Needed: A coalition of feminists and conservative Christians

[WolfGate]

I'm not sure that exactly summarizes my thought. I'm more inclined to say that yes, social conservatives are values driven. I don't think the political conservatives main driver is to preserve power and privilege. I think at the root a political party feels that their party has a better plan for helping the country. Politics has the added dimension that in order to implement your plan you have to maintain power - and that need to maintain power will result in a "means justifies the end" approach to many issues. The result of that can be what you mentioned with political conservatives therefore working to preserve power and privilege. It's also why you see members of political parties across the spectrum willing to misrepresent others positions, misdirect answers to difficult questions, and totally misuse or dismiss data and science if doing so helps them maintain power.

Still, your last sentence is correct IMO as well - in many of the most high profile issues the concerns of these groups align very neatly.

 

[Dave-W]

Politics has the added dimension that in order to implement your plan you have to maintain power -

That is the first rule of being in power - remain in power no matter what.

 

[bekkilyn]

I've been rethinking this topic since the latest abuse of JK Rowling because of her statements that biological sex is real and what happened yesterday over on Reddit where over 2000 conservative and feminist subs were both banned as "hate" groups, while at the same time not touching the multitude of violent inappropriate contentographic and misogynistic and incel subs that have become all the more dominant over there.

There is not one single group left over there (that hasn't gone private) where biological women can discuss issues pertaining to biological women. If we don't agree that there are 97,000 different genders that we can just put on each morning like a set of clothing, then we are considered "transphobic". Conservatives and (radical) feminists may be the only two groups left who share some consensus on the fact that there are indeed two biological sexes.

Even the LGB community is being persecuted for being "transphobic" because they are attracted to the same SEX and not the same "gender" (whatever the heck a gender is).

There are very valid cases of gender dysphoria and these people need to be helped and to have their safe spaces where they are not oppressed and murdered, but now it's gotten to the point where any dude in a dress can just "identify into" being a women and take over all of women's spaces, and if women don't like it, then we are labeled as "transphobic". The TRA movement has largely become another men's movement of the ugliest variety and the latest attack on JK Rowling emphasizes that ugliness. I very highly doubt most of those people are actually transgender in the sense they have gender dysphoria, especially considering it is less than 1 percent of the population.

I had no idea any of this stuff was going on. I'm the type of person who believes that everyone should have basic human rights and civil rights regardless of whatever demographic the belong to. But now I'm really beginning to understand why the far-right keeps calling the left and liberals "authoritarian." I always thought it was just a projection since the far-right is so borderline, if not outright, fascist, but now I've just had a great demonstration over on Reddit of just that very thing.

Who knew that "women" was now considered a "majority group" (according to Reddit's definition...while "gender" cannot be discriminated against, biological sex is fair game) that can now be legitimately hated on without any limits, but if actual women get together to talk about women's issues, then it's considered "hate speech".

While I do still believe that there cannot be a true coalition between conservative Christians and feminists because of the seemingly irreconcilable beliefs on "women's roles," it seems that we do have some "common enemies" so to speak.

I will be thinking more on this topic so nothing I've said is completely set in stone, but the above is a current portrait of what's going on in my thoughts today.

 

[Paidiske]

It's interesting you should post that now, Bekki. Over recent days I've had thoughts running in a related direction (about common enemies); in a few days I'll be participating in a group discussion on feminism and the sex industry, and in the preparatory reading for that I've been feeling that there's a convergence there between conservatives and those feminists who still see the sex industry as a manifestation of patriarchy.

Meanwhile, the mainstream of feminist thought seems to have run on from there to thinking all problems will be solved if we decriminalise and destigmatise the industry, but I'm really not buying that...

 

[St. Helens]

I am going to take a leap and post here - I am socially conservative, but @bekkilyn I hear you. This world is turning into a mad house and I don't think the issue is liberal vs conservative anymore.

I do believe people need to treated with respect regardless of what path their life is on, and whether you agree with it or not. If you don't treat people with consideration, it ruins the witness of us as Christians.

I also don't subscribe the barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen role as being the only role for women. Female Navy vet here.

