THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[LoveGodsWord]

Evidently, like your SDA sister, you didn't even read my post. Your erroneous false statement here proves that.



My posts in this thread have already done so, such as:



Maybe you can attempt an answer at the following post of mine that your - SDA - sister refused to even read, let alone respond to or refute:



Get some rest, refreshed & return if the Lord wills.

Then maybe you'll want to address the post you said you didn't read:



Do you also find it funny that for all your long worded posts---still not one scripture that says anyone DOES NOT come out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jeus.

And why should Love Almighty be required to use your exact words revealing salvation to those in the LOF when He has already done so in many different ways. It's a ridiculous requirement, as if not being able to provide those exact words somehow defeats universalism. Nonsense. And in the above paragraph i turned it around on you, using your own words against your own argument. Lol, eh?



Easy to say. But can you prove it?



Thus sayeth you. Where is the Scripture that says "God has us go through our refining fires in this life---not after death."



Nonsense. There is a need to be saved now. Torments in the lake of fire await the wicked.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.



Scripture? Or opinion?



Outside the gates means outside the gates. Not what you added to the words of God.



Not till they're washed clean. Just like anyone inside.



When we are told the wicked are outside the New Jerusalem, that does not mean they have recieved an endless Hitler nuking of them into unending oblivion after they were tormented to death in the fiery lake. Rather it means they are still there, alive.



I never read that verse in the Bible "For God will have destroiyed all that in the lake of fire." Where is that, in John's nonexistent Revelation Part II?



Why you can not understand that when sin dies, all death dies and Love Omnipotent becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28), i.e. universalism happens.



mmksparbud's chapter 6 verse 66 or John's nonexistent Revelation Part II?




Scripture says there - are - wicked outside the city. So you should understand Rev.21:4 to be referring to what occurs within the New Jerusalem only, where God's people shall be, which is what the immediate context is talking about.

Rev.22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.



Death in the Scriptures can refer to when a person's body dies, such as when Jesus died & was thereafter put in a tomb. It can also refer to death figuratively, or spiritual death, such as when Jesus says "Let the dead bury the dead". So, probably, the "second death" refers to one or both of those types of death, & the power they have. In any case, since death will be abolished & God become "all in all", as Scripture states in 1 Cor.15:22-28, we have good reason to believe that no one will remain in death forever, whether it's death or second death.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.



Everyone will eventually have "life":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”



After people are judged & cast into the lake of fire (LOF) there will be a new heavens & earth (Rev.20, 21). The dwelling place of God's people will be the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:2-3) & therein - there - will be no more death or pain. Yet death will remain & not be abolished in the lake of fire, for torments there will continue "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.14:11; 20:10). At the same time, "into the ages of the ages", the saints will reign (Rev.21:5). Who would they be reigning over if no one exists in the LOF? How could pain be no more everywhere while the wicked are still being tormented in the LOF at the same time the Scriptures say the saints are reigning? How could death be abolished everywhere while the second death still continues? Impossible. Neither could Love Omnipotent be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while any of the wicked are still wicked and in pain being tormented.

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).
God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

For further reading, here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

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Sure I read it. Where is the scripture that says that the wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming. You did not provide any or did you answer my questions asked you. Most of your post is simply what you have cut and pasted from some website all through this thread.

 

[ClementofA]

Sure I read it. Where is the scripture that says that the wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming. You did not provide any or did you answer my questions asked you. Most of your post is simply what you have cut and pasted from some website all through this thread.

You said: "Most of your post is simply what you have cut and pasted from some website all through this thread."

Show me one word in my post that was "cut and pasted from some website":

Your just cutting and pasting the same website content over and over. Which scripture have you provided that says that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming? - Yep none.

Evidently, like your SDA sister, you didn't even read my post. Your erroneous false statement here proves that.

Happy to if you can show me a single scripture that says that the wicked will be saved after the second coming?

My posts in this thread have already done so, such as:

What I truly find amazing is that here we still are 66 pages latter and no one has provided a single scripture that says that the wicked will be saved and have eternal life after the second coming.

All these claims of second chances from the gambling lady of confusion are no where to be found in the scriptures. Yet this is what the false teachings of UNIVERSALISM teaches. This is dispite the Word of God teaching that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming. Maybe I will check back latter or every now and then to see and anyone is able to provide a single scripture to show that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming.

God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word). May those who have eyes to see and hears to hear be blessed.

