Hades Is A Real Place of Torment and Agony

[Der Alte]

***

Therefore why - blindly - believe BDAG's reason-less conclusions. Yet many do. And then regurgitate them as if they are gospel.
Many scholars disagree with BDAG on many points, including those related to aionion. So why trust in one guy's (Danker of BDAG) opinion over all the rest?
In some cases BDAG is opposed by the vast majority of other scholars....

Nonsense. BDAG is NOT opposed by the vast majority of other scholars!
And every pitiful UR attempt at "translating."aionios" are "reason-less conclusions. Look at your copy/paste posts above show me one instance where anything you quoted give any credible reason except "'aionios' never means eternal."
You have ignored the more than 40 sources BDAG listed in the definition of "aionos" which the scholars reviewed in determining the correct meaning. Unlike UR writers credible scholars don't just make up meanings for words.
Nothing you have or could quote even comes close to that much documentation. UR-ites are the ones who blindly follow and regurgitate anything/everything some UR friendly person says.

 

[ClementofA]

Wrong! That is NOT what BDAG says!

Yes it does. I even gave you the page number:

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

I have the digital version of BDAG 2000 and in the definition of "aionios," which I was talking about, Col 1;20 is NOT mentioned because "aionios" does not occur in that verse.

Irrelevant. Obviously aionios doesn't occur in Col.1:20. So what?

What you have done is copy/pasted something from a biased UR site which you evidently have uncritically accepted.

Wrong. I have BDAG on my shelf & copied it from there.

Here's what you've never refuted:

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

All irrelevant to my post. Neither "aion" nor "aionios" occurs in Col 1:20.
But let us look at something totally foreign to UR-ites "context."

Colossians 1:20-23
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

It does say "to reconcile all things to himself" BUT there are conditions which UR-ites either are not aware of or totally ignore.
Vs. 23 "If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, ..."
If those words were not important Paul would not have written them. The converse is "If you do not continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be moved away from the hope of the gospel you will not be reconciled."

That's not what BDAG says, so you'll have to take that up with dead Danker.


"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

<ClementA said>While here in Colossians 1 we see the parallel between God creating all and reconciling all:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross...

Any heterodox group can make the scripture say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture out-of-context. Vs. 20 "to reconcile all to Himself by Him"
does this say that Jesus will reconcile all mankind to Himself, no matter what? Let us read a little bit more to understand the full context.

Colossians 1:20-23
(20) and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
(21) Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
(22) But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
(23) if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Jesus came "to reconcile all, for the purpose of reconciling all, to Himself"" but there is a condition "if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel."If someone does not continue in the faith and moves from the hope held out in the gospel" there is no reconciliation.

The context shows that verses 21-23 are a different topic from verses 16-20 in which the parallel of verses 16 & 20 occur. In v.21-23 the subject is not all creation as in v.16,20, but
instead the Colossians, the saints. Paul says they will be presented "holy in His sight" (v.22) if they continue in the faith, clearly a reference to a specific time, the time when they
meet the Lord, which for these saints would have been when they died, & for others when He returns. So v.22-23 refer to a time no later than the second coming & tell us nothing about
reconciliation possibilities for "all" beyond that time. So verses 22-23 in no way limit the parallel of verses 16 & 20 from being a future universal reconciliation of created beings
in the ages to come after the Lord's return, such as in the millennial age or in the ages of the new heavens & new earth. Nowhere does Paul say of those who don't continue in the faith
that they are excluded from the "all" of verse 20. Therefore your specious argument fails.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same
reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Read more: What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus came "to reconcile all, for the purpose of reconciling all, to Himself

In that case all the dead of OT times & all fallen angels are included. So there is still hope for them.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross" (Col.1:20), how can God let anyone end up being tortured forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins
against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"ἀποκαταλλάσσω is found in the NT only in Col. and Eph., where καταλλάσσω does not occur. Since it is never found prior to Paul, it is perhaps coined by him....In men [it] is
preceded by alienation and enmity (Col.1:22)...Col.1:20 speaks of the gracious purpose which God had demonstrated...to reconcile the whole world to Himself; it does not speak of a reconciliation of the world already concluded. ἀποκαταλλάξαι cannot refer merely to the removal of a relationship of guilt by God, since it is plainly expounded as a conclusion of peace in Col.1:20 and Eph.2:15. Hence it is not something one-sided. It embraces the total life situation of man. It does not refer merely to his guilt before God. In Eph.2:16 reconciliation to God also brings reconciliation to Jews and Gentiles, and in Col.1:20 the reconciliation of men to God also carries with it that of supraterrestrial beings" (The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.1, p.258-259, Friedrich Buschel, ed. Gerhard Kittel, 1st printing 1964, 2006).

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).


"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if
we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular
demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-7138/

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

 

[Major1]

“If your understanding of the Divine made you kinder, more empathetic, and impelled you to express sympathy in concrete acts of loving-kindness, this was good theology. But if your notion of God made you unkind, belligerent, cruel, of self-righteous, or if it led you to kill in God's name, it was bad theology. ” -Karen Armstrong-

John 17:17...…..
"Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth."

Do you think that the account of the Flood in Genesis was kind, empathetic, sympathetic, & loving???

Do you think that when God told Saul to kill all the Amalekites He was kind and loving and sympathetic ???

There are many things in the Bible that I do not like but I was never asked to contribute to the Bible. I just read it and believe and I do not try to change it it fit what I do not like.

 

[ClementofA]

AIONION:

Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

"No matter how widely accepted a lexicon is, to uncritically accept whatever it says without question is only to perpetuate the errors of those who contributed to it if they have (whether unintentionally or because of theological bias) made any.

