Resurrection, First Resurrection and New Birth

claninja

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So we are in agreement then, that being spiritually buried with Christ through baptism, and raised spiritually with him through faith to walk in the newness of life that results in us never being hurt by the 2nd death and becoming a kingdom of priests to God is being born again?
 
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claninja

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While that might work on this side of life while someone is still physically alive, it results in utter nonsense when one tries to apply that to someone after they have already physically died and are awaiting a bodily resurrection.

I would have to agree. According to the NT being buried with Christ through baptism and being raised through Faith to walk in newness of life (being born again) results in us never having to be hurt by the 2nd death (John 11:25-26) and becoming a kingdom of priests to God (1 peter 2:9).

It might look like this----and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands---they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years(after they have already physically died)---this is the first resurrection.



I believe revelation 20:6 is the key to understanding verses of 4-5.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

The NT mentions that we do share in the resurrection of Christ spiritually when we come to faith:

Romans 6:4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

colossians 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

This results in us never being hurt by the 2nd death.......

John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life.d Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

.....and becoming a kingdom of priests to God

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Therefore I view revelation 20:4-5 in similar fashion as ephesians 2. Just as those on thrones judging, and those beheaded, and those who didn't worship the beast nor took its mark, who shared in the 1st resurrection, lived and reigned with Christ, so to when we were dead but made alive through Christ's resurrection, we raised up with him and seated in the heavenly places in Christ.

ephesians 2:5-6 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


Amils ignore the part about being priests of God and Christ, and how that is being applied, not to someone that hasn't even physically died yet, but to someone that already has.

Not all Amils. Augustine, the so called father of Amil, believed it applied to those being born again prior to physical death. Many Amils hold to the at belief.
 
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claninja

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I've been baptised in the holy ghost.
It was Aug 31,1998

Good and praise God for that. So you partook in Christ's resurrection spiritually, by being baptised into his death and raised to walk in newness of life (romans 6:4, colossians 2:12).

But I havnt died yet so no, I havnt been resurrected.

I didn't ask if you physically died and were resurrected bodily. The questions you did not respond to were

1.) are you no longer affected by the 2nd death (John 11:25-26, revelation 2:11) ?

2.) are you a member of the royal priesthood to God (1 peter 2:9)?

If your answer is yes to either of those, then revelation 20:6 applies to you.

 
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shilohsfoal

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Good and praise God for that. So you partook in Christ's resurrection spiritually, by being baptised into his death and raised to walk in newness of life (romans 6:4, colossians 2:12).



I didn't ask if you physically died and were resurrected bodily. The questions you did not respond to were

1.) are you no longer affected by the 2nd death (John 11:25-26, revelation 2:11) ?

2.) are you a member of the royal priesthood to God (1 peter 2:9)?

If your answer is yes to either of those, then revelation 20:6 applies to you.

Well the holy spirit which I have received hasn't died either. I was born but I havnt died. But Rev 20:4 isn't even about me or you so its irrelevant. Rev 20:4 is about the saints who are killed for thier testimony of Christ and who did not worship the beast or its image. You and I are not even in John's conversation because you nor I have been killed for our testimony of Christ. For us to Add ourselves to the conversation would be to alter God's word and thus adding to the book of Revelation.

I would prefer since John did not mentioned me in his vision that you do the same as John and leave me out of it.
 
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Zao is life

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So we are in agreement then, that being spiritually buried with Christ through baptism, and raised spiritually with him through faith to walk in the newness of life that results in us never being hurt by the 2nd death and becoming a kingdom of priests to God is being born again?
We are in agreement that spiritual birth from above results in us sharing with Christ in His death, burial (of the body) and bodily resurrection. We are in agreement (I hope) that Jesus did not die spiritually (because His Spirit did not die) and He was not raised spiritually, but by His Spirit which was alive He was raised bodily, coming out of the tomb.
 
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DavidPT

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Not all Amils. Augustine, the so called father of Amil, believed it applied to those being born again prior to physical death. Many Amils hold to the at belief.

So why is Revelation 20:4 only referring to someone after they have died, and not to someone while they are still physically alive before they have even died? John didn't see anyone in that verse who are still physically alive but are initially spiritually dead, then because they become born again(first resurrection), they live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

The first resurrection is not being applied to someone before they have died, because if it was John would have seen examples of that in the vision, except he clearly didn't if he is only seeing examples of someone that has already physically died. That's who the first resurrection is being applied to. That's who---but they shall be priests of God and Christ---is being applied to, and not to someone who hasn't even physically died yet. How can that not be adding to the text things not present in the text?