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word to know His truth

Maybe you can attempt an answer at the following post of mine that your - SDA - sister refused to even read, let alone respond to or refute:

OK---You really are not reading what I post so I think this is over---I answered your question and you posted the answer and then ask me the same question again!!! Go back and read what I posted. I am done.

Get some rest, refreshed & return if the Lord wills.

Then maybe you'll want to address the post you said you didn't read:

I find it funny that for all your long worded posts---still not one scripoture that says anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jeus.

Do you also find it funny that for all your long worded posts---still not one scripture that says anyone DOES NOT come out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jeus.

And why should Love Almighty be required to use your exact words revealing salvation to those in the LOF when He has already done so in many different ways. It's a ridiculous requirement, as if not being able to provide those exact words somehow defeats universalism. Nonsense. And in the above paragraph i turned it around on you, using your own words against your own argument. Lol, eh?

None of your verses prove your theory.

Easy to say. But can you prove it?

God has us go through our refining fires in this life---not after death.

Thus sayeth you. Where is the Scripture that says "God has us go through our refining fires in this life---not after death."

Otherwise there is no need of Jesus to save us for everyone will be saved by the fire not by choosing Him while we are on this earth.

Nonsense. There is a need to be saved now. Torments in the lake of fire await the wicked.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

The gates of the city are closed---as it comes down---as protection against the wicked that have all assembled to come to take it by force.

Scripture? Or opinion?

That outside the gates are the wicked just means that those will never come in.

Outside the gates means outside the gates. Not what you added to the words of God.

Nothing wicked, nothing that abhors God will ever come into the city.

Not till they're washed clean. Just like anyone inside.

It does not mean that outside the city still there is sin and death and wickedness.

When we are told the wicked are outside the New Jerusalem, that does not mean they have recieved an endless Hitler nuking of them into unending oblivion after they were tormented to death in the fiery lake. Rather it means they are still there, alive.

For God will have destroiyed all that in the lake of fire.

I never read that verse in the Bible "For God will have destroiyed all that in the lake of fire." Where is that, in John's nonexistent Revelation Part II?

Why you can not understand that when sin dies, all death dies for sin brings death.

Why you can not understand that when sin dies, all death dies and Love Omnipotent becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28), i.e. universalism happens.

All sin--and death--is destroyed in the lake of fire and nothing remians but ashes over which the New Earth is created.

mmksparbud's chapter 6 verse 66 or John's nonexistent Revelation Part II?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,

If there were wicked outside the city---there would still be sin, death, crying, all is destroyed in the lake of fire once and for all.

Scripture says there - are - wicked outside the city. So you should understand Rev.21:4 to be referring to what occurs within the New Jerusalem only, where God's people shall be, which is what the immediate context is talking about.

Rev.22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

That makes absolutely no sense. Again, what your saying is the second death has no power. What power does it have?

Death in the Scriptures can refer to when a person's body dies, such as when Jesus died & was thereafter put in a tomb. It can also refer to death figuratively, or spiritual death, such as when Jesus says "Let the dead bury the dead". So, probably, the "second death" refers to one or both of those types of death, & the power they have. In any case, since death will be abolished & God become "all in all", as Scripture states in 1 Cor.15:22-28, we have good reason to believe that no one will remain in death forever, whether it's death or second death.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

And again, not everyone is written in the book of "life"

Everyone will eventually have "life":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Yes, after the lake of fire has done it's job there will be no more death.

After people are judged & cast into the lake of fire (LOF) there will be a new heavens & earth (Rev.20, 21). The dwelling place of God's people will be the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:2-3) & therein - there - will be no more death or pain. Yet death will remain & not be abolished in the lake of fire, for torments there will continue "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.14:11; 20:10). At the same time, "into the ages of the ages", the saints will reign (Rev.21:5). Who would they be reigning over if no one exists in the LOF? How could pain be no more everywhere while the wicked are still being tormented in the LOF at the same time the Scriptures say the saints are reigning? How could death be abolished everywhere while the second death still continues? Impossible. Neither could Love Omnipotent be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while any of the wicked are still wicked and in pain being tormented.

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).
God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

For further reading, here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Ok, feel free to believe that.

Well thank you for that I will.

According to this definition “aionios destruction” then means “destruction of an age”. You are killing 2 birds with 1 stone here, great work.

Your welcome.

Did you purposely ignore the verse that says they will have no rest day or night? That sounds like they are very much alive.

No I provided the context you left out. A day and a night in the scriptures *GENESIS make up a biblical day in Gods time combined with the context of the second death and G165 is αἰών; aiōn means an age. The context of time here is the second death and age here meaning, until dead (second death).

