Civil Rights Law Protects L.G.B.T. Workers, Supreme Court Rules

[Leet]

I didn't say Catholic schools. I said Christian schools. That's not to say a fair majority of Catholics are not saved but there is still a distinction.

 

[PloverWing]

Before things get too explosive, let me offer a clarification.

Catholics are Christians. Let's agree on that point right up front.

Many schools that use the title "Christian school" are Protestant conservative Evangelical schools. The school that I attended for K-12 was one of these; my college was another. Their philosophy of religious education goes beyond just offering Bible or religion as a school subject. The Christian faith (usually in accordance with the school's particular statement of faith) is integrated throughout the curriculum. In social studies class, when place names are mentioned, you might hear that this is the place Paul visited on his first missionary journey, or that is the region where the Hebrew people were enslaved. In English class, if a book or poem has a religious or philosophical theme, you might hear it analyzed from a Christian point of view. And so on. If that's what a teacher is being called on to do, it's probably a reasonable job requirement to expect the teachers to share the school's statement of beliefs.

I haven't been directly involved with Catholic schools, so I know less about them. From what I've heard in the other posts in this thread, it sounds like many Catholic schools don't have this same goal of integrating the Christian faith throughout the curriculum; religion is a separate subject from history, science, and so on. This is a reasonable view of education, as it makes the school accessible to a broader range of students, but it's a different philosophy from what I've seen in the conservative Evangelical schools.

 

[Arcangl86]

Before things get too explosive, let me offer a clarification.

Catholics are Christians. Let's agree on that point right up front.

Many schools that use the title "Christian school" are Protestant conservative Evangelical schools. The school that I attended for K-12 was one of these; my college was another. Their philosophy of religious education goes beyond just offering Bible or religion as a school subject. The Christian faith (usually in accordance with the school's particular statement of faith) is integrated throughout the curriculum. In social studies class, when place names are mentioned, you might hear that this is the place Paul visited on his first missionary journey, or that is the region where the Hebrew people were enslaved. In English class, if a book or poem has a religious or philosophical theme, you might hear it analyzed from a Christian point of view. And so on. If that's what a teacher is being called on to do, it's probably a reasonable job requirement to expect the teachers to share the school's statement of beliefs.

I haven't been directly involved with Catholic schools, so I know less about them. From what I've heard in the other posts in this thread, it sounds like many Catholic schools don't have this same goal of integrating the Christian faith throughout the curriculum; religion is a separate subject from history, science, and so on. This is a reasonable view of education, as it makes the school accessible to a broader range of students, but it's a different philosophy from what I've seen in the conservative Evangelical schools.

This actually helps a lot. Catholic schools tend to be like public schools except they have religion classes and often have nuns on staff.

 

[stevil]

Before things get too explosive, let me offer a clarification.

Catholics are Christians. Let's agree on that point right up front.

Absolutely

Many schools that use the title "Christian school" are Protestant conservative Evangelical schools. The school that I attended for K-12 was one of these; my college was another. Their philosophy of religious education goes beyond just offering Bible or religion as a school subject. The Christian faith (usually in accordance with the school's particular statement of faith) is integrated throughout the curriculum. In social studies class, when place names are mentioned, you might hear that this is the place Paul visited on his first missionary journey, or that is the region where the Hebrew people were enslaved. In English class, if a book or poem has a religious or philosophical theme, you might hear it analyzed from a Christian point of view. And so on. If that's what a teacher is being called on to do, it's probably a reasonable job requirement to expect the teachers to share the school's statement of beliefs.

I haven't been directly involved with Catholic schools, so I know less about them. From what I've heard in the other posts in this thread, it sounds like many Catholic schools don't have this same goal of integrating the Christian faith throughout the curriculum; religion is a separate subject from history, science, and so on. This is a reasonable view of education, as it makes the school accessible to a broader range of students, but it's a different philosophy from what I've seen in the conservative Evangelical schools.

