Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[Major1]

Evidently he's talking about the Satan nature of Lucifer being destroyed that he may be saved. A similar idea is found in many Scriptures such as:

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

and those listed here:

“Old Man” and “New Man” in Paul | Bible.org

As for Satan being saved, see my previous post in this thread.

2 Corth. 5:17 as well AS "ALL" other Scriptures on this subject say that REPENTANCE is what makes a man born again or redeemed.

It seems to me that you are saying exactly what Mr. MacDonald preaches which is SATAN WILL BE SAVED IN THE END.

But again the Bible does not say that anywhere in in it. Rev. 20:10...…..
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

But YOU being an educated man in Philosophy and logic can probably make that Scripture say what you want it to say.

I being just an old country boy read what it says and believes what it says.

 

[Major1]

This has nothing to do with philosophy & is all about the illogic of your comment:



Universalists believe both "only those who accept Christ will be saved" and "EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end". There is nothing contradictory or illogical about that.

I will be glad to give you an example of what Illogical and Contradictory are when YOU actually said...…...
""only those who accept Christ will be saved" and "EVERY SINGLE PERSON will be saved in the end".

Those two phrases are NOT contradictory and illogical????

Who are you trying to kid my friend!!!

No wonder you have so much trouble with the word "ALL".

 

[Major1]

What has Hebrew to do with my post about Rev.20:10 which is from the Greek NT?

BTW your pope of all popes EOB Bible translates Rev.20:10 using the English word "ages" not "for ever and ever" self contradictory non literal nonsense that changes God's Words & deceives readers.

So who is wrong? Bullinger or your pope of all Bible versions?


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"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" (Jer.8:8)

LYING SCRIBES...AIONION:

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?


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As to Bullinger's comments, i've addressed them before as follows:

Bullinger is certainly entitled to his wrong opinion. However, since Scripture always trumps opinions & bulloni, in this case it also trumps the bulloni of Bullinger.

As for Bullinger's biased opinion, he gives no evidence for his viewpoint of "the ages of the ages"meaning "to the remotest age". Why did he not instead determine it means to the remotest "ages" (plural) since the word is in the plural? Why not "to the most excellent age" or ages, as he states re the "song of songs"? Or "to the greatest ages" as he states regarding "vanity of vanities"? Why blindly accept Bullinger's bald unsupported opinion? Is he a pope? Did he know Greek better than the early church universalists, such as the church father Origen, who spoke of an end of all ages, an end of age of the ages & an end of ages of the ages? If these periods of finite time have an end, then they are not, as Bullinger claims, for ever and ever.

Furthermore, he gives no reason for how he magicly leaps from "to the remotest age" to "for ever and ever". If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever. If torment is "into" (EIS) "the remotest age", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of that age, even if the age is endless. If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time. From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.

5 Scriptural evidences that ages of ages end:

(1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

(2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

continued at:

12 points re forever and ever being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

You as a Universalists have raised the objection to understanding aionios and aion properly rendered to convey the meaning of the words in English. The first of these is that only the scholarly can understand it. This is fallacious thinking. There is no need to be a scholar to understand the Hebrew concept of time, but having no knowledge precludes any information about special revelation.

It is written in the Book of Hosea 4:6...…..
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge...".

As a Christian in the pursuit of maturity, our profession is to gain more knowledge of the Lord and to freely share that knowledge with others. Secondly, if you need to be a scholar to properly understand this, then you are not placing your trust in God, but in people who are most agreeable to your theology.
The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

 

[ClementofA]

2 Corth. 5:17 as well AS "ALL" other Scriptures on this subject say that REPENTANCE is what makes a man born again or redeemed.

It seems to me that you are saying exactly what Mr. MacDonald preaches which is SATAN WILL BE SAVED IN THE END.

But again the Bible does not say that anywhere in in it. Rev. 20:10...…..
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

But YOU being an educated man in Philosophy and logic can probably make that Scripture say what you want it to say.

I being just an old country boy read what it says and believes what it says.