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Sorry dear agapelove but your wrong. HEBREWS 8:10-12 is taken from JEREMIAH 31:31-36 in reference to God's new covenant promise in reference to the new covenant plan of salvation and death and resurrection of JESUS. Old things have now past away behold all things are new.

Your response...

Sorry LoveGodsWord but you are wrong. The New Covenant was not inaugurated until the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Both Hebrews & Jeremiah are prophecies of the NC but when God spoke to the Israelites in Jeremiah 29:11 He was still speaking to OLD COVENANT ISRAEL who was in CAPTIVITY in BABYLON. Neither of us were present with OC Israel in Babylon but we both believe God has plans for the two of us. God does not “change up who He is” based on what WE think of Him. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. If God had plans for the Israelites to prosper, He also has plans for us to prosper, and likewise He has plans for ALL PEOPLE to prosper.

Nonsense dear friend. You are wrong, but here is why. PAUL in HEBREWS 7; HEBREWS 8 also 9 and 10 is discussing the new covenant in context to the ministration of JESUS as and the fulfillment of the shadow laws that pointed to JESUS as our great sacrifice for sin and his role as our great high Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary and applying this application of the new covenant to JEREMIAH 31:31-36 in both HEBREWS 8:10-12 and HEBREWS 10:16-22. PAUL in HEBREWS 8:13 concludes HEBREWS 8 (HEBREWS 8:10-12 quoting JEREMIAH 31:31-36) with the closing statement "In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away". *HEBREWS 8:31

You are mistaken ma’am/sir, I know God is a God of justice. In fact He is perfect Justice. The issue is that there is NO justice WHATSOEVER in eternal torment or annihilationism. There will definitely be judgment.... followed by mercy. There will definitely be punishment.... followed by reconciliation.

Yet here you still are thinking that the wicked get a free pass to Heaven which is not biblical and neither do you have any scripture to show that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming? Something to pray about for you I believe. Does it not concern you that you have no scripture for your teachings and this opinion is the opposite of what the scriptures teach from God's Word? If not it should. We need to challenge ourselves to what we believe and not be afraid to come to God's Word as it is written we are to examine oursleves to see if we are in the faith or not. God's mercy according to the scriptures are only given to those who believe and follow God's Word and accept the gift of God's grace through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. The wicked according to the scriptures are destroyed after the second coming. There is no more second chances at this time dear friend.

Blessings.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You said: "Most of your post is simply what you have cut and pasted from some website all through this thread." Show me one word in my post that was "cut and pasted from some website":

Ok...

For further reading, here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asindam.html

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

Your welcome. Now where in anything you have posted is a scripture that says that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming of JESUS? - There is none. You have been cutting that previous long post over and over which is just repetition and not a discussion. As you have not provided a single scripture in answer to the question asked you when you were asked where is the scripture that says the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming. If you do not want to answer the question I asked you just say so or if you have no scripture to answer the question I asked you then just say so and acknowledge you have no scripture. Anynow nice talking to you I need to do some real life stuff now thanks for the discussion.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Ok have to go and do some work now. Nice talking to you all. I only wish you all love joy and peace in God's amazing grace and that we all may have a closer walk with JESUS. I will check back every now and then. Thanks for the discussion @ClementofA and @agapelove

 

[agapelove]

Your welcome.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with destruction for an age and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.

No I provided the context you left out. A day and a night in the scriptures *GENESIS make up a biblical day in Gods time combined with the context of the second death and G165 is αἰών; aiōn means an age. The context of time here is the second death and age here meaning, until dead (second death).

Sounds like you’re reaching, sister/brother. I am not really here to argue for ECT so feel free to take up that argument with someone from that circle. Good luck getting them understand this train of thought.

Nonsense dear friend. You are wrong, but here is why. PAUL in HEBREWS 7; HEBREWS 8 also 9 and 10 is discussing the new covenant in context to the ministration of JESUS as and the fulfillment of the shadow laws that pointed to JESUS as our great sacrifice for sin and his role as our great high Priest in the Heavenly Sanctuary and applying this application of the new covenant to JEREMIAH 31:31-36 in both HEBREWS 8:10-12 and HEBREWS 10:16-22. PAUL in HEBREWS 8:13 concludes HEBREWS 8 (HEBREWS 8:10-12 quoting JEREMIAH 31:31-36) with the closing statement "In that he said, A new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away". *HEBREWS 8:31

WAS JESUS PRESENT WITH THE ISRAELITES IN CAPTIVITY IN BABYLON? NO. Therefore Jeremiah 29:11 is written within the context of the OLD COVENANT. I do not know why you keep bringing up Jeremiah 31 or Hebrews 8. Are we having the same conversation?