Now, since the New Testament was not written by Greeks but by Hebrew men using the Greek language, shouldn’t we expect the idioms and word-meanings found in the NT to be, in general, derived not from secular Greek literature, but rather from the Old Testament Scriptures? While I’m certainly not suggesting that 1st century secular Greek works should be disregarded as irrelevant, shouldn’t the LXX be considered more appropriate and useful in determining the meaning(s) that Christ and the authors of the NT (who, of course, were Jewish) would have ascribed to the words aion and aionios rather than, say, the works of a 4th century BC Classical Greek philosopher? I mean, assuming there was such a thing in existence in the 1st century as the Hebrew Bible translated into Koine Greek, shouldn’t it be one of the primary sources to which one should refer when trying to ascertain what a 1st century Jew most likely meant when he used the words aion and aionios in a work written in Koine Greek? Or am I missing something?

As far as the definitions of aionios provided by BDAG, I think the first definition given (“pertaining to a long period of time” that is past) could apply to the word as it appears in the LXX in a number of places (e.g., Job 22:15; Ps 24:7; Ps 24:9; Ps 77:5; Pro 22:28; Pro 23:10; Isa 58:12; Isa 61:4; Isa 63:11; Jer 6:16; Jer 18:15; Eze 26:20; Eze 36:2; Hab 3:6). But I wonder what definition of aionios BDAG would consider most appropriate when a time of limited future duration is in view? Because the LXX abounds with such examples (e.g., Gen 17:7; Gen 17:8; Gen 17:13; Gen 17:19; Gen 48:4; Ex 12:14; Ex 12:17; Ex 27:21; Ex 28:43; Ex 29:28; Ex 30:21; Ex 31:16; Ex 31:17; Lev 6:18; Lev 6:22; Lev 7:34; Lev 7:36; Lev 10:9; Lev 10:15; Lev 16:29; Lev 16:31; Lev 16:34; Lev 17:7; Lev 23:14; Lev 23:21; Lev 23:31; Lev 23:41; Lev 24:3; Lev 24:8; Lev 24:9; Lev 25:34; Num 10:8; Num 15:15; Num 18:8; Num 18:11; Num 18:19; Num 18:23; Num 19:10; Num 19:21; Num 25:13; 1Ch 16:17; Job 3:18; Job 10:22; Job 21:11; Job 41:4; Ps 76:4; Ps 78:66; Ps 105:10; Isa 24:5; Isa 55:13; Isa 60:15; Jer 5:22; Jer 18:16; Jer 20:17; Jer 23:40; Jer 25:9; Jer 25:12; Jer 51:39; Eze 35:5; Eze 35:9; Jon 2:6; Mic 2:9).

While some might see the remaining occurrences of aionios in the LXX as falling under the last two definitions provided by BDAG (e.g., Gen 9:12; Gen 9:16; Gen 21:33; Ex 3:15; 2Sa 23:5; Job 33:12; Job 34:17; Ps 112:6; Ps 139:24; Isa 26:4; Isa 33:14; Isa 35:10; Isa 40:28; Isa 45:17; Isa 51:11; Isa 54:4; Isa 54:8; Isa 55:3; Isa 56:5; Isa 60:19; Isa 60:20; Isa 61:7-8; Isa 63:12; Jer 31:3; Jer 32:40; Jer 50:5; Eze 16:60; Eze 37:26; Dan 4:3; Dan 4:34; Dan 7:14; Dan 7:27; Dan 9:24; Dan 12:2), I think even these examples can be understood as referring to temporary duration rather than endless duration in an absolute sense. At any rate, most would agree that, while long and indefinite duration is most likely in view in the former examples, endless duration in an absolute sense is not. So I’m not sure why we can’t understand aionios in Matt 25:46 (for example) to have the same or similar meaning as it has in the LXX translation of Num 25:13 or Jer 25:9.

I like the concluding definition for aionios found in The Vocabulary of the Greek Testament (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan): “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance, or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Caesar’s life.” That is, the word stands for a “hidden” and indefinite duration of time, whether past or future. This seems to be the meaning of olam in the Hebrew Bible, and since aion and aionion seem to have been employed by the inspired writers of the NT as the Greek equivalents of this single Hebrew word, this definition would be most consistent. And as it seems likely that Jesus would’ve spoken Hebrew or Aramaic (at least, when he was speaking to his disciples, like in Matt 25:46), the word he would have used would have either been olam or alam."

BDAG on aionios

Could most modern translations be in error?

Most Bible translations (=opinions of Scripture) be in error? (Micah, traditions, Gospels) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

the finiteness of "eternal life" (aionon zoe) in John?

Nonsense. BDAG is NOT opposed by the vast majority of other scholars!

Nobody said it was. What i posted was:

Therefore why - blindly - believe BDAG's reason-less conclusions. Yet many do. And then regurgitate them as if they are gospel.

Many scholars disagree with BDAG on many points, including those related to aionion. So why trust in one guy's (Danker of BDAG) opinion over all the rest?

In some cases BDAG is opposed by the vast majority of other scholars.

For the aionion entry, for example, why did BDAG leave out dozens of usages of the word where it refers to a finite duration, which i give here:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

And every pitiful UR attempt at "translating."aionios" are "reason-less conclusions.

Oh really?

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Look at your copy/paste posts above show me one instance where anything you quoted give any credible reason except "'aionios' never means eternal."

Irrelevant strawman.

You have ignored the more than 40 sources BDAG listed in the definition of "aionos" which the scholars reviewed in determining the correct meaning.

Scholars? You mean dead Danker?

For the aionion entry, for example, why did BDAG leave out dozens of usages of the word where it refers to a finite duration, which i give here:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Unlike UR writers credible scholars don't just make up meanings for words.

So you have faith in the one man, Danker, like a pope?