More accurate, literal & honest translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

Aeon - Wikipedia

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

 

[Der Alte]

***

What has Hebrew to do with my post about Rev.20:10 which is from the Greek NT?
BTW your pope of all popes EOB Bible translates Rev.20:10 using the English word "ages" not "for ever and ever" self contradictory non literal nonsense that changes God's Words & deceives readers.

What does Hebrew have to do with with your post re: Rev 20;10? I'm sorry I thought you knew that all of the NT writers, except for maybe Luke, were Jews so their writings are full of Hebraisms.
The EOB and Rev 20:10 recognizes, as I have said repeatedly, "aionios" as with many Greek words are sometimes used hyperbolically.

As for Bullinger's biased opinion, he gives no evidence for his viewpoint of "the ages of the ages"meaning "to the remotest age". Why did he not instead determine it means to the remotest "ages" (plural) since the word is in the plural? Why not "to the most excellent age" or ages, as he states re the "song of songs"? Or "to the greatest ages" as he states regarding "vanity of vanities"? Why blindly accept Bullinger's bald unsupported opinion? Is he a pope? Did he know Greek better than the early church universalists, such as the church father Origen, who spoke of an end of all ages, an end of age of the ages & an end of ages of the ages?

When you provide reasons why everyone you quote, e.g. Ely, Ramelli etc, translates words the way they do then, and only then will you have any justification to demand that of me or anyone else.
As for Origen, the UR pope of all popes, PROVE IT! And I will quote where Origen said "eternal life never perishes, remains. is not taken away, is not consumed." And defines eternal life as the opposite of "corruption" and those who have eternal life will not taste death.
When Origen "spoke of an end of all ages, an end of age of the ages & an end of ages of the ages" which Greek word(s) was Origen talking about?
Perhaps you should refrain from quoting all those biased UR writers.

 

[ClementofA]

The EOB and Rev 20:10 recognizes, as I have said repeatedly, "aionios" as with many Greek words are sometimes used hyperbolically.

There's no "aionios" in Rev.20:10 & the EOB opposes Bullinger:

BTW your pope of all popes EOB Bible translates Rev.20:10 using the English word "ages" not the "for ever and ever" self contradictory non literal nonsense that changes God's Words & deceives readers.

So who is wrong? Bullinger or your pope of all Bible versions?

____________________________________


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"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."


If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[Major1]

More accurate, literal & honest translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented
day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

forever and ever: a poor translation:

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

Aeon - Wikipedia

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

universalists present is that several verses point to there being "ages" for believers yet to come in the after life, citing Ephesians 2:7 for example. The Bible refers to past ages in order to exalt God in His knowledge as the divine Creator in parallel with human ignorance (Isaiah 64:4; Deut. 4:32). The New Testament reveals the hidden wisdom of God, the Gospel, is a mystery that is revealed after long ages (1 Corinthians 2:7; Colossians 1:26; Romoms 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2).

With that in mind, the present era is the end of the ages according to 1 Corinthians 10:11; Hebrews 9:26; and 1 Peter 1:20. In reference to Ephesians 2:7, the church as it lives in this age looks forward to the age of future consummation. Though the saved exist in this age, they are born from above as new creatures at the moment of their salvation. Now is a the dawn of a new age for them while they live in an age that is yet to end. These believers also look forward to the next age in which they will be incorruptible, conformed to the image of Christ (ref. Romans 8:29). Therefore when Ephesians 2:7 speaks of ages to Christians, it speaks righteously because Christians whom are born from above participate in two ages with the blessings of the Lord -the end of this age, and the coming kingdom of God.

Hence, Ephesians 2:7 isn't speaking of multiple ages that take place in the coming kingdom of God in the after life as the universalists must have occur to support their unscriptural position of purgatory.
The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

 

[ClementofA]

universalists present is that several verses point to there being "ages" for believers yet to come in the after life, citing Ephesians 2:7 for example. The Bible refers to past ages in order to exalt God in His knowledge as the divine Creator in parallel with human ignorance (Isaiah 64:4; Deut. 4:32). The New Testament reveals the hidden wisdom of God, the Gospel, is a mystery that is revealed after long ages (1 Corinthians 2:7; Colossians 1:26; Romoms 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2).