Yet here you still are thinking that the wicked get a free pass to Heaven which is not biblical and neither do you have any scripture to show that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming? Something to pray about for you I believe. Does it not concern you that you have no scripture for your teachings and this opinion is the opposite of what the scriptures teach from God's Word? If not it should. We need to challenge ourselves to what we believe and not be afraid to come to God's Word as it is written we are to examine oursleves to see if we are in the faith or not. God's mercy according to the scriptures are only given to those who believe and follow God's Word and accept the gift of God's grace through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. The wicked according to the scriptures are destroyed after the second coming. There is no more second chances at this time dear friend.

All I see here is a giant straw man. Let me know when you are ready to debate properly.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with destruction for an age and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Indeed look up the Greek word destruction.

Sounds like you’re reaching, sister/brother. I am not really here to argue for ECT so feel free to take up that argument with someone from that circle. Good luck getting them understand this train of thought.

Not really. The OP is not about ECT which I do not believe is biblical either. It is about the false teachings of UNIVERSALISM. If your confused on anything I have posted here your welcome to ask me. There is no need to post pictures or photos that are simply a distraction to a discussion. Most people only tend to do this when they want to avoid the discussion or they have no scripture for their position.

WAS JESUS PRESENT WITH THE ISRAELITES IN CAPTIVITY IN BABYLON? NO. Therefore Jeremiah 29:11 is written within the context of the OLD COVENANT. I do not know why you keep bringing up Jeremiah 31 or Hebrews 8. Are we having the same conversation?

Dont you think that JESUS was with Daniel and his friends and looked after them in BABYLON? It does indeed seem that you do not know why I am quoting HEBREWS 8:10-12 together with JEREMIAH 31:31-34. Did you read the scriptures? What scriptures do you think PAUL is quoting from the old testament in relation to the new covenant and his application to what the new covenant is talking about in HEBREWS 8:10-12? If you can honestly answer this question you will see what your posting here dear sister is simply not biblical. If you still do not know ask me after you have read these scriptures and I will be happy to share with you in more dertail but I have to go for now.

All I see here is a giant straw man. Let me know when you are ready to debate properly.

What strawman? I have not posted any. Me asking you or anyone else that believes in UNIVERSALISM for scripture that says that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming is not a strawman. It is me asking for scripture as to what UNIVERSALISM claims to believe. If you have no scripture just say so.

Ok really have to go for now chat latter

 

[FineLinen]

Indeed look up the Greek word destruction.

The uses of koine apollumi in Scripture =

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

There is no support for “eternal death” in Scripture, NONE, nada.

In fact, the One who has triumphed over death, consumes all thanantos into Himself.

And there shall be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying > > >

"The former things are done away."

Done away =

poieo = to seize lift up & take away.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The uses of koine apollumi in Scripture =

(1) ruin, (2) do not bring about his ruin, (3) put to death, the wicked tenants, (4) he will put the evildoers to death, (5) destroy the wisdom of the wise, (6) destroy the understanding, (7) lose, (8) lose the reward, (9) lose what we have worked for, (10) lose one’s life, (11) lose oneself, (12) The man who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; the one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’), (13) ruined, (14) die, the man dies, (15) As a cry of anguish, we are perishing!, (16) of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer, (17) die by the sword, (18) die of hunger, (19) be corrupted, (20) killed by the snakes, (21) those who are lost, (22) of things be lost, (23) pass away, (24) be ruined, (26) of bursting wineskins, (25) fading beauty, (26) transitory beauty of gold, (27) passing splendor, (28) Of earthly food, (29) spoiled honey, (30) Of falling hair, (31) a member or organ of the body, (32) remnants of food, (33) of wine that has lost its flavor, (34) of sheep gone astray, (35) Of a lost son [that returned].

There is no support for “eternal death” in Scripture, NONE, nada.

In fact, the One who has triumphed over death, consumes all thanantos into Himself.

And there shall be no more death, neither sorrow nor crying > > >

"The former things are done away."

Done away =

poieo = to seize lift up & take away.