Nothing you have or could quote even comes close to that much documentation.

Don't be silly. There are online sources that list way more Koine Greek references to aionion that BDAG. BDAG is barely scratching the surface.

UR-ites are the ones who blindly follow and regurgitate anything/everything some UR friendly person says.

Who are your leaders you are "blindly follow[ing] and regurgitat[ing]?

Therefore why - blindly - believe BDAG's reason-less conclusions. Yet many do. And then regurgitate them as if they are gospel.

Many scholars disagree with BDAG on many points, including those related to aionion. So why trust in one guy's (Danker of BDAG) opinion over all the rest?

In some cases BDAG is opposed by the vast majority of other scholars.

For the aionion entry, for example, why did BDAG leave out dozens of usages of the word where it refers to a finite duration, which i give here:

Two Questions

Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Here is what BDAG says re Col.1:20:

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

Co.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

This states the purpose of Love Omnipotent's - divine will - in sending His Son:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

The IVA ("that") is used in Jn.3:17 above. BDAG says “In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows
according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the *divine will*…”
https://translate.academic.ru/ἵνα/el/xx/

The IVA also occurs in Phil.2:9-11:

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASB)

What is the "world" in Jn.1:29; 3:17, 4:42 according to BDAG? According to BDAG by "world" in such verses is meant "humanity in general". Jesus Himself would be the only exception:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)
They said to the woman, "We now believe not only because of your words; we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man truly is the Savior of the world. (Jn.4:42)
For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world would be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

And BDAG again, re Rom.5:18, is quoted in this commentary:

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter
he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10
...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
"obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"
...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor;
(2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which
"many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins
...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

(Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

 

[Major1]

With your powerful got questions as back up, please find out if the following is a synecdoche or a metonymy?

Col 1:16 - 20

"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."

So you are trying to validate your theology by using Grammar.

If there is a real difference, IMO it would be in the way someone would
approach the subject in that they were trying to prove the comment or disprove it. Are you trying to replace the whole or are you just wanting to make it a part of something.

I on the other hand would be accepting just as it is written.....Literally.

In the KJV.....ALL THINGS were created by CHRIST means that ALL things were created by Christ which to make it simplier for you, Jesus Christ was the agent of Creation.

He then beame the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE and EVERYONE who accepts Him as their Saviour will go to heaven just as the Scriptures declare in the Scriptures.

 

[Major1]

With your powerful got questions as back up, please find out if the following is a synecdoche or a metonymy?

Col 1:16 - 20

"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."

Is there really a difference?

 

[Major1]

With your powerful got questions as back up, please find out if the following is a synecdoche or a metonymy?

Col 1:16 - 20

"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."

So you are trying to validate your theology by using Grammar.

If there is a real difference, IMO it would be in the way someone would
approach the subject in that they were trying to prove the comment or disprove it. Are you trying to replace the whole or are you just wanting to make it a part of something.

I on the other hand would be accepting just as it is written.....Literally.

In the KJV.....ALL THINGS were created by CHRIST means that ALL things.

Things were created by Christ which to make it simpler for you, Jesus Christ was the agent of Creation.

He then beame the WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE and EVERYONE who accepts Him as their Saviour will go to heaven just as the Scriptures declare in the Scriptures.

Does “all” usually mean “all of everything,” or “all of that part being spoken about”? Does all the world mean all the planet, or just all of that part of the planet being spoken about? A look through Young’s Analytical Concordance will show how these words are used. This will give an indication without having to go into the Greek. Being certain on this topic is well worth the time involved researching lexicons to determine the correct meanings of the words used.

To grasp the use of all in Greek and Hebrew, consider Deuteronomy 28:10, “and all the people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD, and they shall be afraid of thee”. Here, all the peoples of the earth does NOT include Israel. In the same way, go ye into all the world is NOT inclusive of every race. Failure to understand this is the source of error in the modern popular teaching.

The Messiah says that it is not given for everyone to hear or to understand. Immediately we have just one exception, then “every” and “all” cannot include that exception, or the other exceptions. If an exception is made about the Edomites who cannot find repentance, or of those the Messiah said, leave them alone, then these cannot be part of the “all” being addressed. The Messiah did not proclaim to certain peoples, as we have seen. The Messiah said he was sent to Israel to save his people Israel from their sins. Are we to be wiser than the Messiah?
The Misuse of the Words, "All," "Every," "Whoseoever," Etc.

 

[Major1]

Wow, that's amazing. I really find that hard to believe. Really.

Another thing to remember is that Jesus spoke in parables to the leadership that they wouldn't understand. The whole point of a parable is to explain some "other" truth. Just like that parable of the vineyard wasn't really about people raising grapes in a vineyard. It was a judgment against Israel. God was telling them that He was taking the Kingdom from them and giving it to others, and that He would destroy their city for killing His Son. Jesus was telling them how to treat people or grow grapes. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is the same.

I do not agree Butch. As I have already stated, a great many Bible scholars have said that Luke 16 is NOT a parable for the following reasons...….

1. The story is never called a parable.
2. The story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person.
3. This particular story does not fit the definition of a parable.
4. The story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables which are earthly.

I can not do anymore than that for you. If you choose to reject those commenst and stick with what you already believe, then may God bless you.

 

[Major1]

Wrong! That is NOT what BDAG says! I have the digital version of BDAG 2000 and in the definition of "aionios," which I was talking about, Col 1;20 is NOT mentioned because "aionios" does not occur in that verse. What you have done is copy/pasted something from a biased UR site which you evidently have uncritically accepted.

Are you surprised that would happen???????????

 

[Major1]

Like I said, If you can show me something that says the church is going to be taken out of the world before the Tribulation I'm all ears. But the passages you posted don't say that.