With that in mind, the present era is the end of the ages according to 1 Corinthians 10:11; Hebrews 9:26; and 1 Peter 1:20. In reference to Ephesians 2:7, the church as it lives in this age looks forward to the age of future consummation. Though the saved exist in this age, they are born from above as new creatures at the moment of their salvation. Now is a the dawn of a new age for them while they live in an age that is yet to end. These believers also look forward to the next age in which they will be incorruptible, conformed to the image of Christ (ref. Romans 8:29). Therefore when Ephesians 2:7 speaks of ages to Christians, it speaks righteously because Christians whom are born from above participate in two ages with the blessings of the Lord -the end of this age, and the coming kingdom of God.

Hence, Ephesians 2:7 isn't speaking of multiple ages that take place in the coming kingdom of God in the after life as the universalists must have occur to support their unscriptural position of purgatory.
The Hebrew concept of time and "aionios" and "aion"

What a mass of confusion & contradiction. The author speaks of this era as "the end of the ages" & then in the next sentence of looking "forward to the age of future consummation", contradicting himself.

Ephesians 2:7 speaks of ages to come. There will be at least two, the millenium age and the new earth age during which the lake of fire still exists.

Likewise many other passages speak of at least two future ages, such as:

Rev.11:15 And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!'

and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages. (Rev.22:5, YLT)

and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end. (Lk.1:33, DBY)

 

[Der Alte]

...

and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end. (Lk.1:33, DBY)

What a mass of confusion & contradiction.
What you fail to realize is the angel has defined the word "aion" as"there shall be no end."

Luke 1:33
33 And he shall reign [βασιλευσει/basileusei Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [εις τους αιωνας/eis tous aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας/basileias Nn] there shall be no end.​

Once again a grammar lesson. In my wife's native language is a word when written in her language looks like a capital "e" and a capital "h" 태. It is pronounced "ta" as in tack. When one curls the fingers tightly into the palm of their hand that is
태. It is part of the word 태권도/Tae kwon do As I have defined "ta' so too did the angel define "aiona."

 

[ClementofA]

What you fail to realize is the angel has defined the word "aion" as"there shall be no end."

Luke 1:33
33 And he shall reign [βασιλευσει/basileusei Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [εις τους αιωνας/eis tous aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας/basileias Nn] there shall be no end.​

Since Christ's reign ends as per 1 Cor.15:24-28, His reign for the ages (Lk.1:33) will end. So "for the ages" (Lk.1:33) is finite. Compare "ages" in Rev.14:11; 20:10.

1 Cor.15:24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

 

[Major1]

What a mass of confusion & contradiction. The author speaks of this era as "the end of the ages" & then in the next sentence of looking "forward to the age of future consummation", contradicting himself.

Ephesians 2:7 speaks of ages to come. There will be at least two, the millenium age and the new earth age during which the lake of fire still exists.

Likewise many other passages speak of at least two future ages, such as:

Rev.11:15 And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!'

and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages. (Rev.22:5, YLT)

and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end. (Lk.1:33, DBY)

No wonder that your theology is so confusing and contradictory. That always happens when anyone rejects the Word of God and then accepts the false teachings of man. I have NO idea why you are debating the TWO times of ages/dispensations. WHY argue about something that is so clearly given to us in the Scriptures.

I continue to be amazed at how easily you manipulate the Scriptures.

YES, there will be TWO periods of time or as some teach "Dispensations".
The word Dispensation is not a dirty word as some portray it but it simply means....."A time frame".

YES, there will be a 1000 year rule of Christ which is called the "Millennium.

YES, there will be a Lake of Fire which is validated in Revelation 20:10...…..
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The Lake of Fire is a state of complete separation from God, never-ending and eternal and is inescapable.

All those who do not accept the Lord Jesus Christ will be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternal torment ACCORDING to the Word of God.

