Something doesn't feel right about BLM

[istodolez]

People are so desperate to blame Trump for their own parties mishaps, they actually get in the way of the ones addressing the issues.

Trump is making the situation worse, but he is by no means the author of our troubles. Not by a long shot. He is a good avatar of the long-lasting nature of our troubles and he works to divide us and needlessly antagonize minority groups but I totally agree he is not the root cause.

I really liked "The New Jim Crow" because it was not particularly hyperbolic but it clearly outlines our history since the Civil War. And it isn't just Republicans that got us here. Obviously the early incarnations of the Democrat party were very solidly racist. But even today's modern Democrat party bears responsibility with the crime legislation of the 90's which amped up the Republican "War on Drugs" and made it an effective adjunct to mass incarceration.

And the really interesting thing about mass incarceration is it does such an effective job of creating a permanent underclass of people who can never pay their debt to society. Once a felon the prisoner is always a felon even upon serving his or her sentence. Jobs become scarce, voting is often no longer allowed. Rights are stripped permanently as well as opportunities for advancement.

And that insulates us from the initial systemic racism which created the felon. Everyone is OK with punishing law breakers. It is part of how society always works. The trick is how do we create a race-based method of ensuring we get a specific race funneled into that. In some respect it's like money-laundering.

We create a justice system which is statistically far harsher (even controlling for the types of crime) on blacks than whites and then the prison system does the rest "automagically" for us!

 

[Ana the Ist]

By saying "All lives matter" is to miss the point entirely. I don't mind explaining this to you (because unless you are illiterate you already have read what the point is): the phrase "black lives matter" is meant to be "If all lives matter then we must accept that BLACK LIVES MATTER too". That's the whole thing.

Is that why this guy got fired?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...fired-for-stating-all-lives-matter-truth/amp/

No one, LITERALLY NO ONE, in the movement thinks other lives don't matter. But in AMERICA we have a history (a very long history, you can read about it if you like) of hundreds of years of brutalizing black people. It appears that to many Americans black lives do not matter.

Ohhh... you sure about that? They do stand arm in arm with racist anti-white and anti-semitic hate groups. Then there's this stuff...

I will agree that any movement tends to seek "purity of ideals" which pushes it to be more intolerant of dissent. And I think a lot of people look at the problems of the world and try to frame them in whatever frame their personal "crusade" is. It's very common. It happens on the Right (Trump found a way to hook all of America's problems on Mexicans, now he's moved to hooking all the problems on China, etc.) and it happens on the Left.

And it's always wrong....illegal immigration may be a problem but it's not all problems.

Propaganda well made is made for the dumbest amongst us....not the smartest. That's how you get a bunch of sheeple reciting the same garbage without any real understanding of what they are supporting.

Well, again, if you DON'T READ OR LISTEN then I can see how you would assume that.

I've read and listened. I know exactly where scapegoating goes.

Yeah, there IS a huge problem of racism in this country. It isn't the ONLY problem but it's a big one.

Is it? Is it a huge problem? How would you know?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Incorrect. Racism CAN BE systemic if it is part of an overall system.

Ok...

Here: think about this. We in the US have a justice system (system, see?) and it has build into it a suite of features that helps ensure more young black men are funneled into it through much harsher sentencing and less likelihood of jury trials for black offenders than for whites (even for the exact same type of crimes).

Where's the law or policy requiring this? Oh yeah...there is none.

Blacks and whites use some drugs like marijuana at roughly equal rates

Almost no one goes to jail for drug use.

and even sell it at roughly equal rates (obviously I'm talking about places where it is still not legal) yet blacks are far more likely to be get jail time for it.

Citation?

That is both SYSTEMIC and RACIST.

The law applies equally to all offenders....not systemic.

LOL. That's pretty funny.

It's the truth.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Citation?

Rates of Drug Use and Sales, by Race; Rates of Drug Related Criminal Justice Measures, by Race | The Hamilton Project

https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/us0309web_1.pdf

 

[Ana the Ist]

Rates of Drug Use and Sales, by Race; Rates of Drug Related Criminal Justice Measures, by Race | The Hamilton Project

https://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/us0309web_1.pdf

As far as I can tell, the first chart is from a study called "prisoners in 2015" by Ann Carson...

It's reporting based upon criminals...not the general population.

 

[istodolez]

Where's the law or policy requiring this? Oh yeah...there is none.

So your approach is to NOT engage in the conversation honestly? I never said there was a LAW demanding blacks receive harsher sentences for the same as whites. BUT IT HAPPENS.