Well that is all I can do for you my brother.

A.
(I Thessalonians 1:10)….
“And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

In examining this verse there are three things we need to recognize:

(1). Paul was writing to Christians (1:1 and 5:25). They were already delivered from the wrath of Hell. (John 3:36).

(2). Notice “which delivered us” is translated in the past tense. This is incorrect, as the Greek has it in the future tense. It should read as “who delivers us,” or, “which will deliver us.”

(3). The “wrath to come” is not in reference to Hell; but, rather, to the Tribulation Period. Revelation 6:17, “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Therefore, the Christians that are alive at the Rapture will not go into the Tribulation, known as the “day of his wrath.” Notice the word “us,” which includes all Christians, the spiritual and the backslider. As many say, “The Church is not ruptured; but, raptured!”

B.
(I Thessalonians 5:9)…...
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath (Tribulation wrath, same as 1:10); but to obtain salvation (i.e., “deliverance”) by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Greek word for “salvation” is “SOTERIA” and denotes “deliverance, preservation, salvation.” For example: In Acts 27:34, the word “health” is from the Greek “soteria.” In other words, in Verse 33 we find the sailors had gone 14 days without eating. In Verse 34 Paul said, “…take ( or eat) some meat: for this is for your health, (i.e. “your deliverance).” from getting sick or dying. Also, in Philippians 1:19, “salvation” should have been translated “deliverance”, since he was speaking about his deliverance from prison from where he had written to the Philippians. A literal translation of Verse 9 would read, “For God hath not appointed us (Christians) to the wrath of the tribulation, but to obtain deliverance from it, when the Lord Jesus Christ comes for His Church.” In Chapter 4, verses 13-18, we have the Rapture. Chapter 5 continues with Christ’s return at the Rapture, assuring all Christians that they will be delivered from the Tribulation Period.

C.
The Spiritual and Carnal Christians are ALL raptured at the same time. The following Scriptures refute the erroneous and false teaching that only the spiritual Christians will be raptured; while the carnal Christians will have to go through the Tribulation. We will continue from Point B, above, as we examine and analyze the next verse, I Thessalonians 5:10. “Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep; we should live together with him (Christ).” We will look at 3 important words in this verse.

(1). “Wake.” It is the same Greek word “gregoreo” as translated “watch” in Verse 6. “Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us WATCH and be sober.”

(2). “Sleep.” The Greek word for “sleep” in Verse 10 is the same as that for “sleep” in Verse 6. “Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.” Therefore, sleep is in reference to those Christians who are “lying down on the job” and not serving the Lord. Some perverted minds try to proclaim that “sleep” here is referring to “death.” If that were true—how would you “watch and be sober” if you were dead? Preposterous!

(3). “Together.” The Greek word is “hama” and means “together at the same time.” (Vine’s Dictionary of New Testament Words).

Now, let us put Verse 10 together and write it out, including the meaning of each of the 3 words we have examined. “Who died for us, that, whether we wake (watching and serving the Lord), we should live together (at the same time) with him (Christ).” These Scriptures clearly set forth the truth that ALL Christians, those serving the Lord and those who are not, will be raptured together at the same time.

D.
A partial Rapture is Satan’s trickery to lead one to believe that you must suffer and/or have good works to complete God’s salvation. One must remember that the completion of our salvation is the redemption of our bodies!

Notice Romans 8:23, “…even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.”

At the Rapture our salvation is completed. Those who have died receive their resurrected bodies from the grave, while those that are alive have their bodies transformed as they go up to be with the Lord. (Philippians 3:20,21).

Those who propagate a partial Rapture have succumbed to Satan’s subtlety. (Genesis 3:1 and II Corinthians 11:3,13-15). If Satan cannot convince you that good works are necessary for salvation; then, he will attempt, through his ministers, to convince you that those that are backslidden must go into the Tribulation. Some that hold this view have told me that, this is to have them suffer for their disobedience and give them a chance to redeem themselves. Thus showing God they are really Christians by now being faithful while being persecuted. Sounds good—except it contradicts God’s Word! This damnable philosophy denies the Judgment Seat of Christ for all Christians, as well as Christ’s completing our salvation by His death and resurrection. Therefore, they do not believe one is saved eternally; but, rather, must have good works in order to maintain their salvation. Very stealthily, they accuse God of being a liar and unfaithful to His Word when He promised the believers they would “never perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16).

E.
“No Partial Rapture” Continued.
(I John 3:2)..........
“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear WE shall be like him; for WE shall see him as he is.” The “we” is all-inclusive of the spiritual and the carnal Christian. No distinction between the two is made here.

F.
“No Partial Rapture” Continued .
(I Corinthians 15:51,52)......
. “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE shall ALL be changed.” (Verse 51).

At the Rapture, ALL or every Christian, whether spiritual or not, will be changed, i.e., receive their glorified bodies. Notice the last 4 words in Verse 52, “…and WE shall be changed.” The “WE” is all-inclusive of every Christian. Again, a partial Rapture philosophy disintegrates in the light of God’s Word.

G.
“No Partial Rapture” Continued .
(I Thessalonians 4:17)........
“Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Again, the Holy Spirit uses the word “WE”, eliminating any distinction between the spiritual and carnal Christian; thus, illuminating the false teaching of a partial Rapture.

3. A final thought sealing the fate of the philosophy of a post-Tribulation Rapture. Follow with me as we look at some basic facts:

A. All raptured Christians receive their glorified bodies (Romans 8:22,23; and I Corinthians 15:50-54).

B. There are no children born to glorified bodies. (Matthew 22:23-30).

C. All unsaved are cast into Hell before the 1,000 Year Kingdom Reign of Christ. (Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 25:41).