Revelation 20:15......
"Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Revelation 11:15...…...kjv
"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

forever and ever
εἰς τούς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων [eis tous aiōnas tōn aiōnōn] , into the ages of the ages. His kingdom is without end (Ex. Ex. 15:18; Ps. Ps. 10:16; Ps. 145:13; Isa. Isa. 9:7; Dan. Dan. 2:44; Dan. 4:3; Dan. 6:26; Dan. 7:14, Dan. 7:18, Dan. 7:27; Mic. Mic. 4:7; Luke Luke 1:33; 1Ti. 1Ti. 1:17; 2Pe. 2Pe. 1:11; Rev. Rev. 11:15+).

Revelation 11:15 Commentary - A Testimony of Jesus Christ

As for Revelation 22:5, it is strange that you would use the "DARBY" translation.

KJ21
And there shall be no night there, and they will need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light. And they shall reign for ever and ever.
ASV
And there shall be night no more; and they need no light of lamp, neither light of sun; for the Lord God shall give them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
AMP
And there will no longer be night; they have no need for lamplight or sunlight, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign [as kings] forever and ever.
AMPC
And there shall be no more night; they have no need for lamplight or sunlight, for the Lord God will illuminate them and be their light, and they shall reign [as kings] forever and ever (through the eternities of the eternities).
BRG
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
CSB
Night will be no more; people will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, because the Lord God will give them light, and they will reign forever and ever.
CEB
Night will be no more. They won’t need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will shine on them, and they will rule forever and always.
CJB
Night will no longer exist, so they will need neither the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because Adonai, God, will shine upon them. And they will reign as kings forever and ever.
CEV
Never again will night appear, and no one who lives there will ever need a lamp or the sun. The Lord God will be their light, and they will rule forever.
DLNT
And there will be no more night. And they do not have a need of the light of a lamp and the light of the sun, because the Lord God will give-light upon them. And they will reign forever and ever.
DRA
And night shall be no more: and they shall not need the light of the lamp, nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God shall enlighten them, and they shall reign for ever and ever.
ERV
There will never be night again. People will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun. The Lord God will give them light. And they will rule like kings forever and ever.
EHV
There will no longer be any night or any need for lamplight or sunlight, because the Lord God will shine on them. And they will reign forever and ever.
ESV
And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
ESVUK
And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign for ever and ever.
EXB
There will never be night again. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, because the Lord God will give them light. And they will ·rule as kings [reign] forever and ever.
GNV
And there shall be no night there, and they need no candle, neither light of the Sun: for the Lord God giveth them light, and they shall reign for evermore.
GW
There will be no more night, and they will not need any light from lamps or the sun because the Lord God will shine on them. They will rule as kings forever and ever.
GNT
There shall be no more night, and they will not need lamps or sunlight, because the Lord God will be their light, and they will rule as kings forever and ever.
HCSB
Night will no longer exist, and people will not need lamplight or sunlight, because the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign forever and ever.
ICB
There will never be night again. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun. The Lord God will give them light. And they will rule like kings forever and ever.
ISV
There will be no more night, and they will not need any light from lamps or the sun because the Lord God will shine on them. They will rule forever and ever.
KJV
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
AKJV
And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
LEB
And night will not exist any longer, and they will not have need of the light of a lamp and the light of the sun, because the Lord God will give light to them, and they will reign forever and ever.
TLB
And there will be no night there—no need for lamps or sun—for the Lord God will be their light; and they shall reign forever and ever.
MEV
Night shall be no more. They need no lamp nor the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
MOUNCE
And night will be no more. · They will have no need for the light of a lamp or the light of the sun because the Lord · God will shine on them, and they will reign for all time. ·
NOG
There will be no more night, and they will not need any light from lamps or the sun because the Lord God will shine on them. They will rule as kings forever and ever.
NABRE
Night will be no more, nor will they need light from lamp or sun, for the Lord God shall give them light, and they shall reign forever and ever.
NASB
And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
NCV
There will never be night again. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, because the Lord God will give them light. And they will rule as kings forever and ever.
NET
Night will be no more, and they will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, because the Lord God will shine on them, and they will reign forever and ever.
NIRV
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun. The Lord God will give them light. They will rule for ever and ever.
NIV
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
NIVUK
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.
NKJV
There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.
NLV
There will be no night there. There will be no need for a light or for the sun. Because the Lord God will be their light. They will be leaders forever.
NLT
And there will be no night there—no need for lamps or sun—for the Lord God will shine on them. And they will reign forever and ever.
NMB
And there will be no night there, and they need no lamp, nor the light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they will reign forevermore.
NRSV
And there will be no more night; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
NRSVA
And there will be no more night; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign for ever and ever.
NRSVACE
And there will be no more night; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign for ever and ever.
NRSVCE
And there will be no more night; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
NTE
There will be no more night, and they will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, because the Lord God will shine on them; and they will reign for ever and ever.
TPT
Night will be no more. They will never need the light of the sun or a lamp, because the Lord God will shine on them. And they will reign as kings forever and ever!
RGT
And there shall be no night there. And they need no lamp, nor light of the sun. For the Lord God gives them Light. And they shall reign forevermore.
RSV
And night shall be no more; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they shall reign for ever and ever.
RSVCE
And night shall be no more; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they shall reign for ever and ever.