 

[bekkilyn]

It's interesting you should post that now, Bekki. Over recent days I've had thoughts running in a related direction (about common enemies); in a few days I'll be participating in a group discussion on feminism and the sex industry, and in the preparatory reading for that I've been feeling that there's a convergence there between conservatives and those feminists who still see the sex industry as a manifestation of patriarchy.

Meanwhile, the mainstream of feminist thought seems to have run on from there to thinking all problems will be solved if we decriminalise and destigmatise the industry, but I'm really not buying that...

I'm not buying it either. Also, a while ago I attended a presentation at my local CERT (Community Emergency Response Team) organization that concerned sex trafficking and the reality of it is very ugly and to me, destigmatising of the sex industry would seem to act as a more legitimate front for it, among other related reasons. I'm very interested in hearing what you find out.

 

[bekkilyn]

I am going to take a leap and post here - I am socially conservative, but @bekkilyn I hear you. This world is turning into a mad house and I don't think the issue is liberal vs conservative anymore.

I do believe people need to treated with respect regardless of what path their life is on, and whether you agree with it or not. If you don't treat people with consideration, it ruins the witness of us as Christians.

I also don't subscribe the barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen role as being the only role for women. Female Navy vet here.

I wish I could like AND agree your post.

 

[Silmarien]

I've been rethinking this topic since the latest abuse of JK Rowling because of her statements that biological sex is real and what happened yesterday over on Reddit where over 2000 conservative and feminist subs were both banned as "hate" groups, while at the same time not touching the multitude of violent inappropriate contentographic and misogynistic and incel subs that have become all the more dominant over there.

There is not one single group left over there (that hasn't gone private) where biological women can discuss issues pertaining to biological women. If we don't agree that there are 97,000 different genders that we can just put on each morning like a set of clothing, then we are considered "transphobic". Conservatives and (radical) feminists may be the only two groups left who share some consensus on the fact that there are indeed two biological sexes.

Even the LGB community is being persecuted for being "transphobic" because they are attracted to the same SEX and not the same "gender" (whatever the heck a gender is).

There are very valid cases of gender dysphoria and these people need to be helped and to have their safe spaces where they are not oppressed and murdered, but now it's gotten to the point where any dude in a dress can just "identify into" being a women and take over all of women's spaces, and if women don't like it, then we are labeled as "transphobic". The TRA movement has largely become another men's movement of the ugliest variety and the latest attack on JK Rowling emphasizes that ugliness. I very highly doubt most of those people are actually transgender in the sense they have gender dysphoria, especially considering it is less than 1 percent of the population.

I had no idea any of this stuff was going on. I'm the type of person who believes that everyone should have basic human rights and civil rights regardless of whatever demographic the belong to. But now I'm really beginning to understand why the far-right keeps calling the left and liberals "authoritarian." I always thought it was just a projection since the far-right is so borderline, if not outright, fascist, but now I've just had a great demonstration over on Reddit of just that very thing.

Who knew that "women" was now considered a "majority group" (according to Reddit's definition...while "gender" cannot be discriminated against, biological sex is fair game) that can now be legitimately hated on without any limits, but if actual women get together to talk about women's issues, then it's considered "hate speech".

While I do still believe that there cannot be a true coalition between conservative Christians and feminists because of the seemingly irreconcilable beliefs on "women's roles," it seems that we do have some "common enemies" so to speak.

I will be thinking more on this topic so nothing I've said is completely set in stone, but the above is a current portrait of what's going on in my thoughts today.

Agreed. Agreed 200%.

I have been doing a lot of research on the transgender issue since the latest J.K. Rowling fiasco, particularly on the conflict between trans-women and lesbian "cis"-women, and some of what I've discovered has been truly disturbing.

Have you run across the term "cotton ceiling?" It was coined by a trans-woman inappropriate content star to describe the difficulty that trans-women who identify as lesbians have getting sexual access to "cis"-lesbian women, and is framed as some sort of boundary to true equality that must be overcome. You are oppressing me if you don't want to sleep with me, just like the good old MRA crowd. It seems that some lesbians feel so pressured to have relationships with people they consider biological men to prove that they are not bigoted that they end up describing the results as a form of conversion therapy.