Very interesting. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[trunks2k]

I don't mean to shock you, but teachers at Catholic schools aren't required to be Catholic

Even Catholic schools put some moral limitations on their teachers. I know the Catholic school I went to would not employ teachers that got divorced or even married someone who was divorced. A popular teacher in the school was fired because he married a woman who's previous marriage ended in divorce instead of annulment.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Even Catholic schools put some moral limitations on their teachers.

The contract I signed had a 'moral turpitude' clause.

The school I taught at fired a teacher for having a same-sex civil partnership [before the days when legal marriage was available] and another teacher for performing a celebratory ceremony for it.

 

[stevil]

Even Catholic schools put some moral limitations on their teachers. I know the Catholic school I went to would not employ teachers that got divorced or even married someone who was divorced. A popular teacher in the school was fired because he married a woman who's previous marriage ended in divorce instead of annulment.

That's pretty disgusting stuff.

People need incomes, they need a means to live. Fo the Catholic church do digging into her personal life, investigate her new husband and then decide to fire her, denying her an income.

Disgusting!

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Hopefully this will be a learning experience to some folks on both sides with regards to over-politicizing SCOTUS nominees.

Gorsuch, who many conservatives are using harsh words like "traitor" to describe after this, was the guy the Democrats tried to block, which led to Mitch extending the nuclear option to Supreme Court Nominees (that happening wasn't a win for anyone in the long term).

Gorsuch ended up being a big ally on this case...

Maybe moving forward, people will be more inclined to actually research the nominee, rather than just digging their heels in on whether they "love them" or "hate them", seemingly based on nothing more than how much like the like or dislike the person who nominated him.

I think this case also highlights a bit of hypocrisy with regards to people who claim they want "originalist interpretations" of laws when it suits an agenda, but are fine with non-originalism when it favors their agenda.

 

[Arcangl86]

Hopefully this will be a learning experience to some folks on both sides with regards to over-politicizing SCOTUS nominees.

Gorsuch, who many conservatives are using harsh words like "traitor" to describe after this, was the guy the Democrats tried to block, which led to Mitch extending the nuclear option to Supreme Court Nominees (that happening wasn't a win for anyone in the long term).

Gorsuch ended up being a big ally on this case...

Maybe moving forward, people will be more inclined to actually research the nominee, rather than just digging their heels in on whether they "love them" or "hate them", seemingly based on nothing more than how much like the like or dislike the person who nominated him.

I think this case also highlights a bit of hypocrisy with regards to people who claim they want "originalist interpretations" of laws when it suits an agenda, but are fine with non-originalism when it favors their agenda.

Though with Gorsuch I think there would have been some concern but he would have been acceptable if it wasn't for the nature of his nomination. I think people were still too angry over the treatment Judge Garland got to judge Justice Gorsuch fairly.

 

[trunks2k]

investigate her new husband and then decide to fire her, denying her an income.

His new wife.

 

[hedrick]

The big deal for evangelicals currently seems to be more abortion and "religious freedom" than firing gays. Trump is still going to look like a win for a lot of people if the Court allows states to restrict abortion out of existence and allow Trump to be above the Law.

 

[stevil]

His new wife.

Yes, sorry. Your example was of a man being fired because his new wife's history didn't live up to the expectations of his employer.

 

[stevil]

The big deal for evangelicals currently seems to be more abortion and "religious freedom" than firing gays. Trump is still going to look like a win for a lot of people if the Court allows states to restrict abortion out of existence. I can see an originalist argument here too, I just think it's likely he'll use it.

Yeah, really the courts shouldn't be a political thing, but in reality they seem to be in USA. Certainly the Republican side have used this as their differentiater and to get voters off their bums and into the booths.

The whole pro-life/pro-guns/pro-discrimination thing is a massive wedge in USA. Neither side is willing to bend and there doesn't seem to be a middle ground.

I don't know how you guys can ever find common ground. Is the division you have sustainable?
Do the States need to separate?

