LDS Heavenly Father

[Hammster]

For what? Did I not agree with you, and so I must repent?

You’re not saved, so you must repent and believe the gospel.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

So are you saying that Jesus Christ is a spirit:

(New Testament | Luke 24:38 - 43)

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Before he incarnated on earth, yes he was fully spirit. On earth he was fully human and fully Divine(spirit). Others will have to explain how he is now.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Note the KJV rendering, as other renderings - like the RSV - say "God is spirit", taking what in English is a far more metaphorical approach to matters.

the context of the verse reads literally,

John 4 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised (NRSVA)
Jesus and the Woman of Samaria
4 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard, ‘Jesus is making and baptizing more disciples than John’— 2 although it was not Jesus himself but his disciples who baptized— 3 he left Judea and started back to Galilee. 4 But he had to go through Samaria. 5 So he came to a Samaritan city called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6 Jacob’s well was there, and Jesus, tired out by his journey, was sitting by the well. It was about noon.

7 A Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, ‘Give me a drink’. 8 (His disciples had gone to the city to buy food.) 9 The Samaritan woman said to him, ‘How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?’ (Jews do not share things in common with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered her, ‘If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, “Give me a drink”, you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.’ 11 The woman said to him, ‘Sir, you have no bucket, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 12 Are you greater than our ancestor Jacob, who gave us the well, and with his sons and his flocks drank from it?’ 13 Jesus said to her, ‘Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, 14 but those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give will become in them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.’ 15 The woman said to him, ‘Sir, give me this water, so that I may never be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water.’

16 Jesus said to her, ‘Go, call your husband, and come back.’ 17 The woman answered him, ‘I have no husband.’ Jesus said to her, ‘You are right in saying, “I have no husband”; 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true!’ 19 The woman said to him, ‘Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshipped on this mountain, but you say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.’ 21 Jesus said to her, ‘Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.’ 25 The woman said to him, ‘I know that Messiah is coming’ (who is called Christ). ‘When he comes, he will proclaim all things to us.’ 26 Jesus said to her, ‘I am he, the one who is speaking to you.’

27 Just then his disciples came. They were astonished that he was speaking with a woman, but no one said, ‘What do you want?’ or, ‘Why are you speaking with her?’ 28 Then the woman left her water-jar and went back to the city. She said to the people, 29 ‘Come and see a man who told me everything I have ever done! He cannot be the Messiah, can he?’ 30 They left the city and were on their way to him.

31 Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, ‘Rabbi, eat something.’ 32 But he said to them, ‘I have food to eat that you do not know about.’ 33 So the disciples said to one another, ‘Surely no one has brought him something to eat?’ 34 Jesus said to them, ‘My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to complete his work. 35 Do you not say, “Four months more, then comes the harvest”? But I tell you, look around you, and see how the fields are ripe for harvesting. 36 The reaper is already receiving wages and is gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. 37 For here the saying holds true, “One sows and another reaps.” 38 I sent you to reap that for which you did not labour. Others have laboured, and you have entered into their labour.’

39 Many Samaritans from that city believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, ‘He told me everything I have ever done.’ 40 So when the Samaritans came to him, they asked him to stay with them; and he stayed there for two days. 41 And many more believed because of his word. 42 They said to the woman, ‘It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is truly the Saviour of the world.’

Jesus Returns to Galilee
43 When the two days were over, he went from that place to Galilee 44 (for Jesus himself had testified that a prophet has no honour in the prophet’s own country). 45 When he came to Galilee, the Galileans welcomed him, since they had seen all that he had done in Jerusalem at the festival; for they too had gone to the festival.

Jesus Heals an Official’s Son
46 Then he came again to Cana in Galilee where he had changed the water into wine. Now there was a royal official whose son lay ill in Capernaum. 47 When he heard that Jesus had come from Judea to Galilee, he went and begged him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 Then Jesus said to him, ‘Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.’ 49 The official said to him, ‘Sir, come down before my little boy dies.’ 50 Jesus said to him, ‘Go; your son will live.’ The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and started on his way. 51 As he was going down, his slaves met him and told him that his child was alive. 52 So he asked them the hour when he began to recover, and they said to him, ‘Yesterday at one in the afternoon the fever left him.’ 53 The father realized that this was the hour when Jesus had said to him, ‘Your son will live.’ So he himself believed, along with his whole household. 54 Now this was the second sign that Jesus did after coming from Judea to Galilee.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

JST

John 4:24 For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth.

wow, you just proved that whoever JST is a false teacher.

Why, because there is no greek, latin, nor hebrew text that has that wording.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

We do not have the original, only copies.

And, where are the gold plates?

Textual Criticism and quotes from Church Fathers has proven that the Bible we have today is as close as one can get. In fact, when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered we have another copy of Isaiah which is about a thousand years older than what we had back then. I am happy to say, the words were word for word the same.

 

[Peter1000]

And, where are the gold plates?

Textual Criticism and quotes from Church Fathers has proven that the Bible we have today is as close as one can get. In fact, when the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered we have another copy of Isaiah which is about a thousand years older than what we had back then. I am happy to say, the words were word for word the same.

Please, you must think the entire world is stupid to think that the Isaiah Scroll, and the Masoretic
Text is certainly not a word for word perfect translation. Not Isaiah or any other fragment is word for word perfect. So rewrite that statement.

The Great Isaiah Scroll and the Masoretic Text | AHRC

 

[He is the way]

Before he incarnated on earth, yes he was fully spirit. On earth he was fully human and fully Divine(spirit). Others will have to explain how he is now.

He already said that He has a resurrected body of flesh and bones which a spirit does not have.

 

[He is the way]

wow, you just proved that whoever JST is a false teacher.