Almost no one goes to jail for drug use.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Yeah, whatever.

Citation?

Rocks beat me to it. Cool.

The law applies equally to all offenders....not systemic.

Do unicorns wander down the streets where you live?

It's the truth.

Well, let's just say when I search the AMerican Politics forum and filter it by my handle and the search term "solutions" I get let's count... 7 results right off the bat. Of course some of the recent ones are me trying to tell you to DO YER OWN HOMEWORK, but the earlier ones discuss specific solutions.

So, your "Truth" is just like your TrumpTruth: alternate fact. Here's a screenshot of some of the returns (the funny thing is, I could point you to any single one of these directly but it's so FUNNY to watch you fail at a simple, simple task! LOL. Sorry, I know it's rude to laugh at someone's lack of skill in simple topics, but c'mon...)

 

[istodolez]

Ohhh... you sure about that? They do stand arm in arm with racist anti-white and anti-semitic hate groups. Then there's this stuff...

Well, I'll DEFINITELY agree with you that the loon with the "White Lives Matter Too Much" is very much on the fringe. Certainly not mainstream.

But let's play that card exactly as you have laid it out: you are debating against BLM and you know who else is against BLM? Neo-Nazis. So I guess anyone who speaks out against BLM is a neo-nazi by the metric you have established.

And it's always wrong....illegal immigration may be a problem but it's not all problems.

Agreed.

Is it? Is it a huge problem? How would you know?

Because I actually pay attention. I read widely. And I've been alive more than 10 years. So...well, you know. I like data. That's not everyone's bag. It's mine.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

As far as I can tell, the first chart is from a study called "prisoners in 2015" by Ann Carson...

It's reporting based upon criminals...not the general population.

Okay, here's a national study from 2018, which shows the same data, more or less, on drug usage:

Section 1 PE Tables – Results from the 2018 National Survey on Drug Use and Health: Detailed Tables, SAMHSA, CBHSQ

Table 1.23B is the one you want.

 

[rjs330]

If you would like to talk about that I will do so. But please do not insert your comments as if my answer to the other poster's question required a "solution" per se.

Now, what is the solution? Well, education, as you propose is an EXCELLENT start. But education must ALSO happen in the white community. We must realize that we have enjoyed a great degree of privilege unearned by granted us solely due to our skin. As such it is up to us to:

1. Listen when people of color tell us their problems.
2. Do try not to make it all about ourselves (white fragility)
3. When we are in a position to hire or give business to someone, let us understand our internal, sometimes even unconscious biases and work past them.
4. Let us vastly improve the welfare system and access to affordable healthcare for ALL Americans

That's a small start. There's other things we can do. We can stop this war on drugs, we can ensure our justice system is far more equitable, we can shift funding in the police toward mental healthcare and social workers as well as deescalation teams, etc. We also need to de-militarize the police.

There's a ton we can do right now. Today. But a big component is going to be us white folks who have gotten so much from a system that enshrines (even mildly) racial inequity.

These are the solutions you proposed.

I brought them forward for discussion.

Let's just unpack point 1.

1. Listen- you've proposed we all need to listen or else. You've stated we need to start or there will be more intimidation and violence.

But you failed to really say what listening is. We can listen and say we really do believe there is racism in America. And I believe their is. But do I have to believe it is systemic? Do I have to believe I am a racist. What changes do I need to make I order to show that I am listening? What exactly do I need to do to prove I am listening? Do I need to agree with BLM? Do I need to agree at all? If I disagree does that mean I am not listening?

 

[istodolez]

1. Listen- you've proposed we all need to listen or else. You've stated we need to start or there will be more intimidation and violence.

Well, I've always felt that the first thing I should do when someone starts protesting against me is to ask them what the issue is and then listen to what they tell me.

But you failed to really say what listening is.

It should be quite obvious.

We can listen and say we really do believe there is racism in America. And I believe their is. But do I have to believe it is systemic?

Well, the reason I like the "systemic" modifier is that it seems to be an integral part of how our systems run. Not necessarily a REQUIREMENT of the system, but rather that it happens systematically across the system.

Do I have to believe I am a racist.

This is always a tough one (especially for people who don't necessarily have experience in the Christian faith where "original sin" and "Grace" are part of the way we are raised). Indeed I doubt very highly you act in any over racist way. I doubt you are a racist in the same way David Duke is a racist. You're just a regular person like me. You want the best for people around you. And you don't hate any minority group.