I'm also picking up on how any woman who questions whether it's safe for women's rights to eliminate the category of "biological woman" legally can be outright accused of hysteria.

 

[St. Helens]

It's interesting you should post that now, Bekki. Over recent days I've had thoughts running in a related direction (about common enemies); in a few days I'll be participating in a group discussion on feminism and the sex industry, and in the preparatory reading for that I've been feeling that there's a convergence there between conservatives and those feminists who still see the sex industry as a manifestation of patriarchy.

Meanwhile, the mainstream of feminist thought seems to have run on from there to thinking all problems will be solved if we decriminalise and destigmatise the industry, but I'm really not buying that...

I do not think that the sex industry should be legalized. It objectifies women. There definitely is a convergence when it comes to this topic.

But when to comes to feminism - I find myself more on the liberal end of the spectrum, because it is probably due to my professional background as a servicewoman.

 

[Paidiske]

Is it still difficult for women in the armed services?

I never really gave these issues much thought until I found myself experiencing how difficult it is to be a woman in a contested space.

 

[bekkilyn]

Agreed. Agreed 200%.

I have been doing a lot of research on the transgender issue since the latest J.K. Rowling fiasco, particularly on the conflict between trans-women and lesbian "cis"-women, and some of what I've discovered has been truly disturbing.

Have you run across the term "cotton ceiling?" It was coined by a trans-woman inappropriate content star to describe the difficulty that trans-women who identify as lesbians have getting sexual access to "cis"-lesbian women, and is framed as some sort of boundary to true equality that must be overcome. You are oppressing me if you don't want to sleep with me, just like the good old MRA crowd. It seems that some lesbians feel so pressured to have relationships with people they consider biological men to prove that they are not bigoted that they end up describing the results as a form of conversion therapy.

I'm also picking up on how any woman who questions whether it's safe for women's rights to eliminate the category of "biological woman" legally can be outright accused of hysteria.

I think I heard "cotton ceiling" for the first time two or three days ago on one of the groups that was banned over on Reddit and it was extremely disturbing to me. The TRA movement seems to me that it's just another not-so-cleverly disguised facet of the MRA movement. Men have had these "lesbian fantasies" as a fetish for ages, and the "cotton ceiling" thing seems just their latest tactic of trying to indulge in that fetish.

There is a huge push to eliminate sex in favor of gender and women are being silenced practically everywhere for speaking up. It's the left's version of science denial.

 

[bekkilyn]

I do not think that the sex industry should be legalized. It objectifies women. There definitely is a convergence when it comes to this topic.

But when to comes to feminism - I find myself more on the liberal end of the spectrum, because it is probably due to my professional background as a servicewoman.

Oh I forgot to mention my mother is also a Navy vet. I still have her old Bluejackets' Manual.

 

[archer75]

I think I heard "cotton ceiling" for the first time two or three days ago on one of the groups that was banned over on Reddit and it was extremely disturbing to me. The TRA movement seems to me that it's just another not-so-cleverly disguised facet of the MRA movement. Men have had these "lesbian fantasies" as a fetish for ages, and the "cotton ceiling" thing seems just their latest tactic of trying to indulge in that fetish.

There is a huge push to eliminate sex in favor of gender and women are being silenced practically everywhere for speaking up. It's the left's version of science denial.

The cotton ceiling thing is so utterly foul. When I was in high school and college, they told us OVER and OVER, if someone doesn't want to have sex with you, the only permissible response is to walk away. You just drop it. You don't have a fit over it.

And now there's a whole social movement to affirm the utter wrongness of women who...don't want to have sex with you. Although the incels are considered pathetic, the trans-crowd is considered...great? Mainstream? Totally nuts. It wasn't long ago we heard who you sleep with is YOUR business, etc. That idea has been cancelled.

I really don't understand WHY this is happening...the various conspiracy theories don't hold water for ne.

 

[bekkilyn]

The cotton ceiling thing is so utterly foul. When I was in high school and college, they told us OVER and OVER, if someone doesn't want to have sex with you, the only permissible response is to walk away. You just drop it. You don't have a fit over it.