Not relevant. Your mixing up different Greek word meanings not applied to the scripture contexts (rules of interpretation). Look at the meaning of "DESTRUCTION" in the KOINE in G3639: ὀλέθριος, ὀλέθριον (olethron) in 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. Get your facts right before posting dear friend. Ok bb for now. Chat more latter

 

[agapelove]

Indeed look up the Greek word destruction.

I am not sure you understand the point I am CLEARLY trying to make. You claim the second death is permanent annihilation but here in Thessalonians, one of YOUR favorite scriptures, it says the destruction will only last for an age. Explain this discrepancy you have created for yourself.

Not really. The OP is not about ECT which I do not believe is biblical either. It is about the false teachings of UNIVERSALISM. If your confused on anything I have posted here your welcome to ask me. There is no need to post pictures or photos that are simply a distraction to a discussion. Most people only tend to do this when they want to avoid the discussion or they have no scripture for their position.

Sorry that my photos and ratings are distracting for you. Yes, I am confused about 90% of the things you say. I would rather not ask you for further clarification.

Dont you think that JESUS was with Daniel and his friends and looked after them in BABYLON? It does indeed seem that you do not know why I am quoting HEBREWS 8:10-12 together with JEREMIAH 31:31-34. Did you read the scriptures? What scriptures do you think PAUL is quoting from the old testament in relation to the new covenant and his application to what the new covenant is talking about in HEBREWS 8:10-12? If you can honestly answer this question you will see what your posting here dear sister is simply not biblical. If you still do not know ask me after you have read these scriptures and I will be happy to share with you in more dertail but I have to go for now.

NO! HE WAS NOT. HE HAD NOT EVEN BEEN BORN YET. JESUS represents the NEW COVENANT and THE LAW represented the OLD COVENANT. EVERY Israelite mentioned from the book of EXODUS to MALACHI is part of the OLD COVENANT. I can’t believe I have to spell it out for you.

Since you want me to address Jeremiah 31 so badly, let’s take a look.

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the Lord.”

This is FUTURE TENSE meaning the new covenant is being promised but HAS NOT COME YET. This is basic Bible knowledge, lover of God’s word!

IN FACT. The New Covenant COULD NOT COME until Jesus’ DEATH on the CROSS. You would know this if you had kept reading Hebrews 9.

Hebrews 9:16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.

So do you really want to continue this dead end argument? I hope you see now what I have been trying to tell you all along. The Israelites in Jeremiah’s time are still OC ISRAEL.

What strawman? I have not posted any. Me asking you or anyone else that believes in UNIVERSALISM for scripture that says that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming is not a strawman. It is me asking for scripture as to what you UNIVERSALISM claims to believe. If you have no scripture just say so.

Ok really have to go for now chat latter

Your words: Yet here you still are thinking that the wicked get a free pass to Heaven.
Just the same as someone not beleiving that God is also a God of justice and judgement for sin. There will be no punishment to those who reject Gods' Word and the gift of God's dear son and trample on the blood of the covenant and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing.

Those are some aggressive assumptions, Love. I refuse to debate with people who create facetious caricatures of universalism in order to attack us unfairly. It’s unfortunate that we’ve come 68 pages and you still know absolutely NOTHING about us.

 

[mmksparbud]

NO! HE WAS NOT. HE HAD NOT EVEN BEEN BORN YET. JESUS represents the NEW COVENANT and THE LAW represented the OLD COVENANT. EVERY Israelite mentioned from the book of EXODUS to MALACHI is part of the OLD COVENANT. I can’t believe I have to spell it out for you.

Have no intent on participating in this discussion, however I did double take on this!


Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Do you also not know who Jesus is? He is called by many names---He is the Creator--He created Adam and Eve! He was there all over the OT, He gave the commandments to Moses, He is from everlasting to everlasting and was one with God and the Holy Spirit. It is the same Jesus throughout the whole entire bible.; Didn't you know that???? Apparently the only thing that interests any of the uni's is this everyone saved business and know nothing else, but then why bother---everyone is saved anyway and nothing else has any relevance! Why do you think the Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus?

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

They understood what He meant when He said---I am.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

You are free to believe whatever you want. I will not be answering any rebuttals, as I all I am doing is stating what the scriptures say and have no further interest in what uni's think about Jesus.

 

[agapelove]

Have no intent on participating in this discussion, however I did double take on this!

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Do you also not know who Jesus is? He is called by many names---He is the Creator--He created Adam and Eve! He was there all over the OT, He gave the commandments to Moses, He is from everlasting to everlasting and was one with God and the Holy Spirit. It is the same Jesus throughout the whole entire bible.; Didn't you know that???? Apparently the only thing that interests any of the uni's is this everyone saved business and know nothing else, but then why bother---everyone is saved anyway and nothing else has any relevance! Why do you think the Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus?