D. If the Rapture is post-Tribulation, several problems arise with impossible solutions.

(1). Where do the mortal bodies come from of those that are born during the Millennium and rebel at the conclusion of the Millennium? (Revelation 20:7-10).

(2). There would be no lost people alive to have children, so they cannot come from them.

(3). All of the saved have their glorified bodies. No children can be born to them as a result of a post‑Tribulation Rapture.

(4). Remember, at the end of Christ’s 1,000 Year Reign there are unbelievers who will give their allegiance to Satan in an attempt to defeat Christ. (Revelation 20:7-10). How did they get their human bodies? Placing the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation and the start of the Millennium makes an impossible situation. At the Rapture all Christians have their glorified bodies, which do not produce human beings. All the lost are cast into Hell; therefore, the philosophy of a post-Tribulation Rapture is impossible. The Post-Tribulation Rapture philosophy also leads to other false doctrines. Colossians 2:8 is God’s warning concerning false teachers, “Beware lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

4. Note. If Post-Tribulation Rapture were true; then, the last generation alive would be the only generation in over 2,000 years since the Church Age began to have to go through the Tribulation. Then, we would have to conclude that God is not a fair God.

5. Note. If the Rapture is at the conclusion of the Tribulation; then, why are we not told to be praying for “that blessed hope and glorious appearing of that blessed tribulation!” Yet, the Word of God tells us, in Titus 2:13, that the Christian is to be, “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
Will the Church Be Raptured Before, During, or After the Tribulation Period?

That's it brother, for me. If you stll reject it then I guess I will see you on the way uo. Please wear a name tag so I can recognize you and say....
"See I told you so".

 

[FineLinen]

So you are trying to validate your theology by using Grammar.

My position is quite clear. Our Father does not lose. He does not lose remnate leftover morsels of bread & fish! The broken and bruised masses for whom He is the at-one-ment are more important to Him: He loses NOTHING!

 

[FineLinen]

All does not mean all ?

1 Cor. 15:22

“For as in Adam some die, so also in Christ some shall be made alive. But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished some rule and some authority and power.”

Rev. 5:13

“And some created things that are in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and some things in them, I heard saying, To Him who sits on the throne and the Lamb, be blessing and honour and glory and dominion and power forever.”

Col. 1:18-20

“He too is that head whose body is the Church, the Firstborn from the dead, he is to the Church the Source of its life, that in some things He might occupy the foremost place/ to be in some things alone supreme. For it pleased the Father that in him the divine nature in some of its fulness should dwell. And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile some things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things on earth, or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes alienated…”

Acts 3:20,21

“And He will send Jesus, your destined Christ, yet heaven must retain Him, until the restitution of some things. (when some things are put right)”

1 Cor. 15:28

“And when some things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put some things under Him, that God may be some in some.”

1 Cor. 15:25,27

“For He must reign until He hath put some enemies under His feet…For He hath put some things under His feet. But when He saith some things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put some things under Him.”

Romans 11:32

“For God has consigned some men to disobedience that He might have mercy upon some.”

Eph. 4:10

“Yea, He who came down is the same who is gone up, far above some heavens, that He might fill some things with His Presence.”

John 5:28

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which some that are in the graves shall hear His voice. Those who have done good will to live and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”

1 Timothy 2:4

“For this is good and pleasing in the eyes of God our Saviour; who will have some men to be saved and come to an increasing knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 2:6

“For there is one intermediary (One who brings God and men together) who gave Himself a ransom in behalf of some to be testified in due time.”

Cor. 5:15

“For the love of God overmasters us because we judge that if one died for some, then were some dead; And that His purpose in dying for some was that men, while still in life, should cease to live for themselves, and should live for Him who for their sake died and was raised to life.”

Col. 1:16

"For by Him were some things created, of things in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen (angels or archangels and some of the powers of Heaven)…some things were created by Him, and for Him (some were made by Christ for His own use and glory.)

John 3:35

“The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand (has given Him control over less than everything). Whoever trusts on the Son possesses eternal life and he who does not obey the Son, God’s displeasure hangs over him continually.”

Gal. 3:20

“But the Scripture has concluded/consigned some without exception to the custody of sin, in order that the promise by faith in Christ Jesus might be given to those who believe in Him.”

Heb. 1:2

“God…hath in these days spoken unto us in His Son who is the predestined Lord of the universe. (whom he has appointed heir of some things)”

2 Cor. 5:14

“For the love of Christ constraineth/overmasters/compels/controls us, and this is the conviction we have reached; if one man died on behalf of some, then some thereby became dead men. Christ died for some, so that being alive should no longer mean living with our own life, but with his life who died for some of us and has risen again.”

Heb.8:11

“And they shall not teach some men his neighbor, and some his brother, saying get to know the Lord, for some of them shall know me from small to great. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness…”

Acts 10:36

"The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: He is Lord of some.

Rom. 11:36

“For from him some things come; through Him some things exists; and in him some things end.” (For of him and through him, and to him are some things.)

Eph. 4:6

“One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of some, who is over some, and works through some, and dwells in some.”

Heb. 12:23

“To the festal gathering and Church of the first-born, enrolled as citizens in heaven, and to God the Judge of some men and unto the spirits of righteous ones made perfect.”

James 2:10

“For whomsoever shall keep the whole law, but fails in a single point, has become guilty of violating some.”

Romans 3:22,23

“…the righteous of God which comes by believing in Jesus Christ. …For some have sinned/ none have attained the glorious likeness of God/lack the glory that comes from God/ are deprived of the Divine splendour.”

John 17:2

“As thou has made him sovereign over some of mankind that he should give aeonios life to as many as thou hast given him.”

Romans 9:5

“The patriarchs are theirs and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. May God who is supreme above some, be blessed throughout the ages.”