How can Revelation 20:4 only make sense per Amil, but not make sense per Premil? At least per Premil----but they shall be priests of God and Christ---Premil would have this occurring in the correct location, that being on the earth, and not in heaven instead.

There is no such thing as being priests of God and Christ in heaven while awaiting a bodily resurrection, but there would have to be such a thing if Amil is the correct position, since that part is being applied to martyrs after they have already died. IOW, wherever they are living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, they are also being priests of God and Christ, at the same location. If heaven is meant according to Amils, then that's where they are being priests of God and Christ at. I can understand someone willing to accept this nonsense if one were Catholic. But surely not all Amils are Catholic, are they?


Some Amils might argue, none of us are applying the part about being priests to God and Christ, while someone is reigning in heaven awaiting a bodily resurrection, thus this is a straw man argument. It doesn't matter that Amils might not be applying that to someone after they have already physically died, Revelation 20:4 and 20:6 clearly are, though. That's what counts.
 
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claninja

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Well the holy spirit which I have received hasn't died either. I was born but I havnt died. But Rev 20:4 isn't even about me or you so its irrelevant. Rev 20:4 is about the saints who are killed for thier testimony of Christ and who did not worship the beast or its image. You and I are not even in John's conversation because you nor I have been killed for our testimony of Christ. For us to Add ourselves to the conversation would be to alter God's word and thus adding to the book of Revelation.

I would prefer since John did not mentioned me in his vision that you do the same as John and leave me out of it.

this doesn’t address the questions I asked. By partaking in Christ’s resurrection through being born again will the 2nd death no longer hurt you (John 11:25-26)? Are you a member of the royal priesthood to God (1 Peter 2:9)?
 
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claninja

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We are in agreement that spiritual birth from above results in us sharing with Christ in His death, burial (of the body) and bodily resurrection. We are in agreement (I hope) that Jesus did not die spiritually (because His Spirit did not die) and He was not raised spiritually, but by His Spirit which was alive He was raised bodily, coming out of the tomb.

great we are in agreement here. Would you then agree that this being born again through spiritual baptism Into Christ’s death and resurrection results in us never being hurt by the 2nd death (John 11:25-26) and becoming a kingdom of priests (1 Peter 2:9)?
 
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Zao is life

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great we are in agreement here. Would you then agree that this being born again through spiritual baptism Into Christ’s death and resurrection results in us never being hurt by the 2nd death (John 11:25-26) and becoming a kingdom of priests (1 Peter 2:9)?
We are not born again through spiritual baptism into Christ's death. Spiritual baptism into Christ's death is a result of our having born from above by the Spirit of Christ.
 
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claninja

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So why is Revelation 20:4 only referring to someone after they have died, and not to someone while they are still physically alive before they have even died? John didn't see anyone in that verse who are still physically alive but are initially spiritually dead, then because they become born again(first resurrection), they live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:4 does not only refer to someone after they die.

Through sitting on thrones and judging, they live and reign with Christ because Christ lives and reigns and we are one with Him. Through persecution And martyrdom, they live and reign with Christ because Christ lives and reigns and we are one with him . Through not following after the world, but holding on to Jesus they live and reign with Christ, because Jesus lives and reigns and we are one with him




The first resurrection is not being applied to someone before they have died, because if it was John would have seen examples of that in the vision, except he clearly didn't if he is only seeing examples of someone that has already physically died. That's who the first resurrection is being applied to. That's who---but they shall be priests of God and Christ---is being applied to, and not to someone who hasn't even physically died yet. How can that not be adding to the text things not present in the text?

there is only one first resurrection: Jesus. Any bodily resurrection after Jesus’ would not be first.


There is no such thing as being priests of God and Christ in heaven while awaiting a bodily resurrection, but there would have to be such a thing if Amil is the correct position, since that part is being applied to martyrs after they have already died. IOW, wherever they are living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, they are also being priests of God and Christ, at the same location. If heaven is meant according to Amils, then that's where they are being priests of God and Christ at. I can understand someone willing to accept this nonsense if one were Catholic. But surely not Amils are Catholic, are they?

does the 2nd death no longer harm you because of you partaking in Christ’s death and resurrection Through baptism and faith?

are you a member of the royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9) because of your new birth in Christ?
 