And now there's a whole social movement to affirm the utter wrongness of women who...don't want to have sex with you. Although the incels are considered pathetic, the trans-crowd is considered...great? Mainstream? Totally nuts. It wasn't long ago we heard who you sleep with is YOUR business, etc. That idea has been cancelled.

I really don't understand WHY this is happening...the various conspiracy theories don't hold water for ne.

I think part of the "why" is that there are a whole lot of people that kind of just put LGBTQIXYZ+++ all in one big bucket and think it's all the same thing, and that maybe it's largely about gay marriage and human rights and most people just really don't have a problem with other people going about their own business provided it's not harming someone else.

And then if you're "liberal" or "woke" then you don't want to seem like you're phobic of any of the letters so you just believe and/or go along with whatever seems to be the right thing to do. I don't believe most people have really deeply thought these things through or they would realize how nuts it all is.

 

[archer75]

I think part of the "why" is that there are a whole lot of people that kind of just put LGBTQIXYZ+++ all in one big bucket and think it's all the same thing, and that maybe it's largely about gay marriage and human rights and most people just really don't have a problem with other people going about their own business provided it's not harming someone else.

And then if you're "liberal" or "woke" then you don't want to seem like you're phobic of any of the letters so you just believe and/or go along with whatever seems to be the right thing to do. I don't believe most people have really deeply thought these things through or they would realize how nuts it all is.

I don't doubt that you're right, but they will be too "all-in" latrr to pull back their support. It happens with political candidates all the time....

 

[Silmarien]

The cotton ceiling thing is so utterly foul. When I was in high school and college, they told us OVER and OVER, if someone doesn't want to have sex with you, the only permissible response is to walk away. You just drop it. You don't have a fit over it.

And now there's a whole social movement to affirm the utter wrongness of women who...don't want to have sex with you. Although the incels are considered pathetic, the trans-crowd is considered...great? Mainstream? Totally nuts. It wasn't long ago we heard who you sleep with is YOUR business, etc. That idea has been cancelled.

I really don't understand WHY this is happening...the various conspiracy theories don't hold water for ne.

Having explored it a bit, it seems to be an extension of the older idea that if a white person is in favor of equal rights for black people but would not be interested in dating black people, then the root of that disinterest is racism. (Similarly, if someone is just going to go around having casual sex with people of color without being interested in a genuine relationship.)

It's a tricky question, since on one hand, these issues do exist, but on the other hand, so do personal preferences. I would view the sexual objectification of minorities as a way bigger problem than whether or not people are interested in interracial relationships.

Something similar is going on here, except that their demand isn't merely that people recognize them as having equal value as human beings and equal protection under the law, but agreement with their particular theory of gender identity. The trans-activist says: If you believe that we are really men/women, even if we are pre-op, and you are attracted to men/women, then you should be willing to date us. And often that's not the case. I think the fact that their dating options actually are seriously limited is sometimes taken as a rejection of their gender identity, so it is something that must be overcome.

I don't think a lot of people recognize what's going on, especially since their targets are usually lesbians, who are already a marginalized community with little visibility.

The whole thing has made me more skeptical of the notion of gender identity, absent actual issues like gender dysphoria, since if it looks like a duck, acts like a duck, threatens violence against women like a duck, complains that women won't sleep with it like a duck, then it's probably an MRA. So it looks like socialization matters after all.

 

[Gregorikos]

I've been rethinking this topic since the latest abuse of JK Rowling because of her statements that biological sex is real and what happened yesterday over on Reddit where over 2000 conservative and feminist subs were both banned as "hate" groups, while at the same time not touching the multitude of violent inappropriate contentographic and misogynistic and incel subs that have become all the more dominant over there.

There is not one single group left over there (that hasn't gone private) where biological women can discuss issues pertaining to biological women. If we don't agree that there are 97,000 different genders that we can just put on each morning like a set of clothing, then we are considered "transphobic". Conservatives and (radical) feminists may be the only two groups left who share some consensus on the fact that there are indeed two biological sexes.