Joh_8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

They understood what He meant when He said---I am.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

You are free to believe whatever you want. I will not be answering any rebuttals, as I all I am doing is stating what the scriptures say and have no further interest in what uni's think about Jesus.

Ma’am before you force your way into this conversation why don’t you wrap up our own debate. I am still awaiting a response from you for post #1263 and #1294.

I know very well who Jesus is. I am not talking about the existence of Jesus, I am talking about the existence of the NEW COVENANT, in case you could not tell from the context of our debate.

OBVIOUSLY Jesus existed during the Mosaic Covenant that is not something I needed your help to confirm. Does that mean the New Covenant existed concurrently with the Mosaic Covenant? It did not exist until Jesus was BORN, CRUCIFIED, and RESURRECTED IN THE FLESH.

Please show me scripture that says Jesus was with the Israelites in Babylon in the flesh or let alone any scripture of anyone pre-Gospels knowing the name “JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH.” Let me know what you find.

 

[ClementofA]

Ok...

[LoveGodsWord posted links at the end of my post]

Links at the end of my post for further reading don't qualify as something in my post "cut and pasted from some website". Do you not understand that?

So again i'll ask:

Show me one word in my post that was "cut and pasted from some website":

Sure I read it. Where is the scripture that says that the wicked will receive eternal life after the second coming. You did not provide any or did you answer my questions asked you. Most of your post is simply what you have cut and pasted from some website all through this thread.

You said: "Most of your post is simply what you have cut and pasted from some website all through this thread."

Show me one word in my post that was "cut and pasted from some website":

Your just cutting and pasting the same website content over and over. Which scripture have you provided that says that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming? - Yep none.

Evidently, like your SDA sister, you didn't even read my post. Your erroneous false statement here proves that.

Happy to if you can show me a single scripture that says that the wicked will be saved after the second coming?

My posts in this thread have already done so, such as:

What I truly find amazing is that here we still are 66 pages latter and no one has provided a single scripture that says that the wicked will be saved and have eternal life after the second coming.

All these claims of second chances from the gambling lady of confusion are no where to be found in the scriptures. Yet this is what the false teachings of UNIVERSALISM teaches. This is dispite the Word of God teaching that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming. Maybe I will check back latter or every now and then to see and anyone is able to provide a single scripture to show that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming.

God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word). May those who have eyes to see and hears to hear be blessed.

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word to know His truth

Maybe you can attempt an answer at the following post of mine that your - SDA - sister refused to even read, let alone respond to or refute:

OK---You really are not reading what I post so I think this is over---I answered your question and you posted the answer and then ask me the same question again!!! Go back and read what I posted. I am done.

Get some rest, refreshed & return if the Lord wills.

Then maybe you'll want to address the post you said you didn't read:

I find it funny that for all your long worded posts---still not one scripoture that says anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jeus.

Do you also find it funny that for all your long worded posts---still not one scripture that says anyone DOES NOT come out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Jeus.

And why should Love Almighty be required to use your exact words revealing salvation to those in the LOF when He has already done so in many different ways. It's a ridiculous requirement, as if not being able to provide those exact words somehow defeats universalism. Nonsense. And in the above paragraph i turned it around on you, using your own words against your own argument. Lol, eh?

None of your verses prove your theory.

Easy to say. But can you prove it?

God has us go through our refining fires in this life---not after death.

Thus sayeth you. Where is the Scripture that says "God has us go through our refining fires in this life---not after death."

Otherwise there is no need of Jesus to save us for everyone will be saved by the fire not by choosing Him while we are on this earth.

Nonsense. There is a need to be saved now. Torments in the lake of fire await the wicked.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death.

Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

The gates of the city are closed---as it comes down---as protection against the wicked that have all assembled to come to take it by force.

Scripture? Or opinion?

That outside the gates are the wicked just means that those will never come in.

Outside the gates means outside the gates. Not what you added to the words of God.

Nothing wicked, nothing that abhors God will ever come into the city.

Not till they're washed clean. Just like anyone inside.

It does not mean that outside the city still there is sin and death and wickedness.

When we are told the wicked are outside the New Jerusalem, that does not mean they have recieved an endless Hitler nuking of them into unending oblivion after they were tormented to death in the fiery lake. Rather it means they are still there, alive.

For God will have destroiyed all that in the lake of fire.