Why, because there is no greek, latin, nor hebrew text that has that wording.

We don't have all of the texts including the original text but this we do know, Jesus Christ has a body of flesh and bones.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I can show you where the Bible was incorrect before the JST corrected it:

(Old Testament | Numbers 23:19)

19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

KJV
(Old Testament | Jonah 3:9 - 10)

9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 ¶ And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.


JST:
(Old Testament:Jonah 3:9 - 10)

9 Who can tell if we will repent, and turn unto God, but he will turn away from us his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 ¶ And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and repented; and God turned away the evil that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did it not.

God does NOT repent.

Not what I asked. Show me where the original Hebrew, Greek, and/or Aramaic are incorrect. All you've shown is that JS didn't like what his Bible said so he changed it to fit his theology.

 

[He is the way]

Not what I asked. Show me where the original Hebrew, Greek, and/or Aramaic are incorrect. All you've shown is that JS didn't like what his Bible said so he changed it to fit his theology.

No one has the original Hebrew, Greek, and/or Aramaic texts of the Bible.

 

[Hammster]

No one has the original Hebrew, Greek, and/or Aramaic texts of the Bible.

We can be sure what they say, though.

 

[Ran77]

“God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I love this argument. The people who use it as proof against God having a body ignore, either intentionally or because they don't understand the difference, that the argument relies on changing the dynamics of the verse halfway through.

This argument takes the stand that God is a Spirit is a literal meaning of the word. As in, God is a being of spirit and apparently only spirit. (Which ignores the possibility that God could be both a person of spirit and a physical entity. After all, doesn't Christianity believe that God is all-powerful and nothing is beyond His ability?)

Then the second half of the argument relies on taking a metaphorical interpretation of the verse. Because we are not being asked to turn into beings of spirit only and then worship God. If that were the case none of us could worship God. We are beings of both spirit and flesh. And in this instance, we are being asked to call on our spiritual nature to worship.

Literal compared to metaphorical = flawed argument.
We can be physical beings asked to worship in a spiritual nature but God can only be a being of spirit = flawed argument.

 

[Hammster]

I love this argument. The people who use it as proof against God having a body ignore, either intentionally or because they don't understand the difference, that the argument relies on changing the dynamics of the verse halfway through.

This argument takes the stand that God is a Spirit is a literal meaning of the word. As in, God is a being of spirit and apparently only spirit. (Which ignores the possibility that God could be both a person of spirit and a physical entity. After all, doesn't Christianity believe that God is all-powerful and nothing is beyond His ability?)

Then the second half of the argument relies on taking a metaphorical interpretation of the verse. Because we are not being asked to turn into beings of spirit only and then worship God. If that were the case none of us could worship God. We are beings of both spirit and flesh. And in this instance, we are being asked to call on our spiritual nature to worship.

Literal compared to metaphorical = flawed argument.
We can be physical beings asked to worship in a spiritual nature but God can only be a being of spirit = flawed argument.

Welcome back, first of all.

I’m not seeing why this is an issue. Yes, we are being called to worship in spirit. How does that not make the Father a spirit?

 

[He is the way]

We can be sure what they say, though.

No you can't. Things can change in one copy besides not all of the copies agree.

 

[Hammster]

No you can't. Things can change in one copy besides not all of the copies agree.

You are ignorant of textual criticism. Reading up on it would be beneficial.

 

[He is the way]

You are ignorant of textual criticism. Reading up on it would be beneficial.

I suspect we will just have to agree to disagree about this.

 

[Hammster]

I suspect we will just have to agree to disagree about this.

Lol. Okay. Except there’s nothing to disagree on. It’s like me saying that peanuts aren’t nuts, and you saying that we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[He is the way]

Lol. Okay. Except there’s nothing to disagree on. It’s like me saying that peanuts aren’t nuts, and you saying that we will have to agree to disagree.

Since you don't have the original text and only copies you can not prove that the copies are the same. They were not made on copy machines. They were rewritten and there are differences between the copies.

"
Today textual critics are divided on which of the thousands of manuscripts and papyri coming from these areas are most accurate. For most, the arguments boil down to two areas—the Alexandrian (Egyptian) Greek and the Byzantine Greek texts. When we compare the manuscripts from each we find a number of variants between these families. So there was some failure to copy one or the other accurately. The question is, which is more accurate and which is less accurate?

Most scholars today think that the texts from Alexandria, because they are older, are more accurate or closer to the originals. The oldest Alexandrian manuscripts date from around the fourth century after Christ while the oldest Byzantine manuscripts come from around the seventh century."

From: Why Are There Differences in Ancient New Testament Manuscripts?

Even among the many translations there are many differences. Some of them have very different meanings. I know this because I have compared them.

 

[Hammster]

Since you don't have the original text and only copies you can not prove that the copies are the same. They were not made on copy machines. They were rewritten and there are differences between the copies.

"
Today textual critics are divided on which of the thousands of manuscripts and papyri coming from these areas are most accurate. For most, the arguments boil down to two areas—the Alexandrian (Egyptian) Greek and the Byzantine Greek texts. When we compare the manuscripts from each we find a number of variants between these families. So there was some failure to copy one or the other accurately. The question is, which is more accurate and which is less accurate?

Most scholars today think that the texts from Alexandria, because they are older, are more accurate or closer to the originals. The oldest Alexandrian manuscripts date from around the fourth century after Christ while the oldest Byzantine manuscripts come from around the seventh century."

From: Why Are There Differences in Ancient New Testament Manuscripts?

Even among the many translations there are many differences. Some of them have very different meanings. I know this because I have compared them.

What are those variants? Do we get two completely different bibles?

 

[drstevej]

Mormon exegesis