[MOVED] Women Submitting To Their Husbands: What Christians Get Wrong

[Paidiske]

Here is why I say you all disregard scripture:

I don't remember any of you examining the most relevant scriptures regarding a wife's submission to her husband in reverence to Christ with the intent of putting them into practice.

Instead, people are disregarding this scripture and in fact advising people not to follow it.

I would love to discuss what "wives submit" meant in its original context and how we can apply it today. Any takers?

The problem is that we wouldn't agree on what the most relevant scriptures are. I would start, for example, with creation (both male and female made in God's image and sharing the work God gave them), and fall (where hierarchy/submission is part of the result of sin). Only with those foundations in place can we have a sound canonical hermeneutic for the NT passages.

So no, we're not disregarding any particular Scripture, we simply have a different understanding of how those Scriptures should be understood.

And no, I don't particularly want to have that discussion with yet another man who wants to apply Scripture in ways which reduce women's value, dignity, and agency; and to use that as grounds for personal criticism of me.

 

[Peter J Barban]

The problem is that we wouldn't agree on what the most relevant scriptures are. I would start, for example, with creation (both male and female made in God's image and sharing the work God gave them), and fall (where hierarchy/submission is part of the result of sin). Only with those foundations in place can we have a sound canonical hermeneutic for the NT passages.

So no, we're not disregarding any particular Scripture, we simply have a different understanding of how those Scriptures should be understood.

And no, I don't particularly want to have that discussion with yet another man who wants to apply Scripture in ways which reduce women's value, dignity, and agency; and to use that as grounds for personal criticism of me.

So what is your understanding of Ephesians 5: wives submit to their husbands?

Are you taking the position that husbands are wrong/sinful for wanting their wives to submit? Are wives wrong/sinful for trying to submit?

Were the Bible authors wrong?

Are you actually negating and reversing the scriptural command by telling wives not to submit to their husbands?

When you neglect the key passages of a doctrine, you leave us confused.

 

[Paidiske]

So what is your understanding of Ephesians 5: wives submit to their husbands?

Are you taking the position that husbands are wrong/sinful for wanting their wives to submit? Are wives wrong/sinful for trying to submit?

Were the Bible authors wrong?

Are you actually negating and reversing the scriptural command by telling wives not to submit to their husbands?

When you neglect the key passages of a doctrine, you leave us confused.

My understanding is that wifely submission is in the context of mutual submission (the previous verse saying "submit to one another"), and given the way the Greek literally says "wives to their own husbands," possibly emphasising the priority of the marital relationship over other relationships. A wife shouldn't look to those outside her marriage over her husband (and, by implication, neither should a husband look to those outside his marriage over his wife; but perhaps that was less of an immediate issue at the time).

So I am taking the position that one-sided submission - where a husband wants his wife to submit, but is not prepared to do likewise; or where a wife's role is seen as basically secondary to or only in service of the husband's vocation, or the like - is a distortion of God's intention for marriage; and certainly any will-to-power expressed over one's spouse is just as sinful as it would be anywhere else.

Now sometimes this is done in faith by people believing it's what God wants, and I'm sure God will honour their intention to be obedient. But we can, in attempting to be obedient, get it wrong.

So no, the Bible authors weren't wrong. No, I am not negating or reversing the scriptural command. And no, I am not neglecting any passage of Scripture.

 

[Peter J Barban]

My understanding is that wifely submission is in the context of mutual submission (the previous verse saying "submit to one another"), and given the way the Greek literally says "wives to their own husbands," possibly emphasising the priority of the marital relationship over other relationships. A wife shouldn't look to those outside her marriage over her husband (and, by implication, neither should a husband look to those outside his marriage over his wife; but perhaps that was less of an immediate issue at the time).

So I am taking the position that one-sided submission - where a husband wants his wife to submit, but is not prepared to do likewise; or where a wife's role is seen as basically secondary to or only in service of the husband's vocation, or the like - is a distortion of God's intention for marriage; and certainly any will-to-power expressed over one's spouse is just as sinful as it would be anywhere else.