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claninja

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We are not born again through spiritual baptism into Christ's death. Spiritual baptism into Christ's death is a result of our having born from above by the Spirit of Christ.
Sure, But that doesn’t address the results. Are you no longer hurt by the 2nd death as a result? Are you now a member of the royal priesthood as a result?
 
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Zao is life

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Sure, But that doesn’t address the results. Are no longer hurt by the 2nd death as a result? Are you now a member of the royal priesthood as a result?
My reply to that would depend on whether or not I believe in OSAS, would it not?

Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven.
But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven. Matthew 10:32-33

Those who had been beheaded because of their testimony to Christ and had been killed for their refusal to receive the mark of the beast had confessed Him and had not denied Him, so they are told they will not be hurt by the second death.
 
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shilohsfoal

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this doesn’t address the questions I asked. By partaking in Christ’s resurrection through being born again will the 2nd death no longer hurt you (John 11:25-26)? Are you a member of the royal priesthood to God (1 Peter 2:9)?

I should be fine as long as I don't take anything out of Revelation such as the first resurrection.
But like I've said, I will not be taking part in the first resurrection. That is reserved for others. I will be taking part in the final resurrection.

Revelation 22:19 KJV: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

You don't take anything away or add to revelation do you? Be careful you don't add yourself where you don't belong.If you have not been beheaded for your witness of Jesus and then been resurrected, it would be safe to not claim to be one of those who do.
 
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DavidPT

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My reply to that would depend on whether or not I believe in OSAS, would it not?

And this is what destroys the Amil doctrine, IMO.

1) Revelation 20:4-6 makes it crystal clear, that once someone has taken part in the first resurrection, one can never lose that resurrection ever.

2) The Bible teaches that NOSAS is the correct position. Which BTW, it does, though I realize that is debatable

Some scenarios.

A) The first resurrection involves being born again, and that the Bible teaches NOSAS.

B) The first resurrection involves being bodily raised from the dead after having died, and that the Bible teaches NOSAS.

Between A) and B), which one agrees with 1)? Obviously B. It doesn't matter that the Bible might be teaching NOSAS, because no one who has lost their salvation would be being bodily raised during the first resurrection to begin with, thus only those who remain saved to the end would be rising in that resurrection. And once they have risen in it, it can't be reversed or taken from them since they would be bodily immortal from that point on.

Per A) though, if one doesn't continue to remain saved until their dying breath, or until Christ returns, which ever might come first in their case, this indicates that, though they initially had part in the first resurrection, they obviously lost part in this resurrection, because when they are raised back to life, they are raised in the resurrection unto damnation rather than in the resurrection unto life.
 
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rwb

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So why is Revelation 20:4 only referring to someone after they have died, and not to someone while they are still physically alive before they have even died? John didn't see anyone in that verse who are still physically alive but are initially spiritually dead, then because they become born again(first resurrection), they live and reign with Christ a thousand years.

The first resurrection is not being applied to someone before they have died, because if it was John would have seen examples of that in the vision, except he clearly didn't if he is only seeing examples of someone that has already physically died. That's who the first resurrection is being applied to. That's who---but they shall be priests of God and Christ---is being applied to, and not to someone who hasn't even physically died yet. How can that not be adding to the text things not present in the text?

How can Revelation 20:4 only make sense per Amil, but not make sense per Premil? At least per Premil----but they shall be priests of God and Christ---Premil would have this occurring in the correct location, that being on the earth, and not in heaven instead.

There is no such thing as being priests of God and Christ in heaven while awaiting a bodily resurrection, but there would have to be such a thing if Amil is the correct position, since that part is being applied to martyrs after they have already died. IOW, wherever they are living and reigning with Christ a thousand years, they are also being priests of God and Christ, at the same location. If heaven is meant according to Amils, then that's where they are being priests of God and Christ at. I can understand someone willing to accept this nonsense if one were Catholic. But surely not all Amils are Catholic, are they?


Some Amils might argue, none of us are applying the part about being priests to God and Christ, while someone is reigning in heaven awaiting a bodily resurrection, thus this is a straw man argument. It doesn't matter that Amils might not be applying that to someone after they have already physically died, Revelation 20:4 and 20:6 clearly are, though. That's what counts.