With all the preponderance of translations, why do you only use the Darby and Msg & YLT to substantiate your belief?????

 

[Major1]

Since Christ's reign ends as per 1 Cor.15:24-28, His reign for the ages (Lk.1:33) will end. So "for the ages" (Lk.1:33) is finite. Compare "ages" in Rev.14:11; 20:10.

1 Cor.15:24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

AGAIN.....you purposely mistranslate the accepted meaning of ALL Scriptures to meet you opinions.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28...…….
The word "end" (τέλος telos) denotes properly a limit, termination, completion of anything. The proper and obvious meaning of the word here is, that then shall be the end or completion of the work of redemption.

Luke 1:33.............
"and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."

That completly destroys your opinions.!!!!

Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

You could not have posted better Scriptures to disprove your false opinions.....
THANKS!

 

[Major1]

There's no "aionios" in Rev.20:10 & the EOB opposes Bullinger:

BTW your pope of all popes EOB Bible translates Rev.20:10 using the English word "ages" not the "for ever and ever" self contradictory non literal nonsense that changes God's Words & deceives readers.

So who is wrong? Bullinger or your pope of all Bible versions?

____________________________________


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."


If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Actually, you are right and you are wrong.

"Aiomios" can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25....
"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past."

But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning.

With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.

It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.
A look at the word "aionion" | CARM.org

 

[Major1]

What does Hebrew have to do with with your post re: Rev 20;10? I'm sorry I thought you knew that all of the NT writers, except for maybe Luke, were Jews so their writings are full of Hebraisms.
The EOB and Rev 20:10 recognizes, as I have said repeatedly, "aionios" as with many Greek words are sometimes used hyperbolically.

When you provide reasons why everyone you quote, e.g. Ely, Ramelli etc, translates words the way they do then, and only then will you have any justification to demand that of me or anyone else.
As for Origen, the UR pope of all popes, PROVE IT! And I will quote where Origen said "eternal life never perishes, remains. is not taken away, is not consumed." And defines eternal life as the opposite of "corruption" and those who have eternal life will not taste death.
When Origen "spoke of an end of all ages, an end of age of the ages & an end of ages of the ages" which Greek word(s) was Origen talking about?
Perhaps you should refrain from quoting all those biased UR writers.

LOL!!! I thought that as well!

 

[Der Alte]

Early in my tenure here back when Clinton was Prez. After seeing the UR objection that "aonios never means eternal" I did a word study in the NT.
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” cannot mean eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
But neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..In 9 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. Jesus used “aionios” twenty nine times. He never used “aionios to refer to anything that was clearly not eternal.
In 10 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.

[1] Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2] Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[3] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos] ​

In this verse the reign basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[4] 2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios] ​

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5] 2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens. ​

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[6] Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7] 1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8] 1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [/aionios]​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9] Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios]​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [aion] ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. ​

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[14] Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life.​

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15] 1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen.​

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16] Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[19] John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[20] Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is.

[21] Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen.​

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[24] John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[25] John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."​

According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent

●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.​

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.​

​

 

[ClementofA]

With all the preponderance of translations, why do you only use the Darby and Msg & YLT to substantiate your belief?????

