparent about power and so on, my observation (and feel free to tell me if you disagree) is that in general, conservative groups have a massive blind spot about power. It's as if they don't want to acknowledge that it's there, or what it does to relationships (perhaps because that would suggest the power balance needs to shift). So I'm not sure that's a conversation they'd want to have?
 
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PloverWing

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What concerns me is that, while more feminist groups are used to talking about power, being transparent about power and so on, my observation (and feel free to tell me if you disagree) is that in general, conservative groups have a massive blind spot about power. It's as if they don't want to acknowledge that it's there, or what it does to relationships (perhaps because that would suggest the power balance needs to shift). So I'm not sure that's a conversation they'd want to have?

I don't actually know whether conservative groups are talking about the uses and abuses of power. Maybe some of our conservative readers, posting in fellowship, can provide some information here about the conversations that happen within their churches.

If complementarians aren't talking about power, they should. Any time we presume to wield power over another human being, we should be aware of what power we have, why we are using it, what its limits are, and when we will end that particular power relationship. Insofar as complementarians want men to wield power benevolently over women, they should be mindful of their power at all times. A coalition of feminists and complementarians won't even get started if we're not talking frankly about power.
 
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PloverWing

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Hmm. I have had more than a little involvement with conservative political causes and organizations and belong to a conservative church. Without exception all the people I have met in them are completely supportive of women, their rights, importance, capabilities, etc.

That gives some important common ground, then.

But when the word that's used is feminism, it can mean all sorts of things.

I would be willing to set aside the word feminism during negotiations, if that's a troublesome term. Egalitarian will do just as well. Any word that makes it clear that I disagree with gender roles will suffice as a description of my views.
 
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WolfGate

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I think you first need to define the very broad term "feminism" because it has so many meanings as to be undefinable on its own. You also need to determine if you mean theologically evangelical (conservative) or politically evangelical (conservative) and even that is broad as well and needs better understanding. Depending on how those are defined, the answer may be "yes" but there would need to be, as already said, some clear understanding of differences and willingness to work on areas where there is unity and essentially have a détente in areas where there is not.
 
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Endeavourer

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I don't see how such a partnership would be possible (or desired) when one of the very foundations of conservative Christianity is that women are NOT equal to men. I have yet to see conservative Christians in pursuit of any sort of goal to combat misogynistic men. Quite the opposite, in fact. And when sex abuse cases are brought up, the only real horror I've seen among conservatives as a whole isn't for the victims of abuse, but for those who are apparently being falsely accused. Wanting to push uncomfortable publicity back under a rug isn't anywhere near the same thing as wanting to honestly acknowledge and deal with the misogyny that is solidly ingrained in their very doctrines and institutions.

As a conservative Christian, I must say this criticism is hardly fair. I appreciate most of your posts, Bekkilyn, but this broad brush assumption is hurtful. We are attacked on so many planes for daring to question headship orthodoxy - let's not attack each other.

I've dedicated much of my time to ministering to victims of abuse and being their strength when they have none left. As well, the leaders in the church I left about a year ago are working diligently to find and minister to victims of abuse (particularly children who are molested) within their own denomination while taking action against abusers. I had to part ways with that church over their headship theories, but the pastor and his wife were engaged with any time they had to spare after ministering to the local congregation who is paying his wages to ministering all throughout the denomination on this issue. His wife would even fly around the country to meet with the victims to encourage them or face together difficult actions that needed to be taken. Most of the victims were girls or women, hence his wife being the one to be with them.

The pastor of the conservative church I serve in now goes "200%" all day, every day to minister to people who need care - most of whom are victims of abuse. I won't give you the stories of about all of the women we've come beside to help, whether individually or as a church body, but we've touched a lot of people with care an provisions even though our small church has barely any financial resources.

It's just wrong to stereotype conservative Christians in this way. We have hearts full of care and compassion towards the hurting people.

In many organizations the psychopaths rise to the top. I would submit that someone who is trampling on a victim in pursuit of protecting their power in any organization is likely that psychopath that was able to rise to the top. Shame on all of them. Or, rather a pox and shame on all of them!
 
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bekkilyn

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As a conservative Christian, I must say this criticism is hardly fair. I appreciate most of your posts, Bekkilyn, but this broad brush assumption is hurtful. We are attacked on so many planes for daring to question headship orthodoxy - let's not attack each other.