But I'll confess that my life has been one of growing and changing. I was raised in the soft-racism of the Midwest by parents from a bygone age. So racism was quite common. Not super virulent, there weren't many black folks in my town. But I started to pick up the vernacular and I still remember one night when my sister-in-law told me I had said something quite unkind about a black person on TV and that I shouldn't say things like that. I was a little kid and it was transformative. So my life has been one of learning slowly but surely what racism looks like. I still struggle with biases that I carry around with me. I, like you, don't want to act on any of them, but they're still inside me. And then there's the whole "unconscious bias" part but that's a tougher thing to talk about.

So the short of it is: I consider myself a racist. I want to do better. In order for me to try to move forward I NEED to accept my flaws. The only way I can grow is if I see in myself a NEED to grow.

Do I need to agree with BLM? Do I need to agree at all? If I disagree does that mean I am not listening?

Well, first off, drop the whole "marxist revolution" stuff. It's not a reality. It's an overt attempt to demonize the movement. There is plenty for you to disagree with when anyone proposes social changes but to go off the rails and start blasting full-blown conspiracy stuff, well, sorry that makes it look like you aren't honestly engaging in a conversation.

Imagine if I wished to debate religion with you and I started off by saying you are EXACTLY the same as Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist church. Or if I said you were the exact same thing as the Taliban only a Christian version. That would be ABSURD in the extreme. AND (hopefully) insulting to you. That would not be a way to start a conversation would it?

 

[Radagast]

Well, first off, drop the whole "marxist revolution" stuff. It's not a reality.

No, that's exactly what the movement is. The "black lives" slogan is being used to campaign for a wide range of totally unrelated issues.

 

[istodolez]

No, that's exactly what the movement is. The "black lives" slogan is being used to campaign for a wide range of totally unrelated issues.

If you find extremists (as you do in most movements) it is not allowable to paint the entire movement that way. Otherwise we could all just assume that ALL Christians are like the Westboro Baptists Church.

 

[Jay Sea]

The problem with us Whites is that we look the same as the enemy so we do not have the "race"card to call out the exploiters; the slave masters. We need to put our humanity ahead of the artificial notions of "race" and "nationality" and get together the fight against the Elite/political/economic class is to stand together. How that can be done I do not know. I feel powerless.

In Love
Jay

 

[Ana the Ist]

Okay, here's a national study from 2018, which shows the same data, more or less, on drug usage:

Section 1 PE Tables – Results from the 2018 National Survey on Drug Use and Health: Detailed Tables, SAMHSA, CBHSQ

Table 1.23B is the one you want.

That's drug use, it has nothing to do with drug sales.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, I'll DEFINITELY agree with you that the loon with the "White Lives Matter Too Much" is very much on the fringe. Certainly not mainstream.

I'm not sure how a life can matter too much.

But let's play that card exactly as you have laid it out: you are debating against BLM and you know who else is against BLM? Neo-Nazis. So I guess anyone who speaks out against BLM is a neo-nazi by the metric you have established.

You made a claim that people in BLM believe all lives matter.

Al Sharpton’s Group And Black Lives Matter Team Up For Pro-Farrakhan Protest

Here they are teaming up with anti-Semitic and anti-white racist hate groups....to defend another leader of a racist hate group.

That's the metric I set up. They support racists when they're racist against whites and jews.

If you ever see me doing the same, feel free to call me out on it.

Because I actually pay attention. I read widely. And I've been alive more than 10 years. So...well, you know. I like data. That's not everyone's bag. It's mine.

According to the data...the US is one of the least racist nations on the planet.

 

[istodolez]

I'm not sure how a life can matter too much.


You made a claim that people in BLM believe all lives matter.

Al Sharpton’s Group And Black Lives Matter Team Up For Pro-Farrakhan Protest

Had not heard about that. It is extremely unfortunate if it is key to the BLM movement. Similar arguments were made against some leaders of the Women's March.

Thanks for passing that along.

According to the data...the US is one of the least racist nations on the planet.

I'm an American so I really care about how my country is dealing with a terrible racist history. I don't measure my values based on how the worst behave.

And in the end America is sufficiently racist to have to deal with the matter, not "whatabout..."

 

[rjs330]

Well, I've always felt that the first thing I should do when someone starts protesting against me is to ask them what the issue is and then listen to what they tell me.



It should be quite obvious.



Well, the reason I like the "systemic" modifier is that it seems to be an integral part of how our systems run. Not necessarily a REQUIREMENT of the system, but rather that it happens systematically across the system.



This is always a tough one (especially for people who don't necessarily have experience in the Christian faith where "original sin" and "Grace" are part of the way we are raised). Indeed I doubt very highly you act in any over racist way. I doubt you are a racist in the same way David Duke is a racist. You're just a regular person like me. You want the best for people around you. And you don't hate any minority group.