Anyway, it's interesting to watch. (luckily for me, from afar)

 

[Caliban]

^ it's going to depend on the teacher and the school. If an LGBTI teacher is going to teach in a Christian school, they're going to have to mind their Ps and Qs as far as certain subjects go. But this is ?probably? hypothetical anyway considering Christian schools would have Christian and bible believing staff.

I know two non-believers teaching in Christian private schools. They just lied to get the job and are waiting for a better opportunity.

 

[stevil]

I know two non-believers teaching in Christian private schools. They just lied to get the job and are waiting for a better opportunity.

It's difficult to get a decent job.

But it makes it more difficult for some if a private organisation comes along, provides the same service that is currently provided and introduces descriminative hiring practices. This means that for those that are discriminated against, it makes it harder to get a job.

 

[Caliban]

It's difficult to get a decent job.

But it makes it more difficult for some if a private organisation comes along, provides the same service that is currently provided and introduces descriminative hiring practices. This means that for those that are discriminated against, it makes it harder to get a job.

I agree. I did not know that the recent Bostock v. Clayton County, decision exempted religious schools until reading this thread. There is more work ahead.

 

[hedrick]

Yeah, really the courts shouldn't be a political thing, but in reality they seem to be in USA. Certainly the Republican side have used this as their differentiater and to get voters off their bums and into the booths.

The whole pro-life/pro-guns/pro-discrimination thing is a massive wedge in USA. Neither side is willing to bend and there doesn't seem to be a middle ground.

I don't know how you guys can ever find common ground. Is the division you have sustainable?
Do the States need to separate?

Anyway, it's interesting to watch. (luckily for me, from afar)

Attitudes on gays have changed rapidly. There’s pretty much common ground, at least for things like not firing and other things outside the church. Even in CF responses were mostly positive until a couple of people who feel strongly were involved.

Even abortion, 2/3 want it to be legal. Don’t confuse hysterical disagreement here with views in the broader population.

The issue is really in a few states with a disproportionate conservative Protestant political influence. This will be fixed over time.

I’m more concerned over presidential accountability. This shouldn’t be partisan. Everything says once Trump is out we will have Democratic presidents for a while. I can’t imagine why conservatives would want to remove accountability. I’m likely to vote for Democrats, but I would certainly want Congress to be able to investigate them. Short term thinking, I guess. Democrats have made proposals in Congress for some things, but if the Supreme Court accepts extreme versions of separation of powers, Congress can’t fix it.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I agree. I did not know that the recent Bostock v. Clayton County, decision exempted religious schools until reading this thread. There is more work ahead.

I don't believe it does exempt them. However, the matter just has not been tested.

But how these doctrines protecting religious liberty inter- act with Title VII are questions for future cases too. Harris Funeral Homes did unsuccessfully pursue a RFRA-based defense in the proceedings below. In its certiorari petition, however, the company declined to seek review of that ad- verse decision, and no other religious liberty claim is now before us. So while other employers in other cases may raise free exercise arguments that merit careful considera- tion, none of the employers before us today represent in this Court that compliance with Title VII will infringe their own religious liberties in any way.

ETA: Oops my bad. Title VII itself has some exemptions, but it may still be in a bit of limbo.

Provisions of Title VII provide exemptions for certain religious organizations and schools “with respect to the employment of individuals of a partic- ular religion to perform work connected with the carrying on” of the “activities” of the organization or school, 42 U. S. C. §2000e–1(a); see also §2000e–2(e)(2), but the scope of these provisions is disputed

This probably ties into cases where teachers are automatically alleged to be ministers.

 

[hedrick]

The question is whether the ministerial exception applies to teachers in religious schools. I think the Supreme Court has been applying that exception fairly broadly. I think they'll find that teachers in Catholic schools can reasonably be expected to follow Catholic morals.

 

[Caliban]

The question is whether the ministerial exception applies to teachers in religious schools. I think the Supreme Court has been applying that exception fairly broadly. I think they'll find that teachers in Catholic schools can reasonably be expected to follow Catholic morals.

I think you are right--when challenged, they will likely permit a religious exemption.