Now sometimes this is done in faith by people believing it's what God wants, and I'm sure God will honour their intention to be obedient. But we can, in attempting to be obedient, get it wrong.

So no, the Bible authors weren't wrong. No, I am not negating or reversing the scriptural command. And no, I am not neglecting any passage of Scripture.

Thanks for filling me in. I'll take a break for the day while I consider your post.

 

[bèlla]

The only "problem" I am concerned with on this thread is the public expression of lack of trust in the Bible teaching on wives submitting to their husbands.

No one is disregarding the bible. We are addressing the reality that many pervert the text. Would you decry the same on the prosperity gospel or admit its misuse?

It is possible that you all have never seen a biblical marriage (one that intentionally follows all the NT instruction on marriage) and have no idea how it functions in reality. It is my humble goal to show how biblical marriage can and should work. (with the caveat that my wife doesn't want me to share too many personal/family details)

That's a sweeping statement which presents you as the sole authority in the discussion. I was reared in that environment and saw the same with loved ones. I've seen unions of sixty-years or more behind the scenes. You aren't the only one who knows what happily married looks like.

With all due respect, you can't demonstrate that without transparency and her involvement. You must provide both voices and perspectives to your audience. We can't validate her position through inference or suggestion. We have to hear from her. You need the other to provide a balanced viewpoint.

The Marriage Today ministry with Jimmy and Karen is a good example of this. They're candid about their challenges and growth. But you hear from both equally. That provides clarity and relatability.

If she's uncomfortable sharing intimate aspects of your relationship. You have to question whether God intends you to function in that role. Its harmonious and a shared work.

I have no problem getting on a stage telling my business. I'm interested in edifying and encouraging others. I chose someone who was comfortable with my openness and willing to join me. That's my passion.

~Bella

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

No one is disregarding the bible. We are addressing the reality that many pervert the text. Would you decry the same on the prosperity gospel or admit its misuse?

Prosperity gospel is an outdated form of manifest destiny which is just another form of humanism. The facts of the bible in the form of it’s full message is easily understood by all. ETA or should be.

That's a sweeping statement which presents you as the sole authority in the discussion. I was reared in that environment and saw the same with loved ones. I've seen unions of sixty-years or more behind the scenes. You aren't the only one who knows what happily married looks like.

With all due respect, you can't demonstrate that without transparency and her involvement. You must provide both voices and perspectives to your audience. We can't validate her position through inference or suggestion. We have to hear from her. You need the other to provide a balanced viewpoint.

The Marriage Today ministry with Jimmy and Karen is a good example of this. They're candid about their challenges and growth. But you hear from both equally. That provides clarity and relatability.

If she's uncomfortable sharing intimate aspects of your relationship. You have to question whether God intends you to function in that role. Its harmonious and a shared work.

I have no problem getting on a stage telling my business. I'm interested in edifying and encouraging others. I chose someone who was comfortable with my openness and willing to join me. That's my passion.

~Bella

 

[Peter J Barban]

No one is disregarding the bible. We are addressing the reality that many pervert the text. Would you decry the same on the prosperity gospel or admit its misuse?



That's a sweeping statement which presents you as the sole authority in the discussion. I was reared in that environment and saw the same with loved ones. I've seen unions of sixty-years or more behind the scenes. You aren't the only one who knows what happily married looks like.

With all due respect, you can't demonstrate that without transparency and her involvement. You must provide both voices and perspectives to your audience. We can't validate her position through inference or suggestion. We have to hear from her. You need the other to provide a balanced viewpoint.

The Marriage Today ministry with Jimmy and Karen is a good example of this. They're candid about their challenges and growth. But you hear from both equally. That provides clarity and relatability.

If she's uncomfortable sharing intimate aspects of your relationship. You have to question whether God intends you to function in that role. Its harmonious and a shared work.