I've dedicated much of my time to ministering to victims of abuse and being their strength when they have none left. As well, the leaders in the church I left about a year ago are working diligently to find and minister to victims of abuse (particularly children who are molested) within their own denomination while taking action against abusers. I had to part ways with that church over their headship theories, but the pastor and his wife were engaged with any time they had to spare after ministering to the local congregation who is paying his wages to ministering all throughout the denomination on this issue. His wife would even fly around the country to meet with the victims to encourage them or face together difficult actions that needed to be taken. Most of the victims were girls or women, hence his wife being the one to be with them.

The pastor of the conservative church I serve in now goes "200%" all day, every day to minister to people who need care - most of whom are victims of abuse. I won't give you the stories of about all of the women we've come beside to help, whether individually or as a church body, but we've touched a lot of people with care an provisions even though our small church has barely any financial resources.

It's just wrong to stereotype conservative Christians in this way. We have hearts full of care and compassion towards the hurting people.

In many organizations the psychopaths rise to the top. I would submit that someone who is trampling on a victim in pursuit of protecting their power in any organization is likely that psychopath that was able to rise to the top. Shame on all of them. Or, rather a pox and shame on all of them!

Have conservative Christians been speaking out against misogyny in Christianity and against rape, and in support of the victims rather than their rapists on a WIDESCALE basis? Much of what I see (as well as many unbelievers who are horrified with Christianity due to conservative Christians) is more like what I read in this article:

How Christian conservatives blame victims and let rapists walk free

I'm not trying to be unfair, but this sort of thing has been my own experience with Christian conservatism for practically all of my life, and it's hard to blame unbelievers who want to have nothing to do with Christianity because of this sort of thing.
 
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J03y

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If the thought that God is not man is not recognized that essentially closes the door to cooperative efforts.
I agree, especially considering in Jewish literature there is the idea of Shekhina, that God's glory is His feminine aspect.
 
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Endeavourer

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Have conservative Christians been speaking out against ....... rape, and in support of the victims rather than their rapists on a WIDESCALE basis?

Wow, Bekkilyn, I don't know of any conservative Christian who espouses support for rapists rather than victims.

As for misogyny, the term means one thing to one person and another to another, so I can't guess what you are including in that.

Much of what I see (as well as many unbelievers who are horrified with Christianity due to conservative Christians) is more like what I read in this article:

How Christian conservatives blame victims and let rapists walk free

I'm not trying to be unfair, but this sort of thing has been my own experience with Christian conservatism for practically all of my life, and it's hard to blame unbelievers who want to have nothing to do with Christianity because of this sort of thing.

The psychopath responsible for "breaking down" the victim at one these schools has been spectacularly removed from his post in disgrace, recently. He would meet with the victim to break her down until she accepted some blame and then expect mutual apologies, etc etc. Well, he was such a worshiper of himself that he installed stained glass windows with his likeness, that of his wife, and the men in his old boys club. He had a multi million dollar mansion built on the campus so he could be the Resident Theologian for the rest of his days, living in luxury, after he retired. Once his scheming, scamming psychopathic ways became known, he lost his position as president of the university, he lost his fancy home and emeritus set up and they are taking all of his stained glass windows out. It took a while for this despicable behavior to become known past his fellow old boys circle, but justice was eventually meted out to him.

However, his behavior, nor his fellow evil doers, have nothing to do with me and the other real conservative Christians that are sincerely seeking to worship the Lord in Spirit and in truth.

Every organization has its psychopaths. I would imagine yours does too. Many people who rise up as "leaders" in organizations are either psychopaths or have tendencies towards that behavior or else they wouldn't be able to rise up.

I would urge you not to paint people who are on your side with such an ugly brush. I am a conservative Christian, and like every other conservative Christian I know, I'm against rape, I support rape victims and I want rapists brought to justice. I've been a conservative Christian my entire life and know hundreds, if not thousands of them, and on a WIDESCALE basis, not a single person I've encountered in my circles want rapists protected and rape victims left unsupported. Don't get yourself tied into a stereotype that is simply not true.

I follow cryingoutforjustice.blog, which is a movement holding those leaders in the conservative movement accountable for any behaviors in that direction. There are many, MANY conservative Christian men who join in with their voices. It is a good thing to have accountability and voices crying out for justice in every organization. I hope there is accountability in your organization as well.
 
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Paidiske

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Wow, Bekkilyn, I don't know of any conservative Christian who espouses support for rapists rather than victims.

Have you seen any of the threads discussing Cardinal Pell?

What bekki is describing, does, sadly, happen in some circles. I wouldn't say all, but too many.

I have a hard time differentiating between the term misogenist and what is termed feminist.

Misogynists are content to see women subjugated, and feminists are focussed on human flourishing, especially (in our current patriarchal society) that of women.
 
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