2 Peter 3:9

“The Lord is not slack/does not loiter/ is not dilatory concerning his promise, according to some people’s conception of slowness; but He bears patiently with you, because it is not His will for any to be lost, but for some to come/reach repentance.”

Phil. 2:10,11

In order that in adoration of the Name of Jesus some knees will bow themselves and openly acknowledge with joy, in celebration and praise, that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This profession and confession of His lordship shall be open and freely proclaimed, acknowledged joyfully by some beings in the heavens, by some beings on the earth and by some beings in the underworld.

John 12:32

“If I be lifted up, I will draw all unto Me.”

Radical Unbelievers Bible=

If I be lifted up, I will draw some unto Me.

Please Remember…

All does not radically mean all.

Whole is not whole.

All = Some

Which one of these passages is a synecdoche or a metonymy?

 

[Butch5]

I do not agree Butch. As I have already stated, a great many Bible scholars have said that Luke 16 is NOT a parable for the following reasons...….

1. The story is never called a parable.
2. The story of the rich man and Lazarus uses the actual name of a person.
3. This particular story does not fit the definition of a parable.
4. The story is the afterlife, as opposed to the parables which are earthly.

I can not do anymore than that for you. If you choose to reject those commenst and stick with what you already believe, then may God bless you.

A lot of people once believed the earth was flat. That didn't make it flat. Just because a lot of people believe something has no bearing on its truth. A lot of people believe in evolution, that doesn't make it true. As I've pointed out none of these "reasons" means it's not a parable. The reasoning used is flawed.
It starts the same as the parable before it, 'there was a certain rich man. The parable before that one starts with, 'there was a certain man'. Scripture records that Jesus only spoke to them with parables.

However, as I've stated, your starting with a flawed premise. The idea that man can live apart from the body cannot be established from Scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

Wrong! That is NOT what BDAG says! I have the digital version of BDAG 2000 and in the definition of "aionios," which I was talking about, Col 1;20 is NOT mentioned because "aionios" does not occur in that verse. What you have done is copy/pasted something from a biased UR site which you evidently have uncritically accepted.

Are you surprised that would happen???????????

Not one bit. I commented on it so that the unsuspecting are not deceived by UR twisting of scripture and sources.

 

[Butch5]

Well that is all I can do for you my brother.

A.
(I Thessalonians 1:10)….
“And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”

In examining this verse there are three things we need to recognize:

(1). Paul was writing to Christians (1:1 and 5:25). They were already delivered from the wrath of Hell. (John 3:36).

(2). Notice “which delivered us” is translated in the past tense. This is incorrect, as the Greek has it in the future tense. It should read as “who delivers us,” or, “which will deliver us.”

(3). The “wrath to come” is not in reference to Hell; but, rather, to the Tribulation Period. Revelation 6:17, “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Therefore, the Christians that are alive at the Rapture will not go into the Tribulation, known as the “day of his wrath.” Notice the word “us,” which includes all Christians, the spiritual and the backslider. As many say, “The Church is not ruptured; but, raptured!”

B.
(I Thessalonians 5:9)…...
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath (Tribulation wrath, same as 1:10); but to obtain salvation (i.e., “deliverance”) by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Greek word for “salvation” is “SOTERIA” and denotes “deliverance, preservation, salvation.” For example: In Acts 27:34, the word “health” is from the Greek “soteria.” In other words, in Verse 33 we find the sailors had gone 14 days without eating. In Verse 34 Paul said, “…take ( or eat) some meat: for this is for your health, (i.e. “your deliverance).” from getting sick or dying. Also, in Philippians 1:19, “salvation” should have been translated “deliverance”, since he was speaking about his deliverance from prison from where he had written to the Philippians. A literal translation of Verse 9 would read, “For God hath not appointed us (Christians) to the wrath of the tribulation, but to obtain deliverance from it, when the Lord Jesus Christ comes for His Church.” In Chapter 4, verses 13-18, we have the Rapture. Chapter 5 continues with Christ’s return at the Rapture, assuring all Christians that they will be delivered from the Tribulation Period.

C.
The Spiritual and Carnal Christians are ALL raptured at the same time. The following Scriptures refute the erroneous and false teaching that only the spiritual Christians will be raptured; while the carnal Christians will have to go through the Tribulation. We will continue from Point B, above, as we examine and analyze the next verse, I Thessalonians 5:10. “Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep; we should live together with him (Christ).” We will look at 3 important words in this verse.

(1). “Wake.” It is the same Greek word “gregoreo” as translated “watch” in Verse 6. “Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us WATCH and be sober.”

(2). “Sleep.” The Greek word for “sleep” in Verse 10 is the same as that for “sleep” in Verse 6. “Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.” Therefore, sleep is in reference to those Christians who are “lying down on the job” and not serving the Lord. Some perverted minds try to proclaim that “sleep” here is referring to “death.” If that were true—how would you “watch and be sober” if you were dead? Preposterous!

(3). “Together.” The Greek word is “hama” and means “together at the same time.” (Vine’s Dictionary of New Testament Words).

Now, let us put Verse 10 together and write it out, including the meaning of each of the 3 words we have examined. “Who died for us, that, whether we wake (watching and serving the Lord), we should live together (at the same time) with him (Christ).” These Scriptures clearly set forth the truth that ALL Christians, those serving the Lord and those who are not, will be raptured together at the same time.

D.
A partial Rapture is Satan’s trickery to lead one to believe that you must suffer and/or have good works to complete God’s salvation. One must remember that the completion of our salvation is the redemption of our bodies!

Notice Romans 8:23, “…even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.”

At the Rapture our salvation is completed. Those who have died receive their resurrected bodies from the grave, while those that are alive have their bodies transformed as they go up to be with the Lord. (Philippians 3:20,21).