I have no problem getting on a stage telling my business. I'm interested in edifying and encouraging others. I chose someone who was comfortable with my openness and willing to join me. That's my passion.

~Bella

1. As a far as I can see, you are disregarding the key text in Ephesians 5, which includes
"22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

I'm sure that people do pervert it, so let's "unpervert" it. Let's talk about how a modern wife can submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ, in accordance with this passage of God's word.

2. You are way too sensitive, to the point of imagining faults that don't exist when reading my posts. "Sweeping statements" don't begin with the caveat "It is possible". I welcome your observations on real Biblical marriages that are in accordance with the above passage of God's word.

3. If Paul can write Ephesians while unmarried and Christ can be the Lord while unmarried, then certainly I don't need to expose my wife to your scrutiny in order to proclaim the truth of the passage and biblical marriage in general.

4. If you think that the openness and transparency of yourself and others make you a superior messenger, I'm OK with that. I concede that you are a better messenger than I. The same for Jimmy and Karen.

 

[Paidiske]

3. If Paul can write Ephesians while unmarried and Christ can be the Lord while unmarried, then certainly I don't need to expose my wife to your scrutiny in order to proclaim the truth of the passage and biblical marriage in general.

No, but if you want to put yourself forward as a shining example of this working well in practice, then you need to be prepared to front up with the evidence. If you can't do that, then it shouldn't come as any surprise that we're not prepared to take your word for it.

(That's not a criticism of you, it's just a statement that such claims require evidence).

I'm sure that people do pervert it, so let's "unpervert" it. Let's talk about how a modern wife can submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ, in accordance with this passage of God's word.

To my mind, even to put it in these terms is to misinterpret the passage. So no, that's not a conversation I'm prepared to have.

 

[Peter J Barban]

No, but if you want to put yourself forward as a shining example of this working well in practice, then you need to be prepared to front up with the evidence. If you can't do that, then it shouldn't come as any surprise that we're not prepared to take your word for it.

(That's not a criticism of you, it's just a statement that such claims require evidence).



To my mind, even to put it in these terms is to misinterpret the passage. So no, that's not a conversation I'm prepared to have.

I put myself as an example (perhaps not so shining) as a husband who loves (sacrifices for) his wife as Christ loves the church. I am prepared to discuss that.

I am not claiming that my wife is or is not an example of a wife who submits to her husband as the Church submits to Christ. My wife would not be comfortable with me discussing that.

I am not surprised that you are not prepared to discuss Ephesians 5.

I shall endeavor to carry on without your input.

 

[Peter J Barban]

Marriage, of course, it not the end-game of Christian relationships. No, the endgame is growing into the fullness of Christ, so that God is glorified.

Thus, the goals of marriage are always subordinate to bringing glory to Christ and God.

According to Ephesians 5, the way marriage brings glory to Christ is when the husband sacrifices for his wife and the wife submits to her husband. This marriage relationship is parallel to the relationship between Christ and the Church.

So the husband should think, "How can I sacrifice for my wife the way Christ gave himself up for the church". And the wife should think, "How can I submit to my husband the way the Church submits to Christ?"

On human ability alone, these are both impossible tasks, so the world rightly rejects them. However, Christians are called to live by faith and so we should call out to God for the guidance and power to follow God's revealed word.

 

[Paidiske]

I am not surprised that you are not prepared to discuss Ephesians 5.

You have misunderstood me. I am not prepared to discuss it when the parameters of the discussion already distort the meaning of the passage.

Making it about wives submitting to their husbands, in a way which denies the mutuality called for in the passage, is exactly that sort of distortion.

 

[Peter J Barban]

You have misunderstood me. I am not prepared to discuss it when the parameters of the discussion already distort the meaning of the passage.

Making it about wives submitting to their husbands, in a way which denies the mutuality called for in the passage, is exactly that sort of distortion.

You have made this point clear in several previous posts.