But I'll confess that my life has been one of growing and changing. I was raised in the soft-racism of the Midwest by parents from a bygone age. So racism was quite common. Not super virulent, there weren't many black folks in my town. But I started to pick up the vernacular and I still remember one night when my sister-in-law told me I had said something quite unkind about a black person on TV and that I shouldn't say things like that. I was a little kid and it was transformative. So my life has been one of learning slowly but surely what racism looks like. I still struggle with biases that I carry around with me. I, like you, don't want to act on any of them, but they're still inside me. And then there's the whole "unconscious bias" part but that's a tougher thing to talk about.

So the short of it is: I consider myself a racist. I want to do better. In order for me to try to move forward I NEED to accept my flaws. The only way I can grow is if I see in myself a NEED to grow.



Well, first off, drop the whole "marxist revolution" stuff. It's not a reality. It's an overt attempt to demonize the movement. There is plenty for you to disagree with when anyone proposes social changes but to go off the rails and start blasting full-blown conspiracy stuff, well, sorry that makes it look like you aren't honestly engaging in a conversation.

Imagine if I wished to debate religion with you and I started off by saying you are EXACTLY the same as Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist church. Or if I said you were the exact same thing as the Taliban only a Christian version. That would be ABSURD in the extreme. AND (hopefully) insulting to you. That would not be a way to start a conversation would it?

Listening isn't obvious. Because to many on the left you are not listening if you disagree. You prove you are listening by agreeing with the premise. So no it is not obvious at all.

And our system does not run on racism. I posted an article about how black and white criminals are nearly identical in criminal sentencing with the exception of certain drugs. In that research it also showed how black criminals actually do better at getting off on charges than whites. Also there are no laws that target blacks and haven't since the Jim Crowe days. And you know that.

Yes there is original sin, BUT there is no original racism. Racism has become such a broad term that covers everything. That is a false premise and a by it's creation makes EVERYONE racist. It's a lie and a false premise. For example, in our University we have 68 African American students. 50+ of them are here due to athletics. 18 are here just to study. So when someone speaks with a black student and asks "are you on a sports team?" I have heard it say that is racist. Why? Cause 75%+ of the black students are hear for sports?

Most of the female students are here for the teachers programs or nursing programs. If you ask a female students if they are here for the teachers program or nursing program is that sexist? Of course not.

It has to do with the odds. I had a store that sold hobby products. And I could tell when a gamer came in, an RC guy, a Railroad guy etc. Cause that was the odds. Being racist is NOT as broad a term as it is used these days. Now a days racism is used for everything.

And BLM IS a Marxist radical left wing organization. They aren't even hiding it. It's all over their websites and many in their organization spout the philosophies of marxism.

You can't spout Nazi philosophy and then say "I don't really believe in Nazism."

 

[istodolez]

I posted an article about how black and white criminals are nearly identical in criminal sentencing

US Sentencing Commission: "Black male offenders continued to receive longer sentences than similarly situated White male offenders. Black male offenders received sentences on average 19.1 percent longer than similarly situated White male offenders during the Post-Report period (fiscal years 2012-2016), as they had for the prior four periods studied. The differences in sentence length remained relatively unchanged compared to the Post-Gall period." (SOURCE) (emphasis added)

"Across the distribution, blacks receive sentences that are almost 10 percent longer than those of comparable whites arrested for the same crimes." (SOURCE: Starr, Sonja B. "Racial Disparity in Federal Criminal Sentences." M. M. Rehavi, co-author. J. Pol. Econ. 122 no. 6 (2014): 1320-54.)

Research Finds Racial Disparities In Prison Sentences

https://news.gsu.edu/research-magazine/spring2020/incarceration

 

[istodolez]

Yes there is original sin, BUT there is no original racism.

I was trying to make a larger point. Clearly you missed it. I get it. It's hard to accept that you and I might benefit from a system that has long been established and still functions with racism being a big part of it.

Even if you and I do not do racist things on purpose, we benefit from this system. And we are largely insulated from the bad stuff that happens to black people every day.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

That's drug use, it has nothing to do with drug sales.

Ok, fair enough. I missed that that's the specific stat you were looking for. However, I have to ask why that particular number is so important. As the second source I posted (the one from Human Rights Watch) made pretty clear, the vast majority of arrests are for possession, not sales. In 2007 (the most recent data in that report), 83% of drug-related arrests were for possession. 17% were for sales.