The letters are to be sent to seven churches. Of course you will agree the letters are not being sent to churches filled with physically dead saints. So when John writes that Jesus is the first begotten of the dead, the prince of the kings of the earth, and that He has made us kings and priests unto God and His Father, we know that through Christ we are in life made kings and priests. Would you not agree?

Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Re 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This next passage is a vision of heaven, where the Lamb is found worthy to open the seals because He was slain and has redeemed to God a people from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.

Re 5:6 ¶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Re 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Re 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Re 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Re 5:11
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Re 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

While still living, the saints in the seven churches, who have been washed from their sins by the blood of the Lamb, in Christ are called kings of the earth, and kings and priests unto God and His Father. But in the vision of chapter 5 all who are redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb, John sees in heaven, not on the earth. They have been redeemed from all the nations of the earth, and are unto God kings and priests. And they shall reign on the earth.

Just as in Rev 20, John is here seeing the redeemed in heaven after they have physically died. Otherwise John would not be seeing them in heaven. But notice also that there is not mention of being martyred. But this passage tells us they will reign on the earth. I realize you believe the saints will be bodily resurrected to reign on this earth for one thousand physical years. But there is nothing in this passage to prove that. Why would they reign on this earth, since when Christ returns they will be physically clothed with immortality and incorruptible? And that on the last day of this age, when the last trumpet sounds the return of Christ.

The earth they will reign ON is the new earth after this first earth has passed away.

The last passage to look at is Rev 20:6.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

First saints who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb are called kings and priests while physically alive on this earth. Then John sees saints in heaven who are still called kings and priests after they have physically died. Now John writes of martyred souls as the blessed and holy, having part in the first resurrection, so the second death will not harm them, who are called priests of God and of Christ, but now they reign with Christ a thousand years. This is of course before the thousand years expire, otherwise they could not reign with Christ for a thousand years. So in these three passages from the Revelation we've been shown that saints are kings and priests in life, and after physical death in heaven, and as martyred souls in heaven. So whether clothed in mortal body, or clothed in spiritual body all who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb are kings and priests unto God and the Father. Yet you say there is no such thing as being kings and priests in heaven?
 
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rwb

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And this is what destroys the Amil doctrine, IMO.

1) Revelation 20:4-6 makes it crystal clear, that once someone has taken part in the first resurrection, one can never lose that resurrection ever.

2) The Bible teaches that NOSAS is the correct position. Which BTW, it does, though I realize that is debatable

As I suspected, you do not believe Christ when He tells us:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
 
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DavidPT

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As I suspected, you do not believe Christ when He tells us:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Right back at you then. There's plenty more than just the following, though.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The first thing to take into consideration, one doesn't threaten someone with something that is not even possible, but threatens someone with something that is possible. It becomes a threat because there is an opposite involved as well.

This verse indicates---He that overcometh---I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Obviously there has to be an opposite to this, then. What would that be?

He that does not overcometh---I will blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will not confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Who is the one being threatened here? Is it not one that is trying to overcome? Do you think that might include athiests, satantists, as some examples? Or do you think it's more likely to include someone that has professed to be saved?

You then do not believe Christ when He indicated, unless you overcome, He will instead blot your name out of the book of life? Is that teaching OSAS or NOSAS?
 
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rwb

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Right back at you then. There's plenty more than just the following, though.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The first thing to take into consideration, one doesn't threaten someone with something that is not even possible, but threatens someone with something that is possible. It becomes a threat because there is an opposite involved as well.

This verse indicates---He that overcometh---I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Obviously there has to be an opposite to this, then. What would that be?

He that does not overcometh---I will blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will not confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Who is the one being threatened here? Is it not one that is trying to overcome? Do you think that might include athiests, satantists, as some examples? Or do you think it's more likely to include someone that has professed to be saved?

You then do not believe Christ when He indicated, unless you overcome, He will instead blot your name out of the book of life? Is that teaching OSAS or NOSAS?