As I understand your position, the traditional view of wifely submission is completely messed up and the correct view can only be reconstructed from Genesis forward-- eventually leading the something like marriage equality. However, you have neither the time nor the inclination to discuss it with a man like me.

 

[bekkilyn]

"For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become slaves to one another. For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:13-14)

I don't recall husbands being excluded from this responsibility of mutual slavery (or submission), but as I've said before, men in their arrogance hate submitting to anything or anyone, wives in particular it seems, but it's a lesson they must learn if they will ever know anything about or even experience what it means to love one's neighbor and God.

 

[Archivist]

"For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become slaves to one another. For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:13-14)

I don't recall husbands being excluded from this responsibility of mutual slavery (or submission), but as I've said before, men in their arrogance hate submitting to anything or anyone, wives in particular it seems, but it's a lesson they must learn if they will ever know anything about or even experience what it means to love one's neighbor and God.

An excellent post bekkilyn. I have said before in this thread that my girlfriend and I see each other as equals in our relationship. We each do bring certain strengths to the relationship, but our submission to each other is mutual. In Christ there is neither male nor female.

 

[bèlla]

1. As a far as I can see, you are disregarding the key text in Ephesians 5, which include

I haven't disregarded the text. But my companion doesn't lord over me or believe I'm the lone one required to yield. That isn't our mindset or ethos. Nor would we substantiate patriarchy and call it biblical.

I'm sure that people do pervert it, so let's "unpervert" it. Let's talk about how a modern wife can submit to her husband as the church submits to Christ, in accordance with this passage of God's word.

What is a modern wife? I know women who work outside the home, many who work from home, and a few stay-at-home wives.

You are way too sensitive, to the point of imagining faults that don't exist when reading my posts. "Sweeping statements" don't begin with the caveat "It is possible". I welcome your observations on real Biblical marriages that are in accordance with the above passage of God's word.

A charge of sensitivity followed by a knee-jerk response negates the former. Let's move past it.

If Paul can write Ephesians while unmarried and Christ can be the Lord while unmarried, then certainly I don't need to expose my wife to your scrutiny in order to proclaim the truth of the passage and biblical marriage in general.

You aren't Paul and nor am I. You are welcome to share your opinion. But it's unrealistic to expect you'll influence women when we aren't privy to her side of things. You're providing one-sided feedback. We won't accept your words as gospel.

If you think that the openness and transparency of yourself and others make you a superior messenger, I'm OK with that. I concede that you are a better messenger than I. The same for Jimmy and Karen.

When you're addressing relationships its helpful to hear from the other. The discussion is richer and oftentimes the audience is blessed by revelations from each.

~Bella

 

[Paidiske]

You have made this point clear in several previous posts.

As I understand your position, the traditional view of wifely submission is completely messed up and the correct view can only be reconstructed from Genesis forward-- eventually leading the something like marriage equality. However, you have neither the time nor the inclination to discuss it with a man like me.

It's nothing to do with a "man like you," and everything to do with the terms of the discussion. If it's going to be (yet another) discussion where men try to tell women how terrible we are, then I'm sure you can see why I'm not interested.

If, on the other hand, it's a discussion which proclaims the life-giving, liberating good news of the gospel - for women as well as men - then I'm interested.

 

[Peter J Barban]

It's nothing to do with a "man like you," and everything to do with the terms of the discussion. If it's going to be (yet another) discussion where men try to tell women how terrible we are, then I'm sure you can see why I'm not interested.

If, on the other hand, it's a discussion which proclaims the life-giving, liberating good news of the gospel - for women as well as men - then I'm interested.

I didn't create this topic, which is:
Women Submitting To Their Husbands: What Christians Get Wrong

I joined it to participate in discussing what the Bible really says on this issue.

It's natural that we would discuss the most specific Bible verses on wifely submission to make sure we are not getting it wrong.

Feel free to link to a commentary on these verses if you know of any that you trust.

It's disappointing that even a pastor, won't discuss these verses and how to apply them, despite the many posts on this thread.