I never read that verse in the Bible "For God will have destroiyed all that in the lake of fire." Where is that, in John's nonexistent Revelation Part II?

Why you can not understand that when sin dies, all death dies for sin brings death.

Why you can not understand that when sin dies, all death dies and Love Omnipotent becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28), i.e. universalism happens.

All sin--and death--is destroyed in the lake of fire and nothing remians but ashes over which the New Earth is created.

mmksparbud's chapter 6 verse 66 or John's nonexistent Revelation Part II?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,

If there were wicked outside the city---there would still be sin, death, crying, all is destroyed in the lake of fire once and for all.

Scripture says there - are - wicked outside the city. So you should understand Rev.21:4 to be referring to what occurs within the New Jerusalem only, where God's people shall be, which is what the immediate context is talking about.

Rev.22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by its gates. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

That makes absolutely no sense. Again, what your saying is the second death has no power. What power does it have?

Death in the Scriptures can refer to when a person's body dies, such as when Jesus died & was thereafter put in a tomb. It can also refer to death figuratively, or spiritual death, such as when Jesus says "Let the dead bury the dead". So, probably, the "second death" refers to one or both of those types of death, & the power they have. In any case, since death will be abolished & God become "all in all", as Scripture states in 1 Cor.15:22-28, we have good reason to believe that no one will remain in death forever, whether it's death or second death.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

And again, not everyone is written in the book of "life"

Everyone will eventually have "life":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Yes, after the lake of fire has done it's job there will be no more death.

After people are judged & cast into the lake of fire (LOF) there will be a new heavens & earth (Rev.20, 21). The dwelling place of God's people will be the New Jerusalem (Rev.21:2-3) & therein - there - will be no more death or pain. Yet death will remain & not be abolished in the lake of fire, for torments there will continue "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.14:11; 20:10). At the same time, "into the ages of the ages", the saints will reign (Rev.21:5). Who would they be reigning over if no one exists in the LOF? How could pain be no more everywhere while the wicked are still being tormented in the LOF at the same time the Scriptures say the saints are reigning? How could death be abolished everywhere while the second death still continues? Impossible. Neither could Love Omnipotent be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while any of the wicked are still wicked and in pain being tormented.

1 Cor.15:22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified." 23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;" 24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power." 25 For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)" (CLV)

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

9 And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10 he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up into the ages of ages, and they have no respite day and night who do homage to the beast and to its image, and if any one receive the mark of its name. (Rev.14:9-11)

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Rev.19:20)

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- into the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10)

3No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither is God yet "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor is death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished yet.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).
God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing?

Eventually God will be making all new (Rev.21:5) & will be "in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

The abolishing of death means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

For further reading, here is an interesting article on the subject:

http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd1/asinadam.html

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[mmksparbud]

Ma’am before you force your way into this conversation why don’t you wrap up our own debate. I am still awaiting a response from you for post #1263 and #1294.

I know very well who Jesus is. I am not talking about the existence of Jesus, I am talking about the existence of the NEW COVENANT, in case you could not tell from the context of our debate.

OBVIOUSLY Jesus existed during the Mosaic Covenant that is not something I needed your help to confirm. Does that mean the New Covenant existed concurrently with the Mosaic Covenant? It did not exist until Jesus was BORN, CRUCIFIED, and RESURRECTED IN THE FLESH.

Please show me scripture that says Jesus was with the Israelites in Babylon in the flesh or let alone any scripture of anyone pre-Gospels knowing the name “JESUS CHRIST OF NAZARETH.” Let me know what you find.

I quite debating here due to the unethical way you people like to take what I and others say and then proceed to change the words completely to say something we never said! It is quite simply lying and I have no wish to continue with you guys. Once again, even with this post you change what I said---I never said the word Jesus was used in the OT, but that Jesus existed throughout the OT. I clearly said Jesus has many names. And I have no doubt you will also not believe that Michael---in the Babylonian exile---was Jesus. And no, Jesus was never any angel---Michael the archangel is a title that He held. And with that, I am unwatching this thread.

 

[agapelove]

I quite debating here due to the unethical way you people like to take what I and others say and then proceed to change the words completely to say something we never said! It is quite simply lying and I have no wish to continue with you guys. Once again, even with this post you change what I said---I never said the word Jesus was used in the OT, but that Jesus existed throughout the OT. I clearly said Jesus has many names. And I have no doubt you will also not believe that Michael---in the Babylonian exile---was Jesus. And no, Jesus was never any angel---Michael the archangel is a title that He held. And with that, I am unwatching this thread.