You're avoiding the question David! I ask if you believe Christ when He tells us:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

You're saying that overcoming is dependent upon man, rather than upon Christ. Yet Scripture tells us that IN CHRIST, we have overcome already. In Christ we have overcome the wicked one because we have known the Father. (1Jo 2:13-14) In Christ we have overcome the spirit of antichrist that was already in the world as John penned these words, because greater is He who is in us then he who is in the world. (1Jo 4:4) We aren't overcomers by persevering, we are overcomers through the Spirit in us, because we are in Christ, having been washed by the blood of the Lamb. That is why our names will not be blotted out of the Book of Life.

It is because you do not believe we have eternal life when we believe, as Christ tells us, that you cannot understand the souls John sees alive in heaven are there because physical death could not take them from the love of Christ. That is why they live and reign with Christ in this time likened to a thousand years; i.e. the whole Gospel age.

Ro 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Ro 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
Ro 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Ro 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 
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Zao is life

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The letters are to be sent to seven churches. Of course you will agree the letters are not being sent to churches filled with physically dead saints. So when John writes that Jesus is the first begotten of the dead, the prince of the kings of the earth, and that He has made us kings and priests unto God and His Father, we know that through Christ we are in life made kings and priests. Would you not agree?

Re 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Re 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

This next passage is a vision of heaven, where the Lamb is found worthy to open the seals because He was slain and has redeemed to God a people from every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.

Re 5:6 ¶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Re 5:7
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Re 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Re 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Re 5:11
And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
Re 5:12
Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

While still living, the saints in the seven churches, who have been washed from their sins by the blood of the Lamb, in Christ are called kings of the earth, and kings and priests unto God and His Father. But in the vision of chapter 5 all who are redeemed to God by the blood of the Lamb, John sees in heaven, not on the earth. They have been redeemed from all the nations of the earth, and are unto God kings and priests. And they shall reign on the earth.

Just as in Rev 20, John is here seeing the redeemed in heaven after they have physically died. Otherwise John would not be seeing them in heaven. But notice also that there is not mention of being martyred. But this passage tells us they will reign on the earth. I realize you believe the saints will be bodily resurrected to reign on this earth for one thousand physical years. But there is nothing in this passage to prove that. Why would they reign on this earth, since when Christ returns they will be physically clothed with immortality and incorruptible? And that on the last day of this age, when the last trumpet sounds the return of Christ.

The earth they will reign ON is the new earth after this first earth has passed away.

The last passage to look at is Rev 20:6.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

First saints who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb are called kings and priests while physically alive on this earth. Then John sees saints in heaven who are still called kings and priests after they have physically died. Now John writes of martyred souls as the blessed and holy, having part in the first resurrection, so the second death will not harm them, who are called priests of God and of Christ, but now they reign with Christ a thousand years. This is of course before the thousand years expire, otherwise they could not reign with Christ for a thousand years. So in these three passages from the Revelation we've been shown that saints are kings and priests in life, and after physical death in heaven, and as martyred souls in heaven. So whether clothed in mortal body, or clothed in spiritual body all who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb are kings and priests unto God and the Father. Yet you say there is no such thing as being kings and priests in heaven?
".. and shall reign with him a thousand years.". It does not say, "..and are reigning with Him.."
Kings and priests are their status. You cannot say they are reigning with Him already, because the text does not say that - unless the tense in the Greek is present-tense.
 
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rwb

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".. and shall reign with him a thousand years.". It does not say, "..and are reigning with Him.."
Kings and priests are their status. You cannot say they are reigning with Him already, because the text does not say that - unless the tense in the Greek is present-tense.

Your proving a thousand years are not one thousand years. Those already dead have already lived and reigned A thousand years, they are of the first resurrection because they lived and reigned [past tense]. But all who are blessed and holy, like them, having part in the first resurrection, will be those who shall live and reign, so they too shall live and reign with those having lived and reigned during this time likened to A thousand years also. In other words, it is not limiting living and reigning with Christ to only those who have already lived and died. John shows that all who are of the first resurrection, no matter when they live and die, are called holy and blessed, are priests and kings, and live and reign with Christ in life and death during this time likened to A thousand years. Being of the first resurrection, then dying is living and reigning with Christ A thousand years, because A thousand years represents the whole Gospel age. It is within this age that one must partake of the first resurrection in Christ, making them holy and blessed, and in death alive with Him in heaven until this time, likened to A thousand years expire.

Verse 5 is not saying the rest of the dead are the first resurrection, but that the thousand years are the first resurrection. Because it is within this symbolic time that one must partake of Christ so that even in death they will be with Christ.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Re 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 
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