 

[Peter J Barban]

I haven't disregarded the text. But my companion doesn't lord over me or believe I'm the lone one required to yield. That isn't our mindset or ethos. Nor would we substantiate patriarchy and call it biblical.



What is a modern wife? I know women who work outside the home, many who work from home, and a few stay-at-home wives.



A charge of sensitivity followed by a knee-jerk response negates the former. Let's move past it.



You aren't Paul and nor am I. You are welcome to share your opinion. But it's unrealistic to expect you'll influence women when we aren't privy to her side of things. You're providing one-sided feedback. We won't accept your words as gospel.



When you're addressing relationships its helpful to hear from the other. The discussion is richer and oftentimes the audience is blessed by revelations from each.

~Bella

So, are you ready to discuss the Ephesians 5 passage directly related to your forum post? Can marriage equality survive such an encounter?

I surmise that marriage equality proponents can only dismiss this passage, based on the posts of this thread.

 

[Peter J Barban]

This is from The Enduring Word commentary series on Galatians 5:22. I trust this series overall and think this passage is excellent.

Ephesians Chapter 5

1. (22) Walking in the light means wives submit to their husbands.
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

a. Wives: Paul addressed wives and their responsibility in the Christian marriage first. This isn’t because they are the bigger problem or because they need special attention. The reason is that the apostle was particularly concerned about this question of submission. That was the principle that he introduced in Ephesians 5:21. This aspect of submission has a particular application to wives in a Christian marriage.

i. The same logic continues on into Ephesians 6. Children are addressed before parents because Paul was primarily concerned about submission. Slaves are addressed before their masters because the apostle was primarily concerned about submission.

ii. There is no question that the apostle is continuing the thought from Ephesians 5:21, submitting to one another in the fear of God. In many of the best ancient Greek manuscripts, Ephesians 5:22 doesn’t even have the word submit. It simply reads wives, to your own husbands. The topic is submission and Paul focused on a particularly important realm of submission – the Christian marriage, from the wife unto the husband.

iii. It is as if Paul said this: “I commanded you to submit to one another in a very general way. Now, if you do it in a general way, how much more so should wives do it to their own husbands in this special relationship of marriage.”

b. Wives, submit: To submit means that you recognize someone has legitimate authority over you. It means you recognize that there is an order of authority, and that you are part of a unit, a team. You as an individual are not more important that the working of the unit or the team.

i. When we submit to God, we recognize God’s authority and act accordingly. When we submit to the police, we recognize the authority of the police and act accordingly. When we submit to our employer, we recognize the authority of our employer and act accordingly.

ii. Submission does not mean inferiority. As well, submission does not mean silence. Submission means “sub-mission.” There is a mission for the Christian marriage, and that mission is obeying and glorifying God. The wife says, “I’m going to put myself under that mission. That mission is more important than my individual desires. I’m not putting myself below my husband, I’m putting myself below the mission God has for our marriage, for my life.”

c. To your own husbands: This defines the sphere of a wife’s submission. The Bible never commands a general submission of women unto men in society. This order is commanded only in the spheres of the home and in the church. God has not commanded in His word that men have exclusive authority in the areas of politics, business, education, and so on.

d. As to the Lord: This is a crucial phrase. It colors everything else we understand about this passage. There have been two main wrong interpretations of this phrase, each favoring a certain position.

i. The wrong interpretation that the interpretation that favors the husband says that as to the Lord means that a wife should submit to her husband as if he were God himself. The idea is “you submit to God in absolutely everything without question, so you must submit to your husband in the same absolute way.” This interpretation believes thatthe words “as to the Lord”defines the extent of submission.

ii. This is wrong. It is true that the wife owes the husband a great deal of respect. Peter sets this across when he praises Sarah, the wife of Abraham, as an example of a godly wife, when she called Abraham “Lord.” That doesn’t mean “Lord” in the sense of God, but “Lord” in the sense of “master.” That is a lot of respect. Yet still, it doesn’t go as far as to say, “You submit completely to God, so you must submit to your husband the same way.” Simply put, in no place does the Scripture say that a person should submit to another in that way. There are limits to the submission your employer can expect of you. There are limits to the submission the government can expect of you. There are limits to the submission parents can expect of children. In no place does the Scripture teach an unqualified, without exception, submission – except to God and God alone. To violate this is to commit the sin of idolatry.