Those who propagate a partial Rapture have succumbed to Satan’s subtlety. (Genesis 3:1 and II Corinthians 11:3,13-15). If Satan cannot convince you that good works are necessary for salvation; then, he will attempt, through his ministers, to convince you that those that are backslidden must go into the Tribulation. Some that hold this view have told me that, this is to have them suffer for their disobedience and give them a chance to redeem themselves. Thus showing God they are really Christians by now being faithful while being persecuted. Sounds good—except it contradicts God’s Word! This damnable philosophy denies the Judgment Seat of Christ for all Christians, as well as Christ’s completing our salvation by His death and resurrection. Therefore, they do not believe one is saved eternally; but, rather, must have good works in order to maintain their salvation. Very stealthily, they accuse God of being a liar and unfaithful to His Word when He promised the believers they would “never perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16).

E.
“No Partial Rapture” Continued.
(I John 3:2)..........
“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear WE shall be like him; for WE shall see him as he is.” The “we” is all-inclusive of the spiritual and the carnal Christian. No distinction between the two is made here.

F.
“No Partial Rapture” Continued .
(I Corinthians 15:51,52)......
. “Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE shall ALL be changed.” (Verse 51).

At the Rapture, ALL or every Christian, whether spiritual or not, will be changed, i.e., receive their glorified bodies. Notice the last 4 words in Verse 52, “…and WE shall be changed.” The “WE” is all-inclusive of every Christian. Again, a partial Rapture philosophy disintegrates in the light of God’s Word.

G.
“No Partial Rapture” Continued .
(I Thessalonians 4:17)........
“Then WE which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Again, the Holy Spirit uses the word “WE”, eliminating any distinction between the spiritual and carnal Christian; thus, illuminating the false teaching of a partial Rapture.

3. A final thought sealing the fate of the philosophy of a post-Tribulation Rapture. Follow with me as we look at some basic facts:

A. All raptured Christians receive their glorified bodies (Romans 8:22,23; and I Corinthians 15:50-54).

B. There are no children born to glorified bodies. (Matthew 22:23-30).

C. All unsaved are cast into Hell before the 1,000 Year Kingdom Reign of Christ. (Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 25:41).

D. If the Rapture is post-Tribulation, several problems arise with impossible solutions.

(1). Where do the mortal bodies come from of those that are born during the Millennium and rebel at the conclusion of the Millennium? (Revelation 20:7-10).

(2). There would be no lost people alive to have children, so they cannot come from them.

(3). All of the saved have their glorified bodies. No children can be born to them as a result of a post‑Tribulation Rapture.

(4). Remember, at the end of Christ’s 1,000 Year Reign there are unbelievers who will give their allegiance to Satan in an attempt to defeat Christ. (Revelation 20:7-10). How did they get their human bodies? Placing the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation and the start of the Millennium makes an impossible situation. At the Rapture all Christians have their glorified bodies, which do not produce human beings. All the lost are cast into Hell; therefore, the philosophy of a post-Tribulation Rapture is impossible. The Post-Tribulation Rapture philosophy also leads to other false doctrines. Colossians 2:8 is God’s warning concerning false teachers, “Beware lest any man spoil you through PHILOSOPHY and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

4. Note. If Post-Tribulation Rapture were true; then, the last generation alive would be the only generation in over 2,000 years since the Church Age began to have to go through the Tribulation. Then, we would have to conclude that God is not a fair God.

5. Note. If the Rapture is at the conclusion of the Tribulation; then, why are we not told to be praying for “that blessed hope and glorious appearing of that blessed tribulation!” Yet, the Word of God tells us, in Titus 2:13, that the Christian is to be, “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.”
Will the Church Be Raptured Before, During, or After the Tribulation Period?

That's it brother, for me. If you stll reject it then I guess I will see you on the way uo. Please wear a name tag so I can recognize you and say....
"See I told you so".

In all of this you've not mentioned anything about the church going to Heaven. Being delivered from wrath doesn't necessarily mean one is delivered from that time period. As I've pointed out, God hasn't ever removed His people from the earth when He's brought His wrath. Please show me where you see the church going to Heaven.

Regarding the post trib, I don't see where the problems exist. There will be people who aren't saved who go into the Tribulation. They will be the ones to procreate.

Also, are you aware that the pre-trib rapture idea is a recent development in Christianity. Post -trib was the eschatology from the very beginning.

In your post you spoke a good bit about being delivered from wrath and you spoke of a partial rapture but you haven't shown where the Church is going to Heaven.

 

[Der Alte]

A lot of people once believed the earth was flat. That didn't make it flat. Just because a lot of people believe something has no bearing on its truth. A lot of people believe in evolution, that doesn't make it true. As I've pointed out none of these "reasons" means it's not a parable. The reasoning used is flawed.
It starts the same as the parable before it, 'there was a certain rich man. The parable before that one starts with, 'there was a certain man'. Scripture records that Jesus only spoke to them with parables.
However, as I've stated, your starting with a flawed premise. The idea that man can live apart from the body cannot be established from Scripture.

And it matters not that all the ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual?
The main reason Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable is that it does not have the format of a parable. Parable from Greek parabolé which means to lay beside. Something unknown/misunderstood is compared with something known/understood.
It might be some other figure of speech but it is not a parable.

 

[ClementofA]

Not one bit. I commented on it so that the unsuspecting are not deceived by UR twisting of scripture and sources.

Yet still ignoring this & your false erroneous remarks:

Wrong! That is NOT what BDAG says!

Yes it does. I even gave you the page number:

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

I have the digital version of BDAG 2000 and in the definition of "aionios," which I was talking about, Col 1;20 is NOT mentioned because "aionios" does not occur in that verse.