Are you not aware that Greek-English Interlinears back me up? And multiple - literal - translations? And early church fathers writings? And various scholars?

Of course i prefer the literal translations over those you posted that have changed the Words of God, the Scriptures, to conform to their own theological biases, thereby misleading & deceiving the masses.

The facts simply don't support your endless tortures churchianity dogma created by "the church" of "holy crusades", burning to death those who dared to think otherwise at the stake, Inquisitions torturing those labelled "heretics", & much more bad fruit.

And here is a chart comparing examples of literal & idio[ma]tic renderings:

"Idiomatic or Idiotic?
ORIGINAL.......................................ENGLISHED.... STULTIFIED
[The Bible is the]............................book of books..book and book
[The Lord's Coming is the]....................day of days....day and day
shir eshirim..................................song of songs..song and song
qdsh equdshim.................................holy of holies.holy and holy
kurios kuridn.................................Lord of lords..Lord and lord
oasileus basileon..............................King of kings.King and king
aionos tdn aidnon............................ eon of eons....ever and ever (R.V.) throughout all ages, world without end. (A.V.)"

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab...ernal+Torment+or+Universal+Reconciliation.pdf



Does "foreverS AND everS" Make Sense to You?
Does "foreverS AND everS" Make Sense to You?

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

#4

AIN -- AINIOS

The Greek Words "aion" and "aionios," do these words mean "eternal" or "everlasting"?

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?


*********************************************



Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."
"You are fully, completely, and thoroughly adored by God."

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

 

[ClementofA]

AGAIN.....you purposely mistranslate the accepted meaning of ALL Scriptures to meet you opinions.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28...…….
The word "end" (τέλος telos) denotes properly a limit, termination, completion of anything. The proper and obvious meaning of the word here is, that then shall be the end or completion of the work of redemption.

Luke 1:33.............
"and he will reign over Jacob's descendants forever; his kingdom will never end."

That completly destroys your opinions.!!!!

Huh? What you think the word "end" means has no relevance to what i posted.

And it is - you - who just posted a misleading translation of Lk.1:33. Here is a proper literal translation from this Greek-English Interlinear:

Luke 1:33 Greek Text Analysis

Once again you post a translation that deceives the masses.

Nothing you posted disproves what i said:

Since Christ's reign ends as per 1 Cor.15:24-28, His reign for the ages (Lk.1:33) will end. So "for the ages" (Lk.1:33) is finite. Compare "ages" in Rev.14:11; 20:10.

1 Cor.15:24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

 

[ClementofA]

Actually, you are right and you are wrong.

"Aiomios" can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25....
"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past."

But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning.

With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.

It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.
A look at the word "aionion" | CARM.org

Brother Slick states from the same article you quote:

"To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is

"aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.

The truth is, they are right."

A look at the word "aionion" | CARM.org

"The truth is, they are right", Matt Slick affirms. Universalists are right. He agrees that the universalists are right that the Greek word aionios can, in certain contexts, "refer to a finite period of time".

So the context of each passage where aionios occurs, both the immediate & larger contexts of Scripture, should be considered to determine the meaning of aionios in any given verse.

Slick goes on to argue aionios means "eternal" in 1 Tim.6:16 where it is applied to God's dominion. He says His dominion is not finite, but eternal, so aionios there must mean "eternal". But that is faulty logic. God's dominion could be understood to occur both within long finite "eonian" periods like an eon or eons (unlike the brief dominions of human Kings & Emperors) or from finite "age to age" as well as being "eternal". All 1 Tim.6:16 may be saying is that His dominion is eonian - unlike that of earthly rulers - without even addressing the subject of its eternality. Just as Scripture elsewhere tells us He is the "Ancient of Days" & He is "from of old" & from "age to age". To say "God rules this day" does not deny He ruled yesterday or will rule tomorrow, or rule this present wicked eon, or the previous eon, or without end. When Scripture speaks of Satan as the "god of this eon" (2 Cor.4:4), that doesn't deny that he was god of the previous eon or eons or that he won't rule for a short time at the end of the millenium.