iii. The wrong interpretation that favors the wife says that as to the Lord means “I’ll submit to him as long as he does what the Lord wants.” Then the wife often thinks it is her job to decide what the Lord wants. This interpretation thinks that as to the Lord defines the limit of submission.

iv. This is wrong. It is true that there are limits to a wife’s submission; but when the wife approaches as to the Lord in this way, it degenerates into a case of “I’ll submit to my husband when I agree with him. I’ll submit to him when he makes the right decisions and carries them out the right way. When he makes a wrong decision, he isn’t in the Lord, so I shouldn’t submit to him then.” That is not submission at all. Except for those who are plainly cantankerous and argumentative, everyone submits to others when they are in agreement. It is only when there is a disagreement that submission is tested.

e. As to the Lord does not define the extent of a wife’s submission or the limit of a wife’s submission. It defines the motive of a wife’s submission.

i. “It means: ‘Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands because it is a part of your duty to the Lord, because it is an expression of your submission to the Lord.’ Or, ‘Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands; do it in this way, do it as a part of your submission to the Lord.’ In other words, you are not doing it only for the husband, you are doing it primarily for the Lord Himself… You are doing it for Christ’s sake, you are doing it because you know that He exhorts you to do it, because it is well-pleasing in His sight that you should be doing it. It is part of your Christian behaviour, it is a part of your discipleship.” (Lloyd-Jones)

ii. “For the Lord’s sake who commanded it, so that ye cannot be subject to him without being subject to them.” (Clarke)

iii. As to the Lord means…

· A wife’s submission to her husband is part of her Christian life and obedience.

· When a wife doesn’t obey this word to submit to your own husband, as to the Lord, she isn’t only falling short as a wife. She is falling short as a follower of Jesus Christ.

· This is completely out of the realm of the wife’s nature or personality.

· This has nothing to do with a husband’s intelligence, giftedness, or capability. It has to do with honoring the Lord Jesus Christ.

· This has nothing to do with whether or not the husband is right on a particular issue. It has to do with Jesus being right.

· This means that a woman should take great care in how she chooses her husband. Instead of looking for an attractive man, instead of looking for a wealthy man, instead of looking for a romantic man, a woman should first look for a man she can respect. G. Campbell Morgan recalls the story of the older Christian woman who had never married, and she explained, “I never met a man who could master me.” She had the right idea.

· If you want to please Jesus, if you want to honor Him, then submit to your own husband as to the Lord.

iv. “There can be no more compelling motive for any action than this; and every Christian wife who is concerned above everything else to please the Lord Jesus Christ, will find no difficulty in this paragraph; indeed it will be her greatest delight to do what the Apostle tells us here.” (Lloyd-Jones)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

A study published in the Lancet in 2015 analysed data from 66 surveys across 44 countries, covering the experiences of almost half a million women.

It found that the greatest predictor of partner violence was "environments that support male control", especially "norms related to male authority over female behaviour".




The past two decades of research has also shown women in religious communities are less likely to leave violent marriages, more likely to believe that the abuser will change, less inclined to access community resources and more likely to believe it is their fault; that they have failed as wives as they were not able to stop the abuse.

A culture of victim blaming or shaming can cause women to exit the church entirely. The most common story in the dozens heard by ABC News is that when marriages break, the men stay and the women leave.

The CEO of Safe Steps Family Violence Centre, Annette Gillespie, says that in 20 years of working with victims of domestic violence, she found it was "extremely common" that women will be "encouraged by the church to stay in an abusive relationship".

"I know that for many women the experience of violence was worsened by the lack of support people turned to in the church," she said.