Even the LGB community is being persecuted for being "transphobic" because they are attracted to the same SEX and not the same "gender" (whatever the heck a gender is).

There are very valid cases of gender dysphoria and these people need to be helped and to have their safe spaces where they are not oppressed and murdered, but now it's gotten to the point where any dude in a dress can just "identify into" being a women and take over all of women's spaces, and if women don't like it, then we are labeled as "transphobic". The TRA movement has largely become another men's movement of the ugliest variety and the latest attack on JK Rowling emphasizes that ugliness. I very highly doubt most of those people are actually transgender in the sense they have gender dysphoria, especially considering it is less than 1 percent of the population.

I had no idea any of this stuff was going on. I'm the type of person who believes that everyone should have basic human rights and civil rights regardless of whatever demographic the belong to. But now I'm really beginning to understand why the far-right keeps calling the left and liberals "authoritarian." I always thought it was just a projection since the far-right is so borderline, if not outright, fascist, but now I've just had a great demonstration over on Reddit of just that very thing.

Who knew that "women" was now considered a "majority group" (according to Reddit's definition...while "gender" cannot be discriminated against, biological sex is fair game) that can now be legitimately hated on without any limits, but if actual women get together to talk about women's issues, then it's considered "hate speech".

While I do still believe that there cannot be a true coalition between conservative Christians and feminists because of the seemingly irreconcilable beliefs on "women's roles," it seems that we do have some "common enemies" so to speak.

I will be thinking more on this topic so nothing I've said is completely set in stone, but the above is a current portrait of what's going on in my thoughts today.

So many Christians and conservatives recoil at the word "feminist"- many of them don't understand the issues at all.

For example when Tucker Carlson interviewed Kara Dansky of the Women's Liberation Front about the trans issue, he seemed floored when she described herself as a radical feminist. He apparently thought it was a slur. So there's the first problem. Conservatives don't know what radical feminism is.

But they (we) need to learn. Because I completely agree with the premise here- conservatives and Radfems need to work together.

 

[Paidiske]

I think, too - thinking both about Silmarien's excellent post and the reading I've been doing on the sex industry - there are some other, underlying issues and assumptions which play into both. For example, somehow along the way as we tried to build a healthier culture around sex (as an activity, not an identity), we seem to have created the cultural assumption that everyone is entitled to sex, on their terms.

But while I think we all have a right to be free from sexual exploitation or violence, I don't think we have a right to expect as much sex as we want, the way we want, within the relationship that we want. All of that is negotiated, and the reality is that for many people those negotiations won't be "successful." This was true even when the cultural expectation was that sex was for marriage; there were always some who didn't find the right person or for whom that didn't work out.

And I don't know how we re-wind that assumption without coming across as either anti-sex or heavily controlling; and yet I think that assumption of entitlement is doing an awful lot of damage.

 

[St. Helens]

The whole trans issue is thorny. Lets look at it in sports. The trans thing as my husband say repeatedly--get this: my husband is saying it -- has ruined women's sports. Those born women are being pushed out of sports and replaced by these transwomen because they are bigger and stronger than genetic females. Now my husband is pretty much an all around social conservative and he's speaking out for women athletes. He suggests that these transgender individuals, if they want to compete in sports, that they have their own category. They are just too big. They are wiping out the women athletes. The hard fact is that women run smaller than people born male. Males have longer legs which makes them faster on the track and on bicycles.

 

[St. Helens]

I think, too - thinking both about Silmarien's excellent post and the reading I've been doing on the sex industry - there are some other, underlying issues and assumptions which play into both. For example, somehow along the way as we tried to build a healthier culture around sex (as an activity, not an identity), we seem to have created the cultural assumption that everyone is entitled to sex, on their terms.

The whole incel bit that is developing is built on this belief that men are entitled to have sex. The incel thinks he is entitled to use another human being (Women), but he isn't successful for one reason or another. So rage and resentment builds. Incels are misogynistic because of this resentment. They tend to believe that women are to be treated as sex objects with few rights. Six years ago I had never heard of incels. I am surprised that Reddit tolerates this group. That had banned a couple of incel groups 2017.