1 Tim.6:16 Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (CLV)

Does this limit God sustaining a man only till old age & deny He will also sustain him in the after life:

Isa.46:4 Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you

Here in 1 Timothy 6:16 Aionios clearly means forever and not just a coming age.

Not necessarily. God's power is not only in eternity but also in eons (i.e. ages) when He works in people's lives & demonstrates His power through creation & the resurrection of Christ, etc. Here God Himself is said to be aionion & epiaionion(more than aionion):

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

Which is verified by the following:

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”

“…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]

The same Greek word for "eternal" is used of the "eternal fire" (Jude 1:7) that burned Sodom & was not "eternal" but temporary, i.e. finite.

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

"He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[OLAM] hills do bow; His goings are as of old.[OLAM]" Hab.3:6, JPS

But thou, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, Which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; Whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days. Micah 5:2

Matt Slick then goes on to list verses from mistranslated Bible versions that he assumes prove his case that aionios means "eternal" in such contexts. These verses have been addresed before. For some examples, see:

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

Spirit blasphemy in harmony with universal salvation:
Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin
Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?
http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...ves-holy-spirit-blasphemers.html#post53259200
Question about eternal damnation
God loves those who are blaspheming the Holy Spirit - Theology Online
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
Universalism in harmony with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit
the penalty for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is...
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism
The Restitution Of All Things A.K.A. Universalism


the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

Could most modern translations be in error?

 

[Der Alte]

...

Of course i prefer the literal translations over those you posted that have changed the Words of God, the Scriptures, to conform to their own theological biases, thereby misleading & deceiving the masses.

This is a false statement. You have no credible way of determining which if any versions are "literal." You standard for what is "literal" is any version/translation which supports your UR assumptions/presuppositions.

 

[Butch5]

Very interesting, thank you.




If Jesus is indeed alluding to this passage in Deuteronomy, then is the purpose of the Rich man's suffering not also disclosed here, which is to move the priesthood to anger and jealousy towards Jesus for his reward/ inheritance and prompt introspection into their own foolish way of life?

That to me would be consistent with a number of other scriptures whereby God uses jealousy to bring Israel to repentance, perhaps most notably Romans:

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. (Rom 11:13-14)

This is also the case where Jesus begins his ministry at the Nazarene Synagogue, suggesting that the Jews have missed the boat and God's favour/ grace will instead be given to the gentiles, in response to which they try to throw him off a cliff.

"And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian." And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; (Lk 4:27-28)

So, provoked to jealousy and rage in order that they might see their errors, the overarching purpose to be:

so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn 20:31)

So the sufferings of the Rich Man are self-inflicted, the sins of pride/ arrogance, hypocrisy and wilful blindness, and those sins earn God's wrath, which provoke him to jealousy and rage at what he interprets as gross injustice at the beggars, hookers and tax men entering heaven before him. And, more importantly, his torments are instructive, corrective, and ultimately produce repentance and humility, the conversion to Christ.

So I don't see this parable as containing any special insights into the antechamber of Hades, but rather a colorful and provocative illustration of Jesus' 'usual' teachings. If I'm hearing you right, I think you'd concur?

Hey, sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I would agree. I would emphasize that the parable is directed to the leadership. The parable also speaks of a great gulf that cannot be crossed. I believe that is a reference to a period of time. The time that Paul calls "the fullness of the Gentiles".

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved1, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins1."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. (Rom. 11:25-28 NKJ)

Here Paul says that Israel has been blinded until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. I believe this is the time that the Rich Man, the priesthood, is in torment in the flame. In the parable Abraham says no one can cross either way. I believe this is a set time that no one can alter. I believe that at the end of this time God will once again give Israel a chance. In the end of the Old Testament God told the Jews To remember the Law of Moses.

"For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.
4 "Remember the Law of Moses, My servant, Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel, With the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
6 And he will turn The hearts of the fathers to the children, And the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse." (Mal. 4:1-6 NKJ)

God tells them, when this day comes to remember the Law of Moses. The Rich Man, the priesthood, went into this torment when the city was destroyed in AD. 70. Since then there has been no priesthood. I believe this time in between is the the times of the Gentiles. I believe this time is also spoken of in the Old Testament and is about 1960 years.