Irrelevant. Obviously aionios doesn't occur in Col.1:20. So what?

What you have done is copy/pasted something from a biased UR site which you evidently have uncritically accepted.

Wrong. I have BDAG on my shelf & copied it from there.

Here's what you've never refuted:

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

All irrelevant to my post. Neither "aion" nor "aionios" occurs in Col 1:20.
But let us look at something totally foreign to UR-ites "context."

Colossians 1:20-23
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;​

It does say "to reconcile all things to himself" BUT there are conditions which UR-ites either are not aware of or totally ignore.
Vs. 23 "If you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, ..."
If those words were not important Paul would not have written them. The converse is "If you do not continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be moved away from the hope of the gospel you will not be reconciled."

That's not what BDAG says, so you'll have to take that up with dead Danker.


"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

<ClementA said>While here in Colossians 1 we see the parallel between God creating all and reconciling all:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross...

Any heterodox group can make the scripture say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture out-of-context. Vs. 20 "to reconcile all to Himself by Him"
does this say that Jesus will reconcile all mankind to Himself, no matter what? Let us read a little bit more to understand the full context.

Colossians 1:20-23
(20) and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
(21) Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
(22) But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
(23) if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Jesus came "to reconcile all, for the purpose of reconciling all, to Himself"" but there is a condition "if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel."If someone does not continue in the faith and moves from the hope held out in the gospel" there is no reconciliation.

The context shows that verses 21-23 are a different topic from verses 16-20 in which the parallel of verses 16 & 20 occur. In v.21-23 the subject is not all creation as in v.16,20, but
instead the Colossians, the saints. Paul says they will be presented "holy in His sight" (v.22) if they continue in the faith, clearly a reference to a specific time, the time when they
meet the Lord, which for these saints would have been when they died, & for others when He returns. So v.22-23 refer to a time no later than the second coming & tell us nothing about
reconciliation possibilities for "all" beyond that time. So verses 22-23 in no way limit the parallel of verses 16 & 20 from being a future universal reconciliation of created beings
in the ages to come after the Lord's return, such as in the millennial age or in the ages of the new heavens & new earth. Nowhere does Paul say of those who don't continue in the faith
that they are excluded from the "all" of verse 20. Therefore your specious argument fails.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same
reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Read more: What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus came "to reconcile all, for the purpose of reconciling all, to Himself

In that case all the dead of OT times & all fallen angels are included. So there is still hope for them.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross" (Col.1:20), how can God let anyone end up being tortured forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins
against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"ἀποκαταλλάσσω is found in the NT only in Col. and Eph., where καταλλάσσω does not occur. Since it is never found prior to Paul, it is perhaps coined by him....In men [it] is
preceded by alienation and enmity (Col.1:22)...Col.1:20 speaks of the gracious purpose which God had demonstrated...to reconcile the whole world to Himself; it does not speak of a reconciliation of the world already concluded. ἀποκαταλλάξαι cannot refer merely to the removal of a relationship of guilt by God, since it is plainly expounded as a conclusion of peace in Col.1:20 and Eph.2:15. Hence it is not something one-sided. It embraces the total life situation of man. It does not refer merely to his guilt before God. In Eph.2:16 reconciliation to God also brings reconciliation to Jews and Gentiles, and in Col.1:20 the reconciliation of men to God also carries with it that of supraterrestrial beings" (The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Vol.1, p.258-259, Friedrich Buschel, ed. Gerhard Kittel, 1st printing 1964, 2006).

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).


"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if
we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular
demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-7138/

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

 

[FineLinen]

So you are trying to validate your theology by using Grammar.

Have you trotted over to got questions yet to find out the scope of a synecdoche & a metonymy yet?

 

[mkgal1]

I can agree that Hades is a real place.

The Gates of Hades (about 3 minutes):

As one commenter summarized: "Upon this Rock of Revelation knowledge that I Am the Son of God, I will build My church”. Against this pagan monolith My church will prevail, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

Another post from the comment section: "That bedrock cliff, the huge rock, is the base of Mount Hermon... where the 200 fallen angels came down, in rebellion to God the Father, and took an oath amongst themselves... the original WWG1WGA. Jesus was reclaiming that area back for the Kingdom of God.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Very interesting, thank you.

The Rich Man is in Hades suffering in a flame. There is only one other passage in Scripture that has fire in Hades.

21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1

If Jesus is indeed alluding to this passage in Deuteronomy, then is the purpose of the Rich man's suffering not also disclosed here, which is to move the priesthood to anger and jealousy towards Jesus for his reward/ inheritance and prompt introspection into their own foolish way of life?

That to me would be consistent with a number of other scriptures whereby God uses jealousy to bring Israel to repentance, perhaps most notably Romans:

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. (Rom 11:13-14)

This is also the case where Jesus begins his ministry at the Nazarene Synagogue, suggesting that the Jews have missed the boat and God's favour/ grace will instead be given to the gentiles, in response to which they try to throw him off a cliff.

"And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian." And all the people in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; (Lk 4:27-28)

So, provoked to jealousy and rage in order that they might see their errors, the overarching purpose to be:

so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (Jn 20:31)

So the sufferings of the Rich Man are self-inflicted, the sins of pride/ arrogance, hypocrisy and wilful blindness, and those sins earn God's wrath, which provoke him to jealousy and rage at what he interprets as gross injustice at the beggars, hookers and tax men entering heaven before him. And, more importantly, his torments are instructive, corrective, and ultimately produce repentance and humility, the conversion to Christ.

So I don't see this parable as containing any special insights into the antechamber of Hades, but rather a colorful and provocative illustration of Jesus' 'usual' teachings. If I'm hearing you right, I think you'd concur?