Bye bye!

 

[ClementofA]

Do you also not know who Jesus is? He is called by many names---He is the Creator--He created Adam and Eve! He was there all over the OT, He gave the commandments to Moses, He is from everlasting to everlasting and was one with God and the Holy Spirit. It is the same Jesus throughout the whole entire bible.; Didn't you know that????

I'm quite aware of that. Aren't these among the first things a new Christian learns? Why would you think anyone here doesn't know such? Why even make such remarks? What do they have to do with the topic?

Apparently the only thing that interests any of the uni's is this everyone saved business and know nothing else,

What evidence do you have of that?

However, as far as this particular thread is concerned, that is the topic.

but then why bother---everyone is saved anyway

No, everyone is not saved.

and nothing else has any relevance!

So you're saying if there is no endless punishment, then you would not follow Jesus because then "nothing...has any relevance"?


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[Shrewd Manager]

What I truly find amazing is that here we still are 66 pages latter and no one has provided a single scripture that says that the wicked will be saved and have eternal life after the second coming.

All these claims of second chances from the gambling lady of confusion are no where to be found in the scriptures. Yet this is what the false teachings of UNIVERSALISM teaches. This is dispite the Word of God teaching that the wicked will be destroyed at the second coming. Maybe I will check back latter or every now and then to see if anyone is able to provide a single scripture to show that the wicked receive eternal life after the second coming.

God's sheep hear His Voice (the Word). May those who have eyes to see and ears to hear be blessed.

May God bless you all as you seek him through his Word to know His truth

Welcome back brother. And on page 66 as well (the number of a man!). God moveth with delightful timing!

[Edit: I just read some reference suggesting you may be female (I think the odds are slim based on the tone of your prose, but I could be wrong) - can't tell with all that armour, do please confirm for the record.]

 

[FineLinen]

Not relevant. Your mixing up different Greek word meanings not applied to the scripture contexts (rules of interpretation). Look at the meaning of "DESTRUCTION" in the KOINE in G3639: ὀλέθριος, ὀλέθριον (olethron) in 2 THESSALONIANS 1:9. Get your facts right before posting dear friend. Ok bb for now. Chat more latter

The most powerful word for destruction is apolummi. The various scenarios in application to it are precisely as enermerated!

Everlasting destruction = olethron aionion

Dr. Marvin Vincent

olethron aionion in 2Th. 1:9:

‘Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. Aristotle (peri ouravou, i. 9,15) says: “The period which includes the whole time of one’s life is called the aeon of each one.” Hence it often means the life of a man, as in Homer, where one’s life (aion) is said to leave him or to consume away (Iliad v. 685; Odyssey v. 160). It is not, however, limited to human life; it signifies any period in the course of events, as the period or age before Christ; the period of the millenium; the mythological period before the beginnings of history. The word has not “a stationary and mechanical value” (De Quincey). It does not mean a period of a fixed length for all cases. There are as many aeons as entities, the respective durations of which are fixed by the normal conditions of the several entities.

There is one aeon of a human life, another of the life of a nation, another of a crow’s life, another of an oak’s life. The length of the aeon depends on the subject to which it is attached.

It is sometimes translated world; world represents a period or a series of periods of time. See Matt 12:32; 13:40,49; Luke 1:70; 1 Cor 1:20; 2:6; Eph 1:21. Similarly oi aiones, the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Cor 2:7; 10:11; Heb 1:2; 9:26; 11:3. The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity.

It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come.

It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to aei is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, aei does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (aei) liars (Tit. 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Cor. 4:11; 6:10; Heb 3:10; 1 Pet. 3:15. Aei means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject’s life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. “The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.”

In the New Testament the history of the world is conceived as developed through a succession of aeons. A series of such aeons precedes the introduction of a new series inaugurated by the Christian dispensation, and the end of the world and the second coming of Christ are to mark the beginning of another series. Eph. 1:21; 2:7; 3:9,21; 1 Cor 10:11; compare Heb. 9:26. He includes the series of aeons in one great aeon, ‘o aion ton aionon, the aeon of the aeons (Eph. 3:21); and the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews describe the throne of God as enduring unto the aeon of the aeons (Heb 1:8). The plural is also used, aeons of the aeons, signifying all the successive periods which make up the sum total of the ages collectively. Rom. 16:27; Gal. 1:5; Philip. 4:20, etc. This plural phrase is applied by Paul to God only.

The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting.

They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, aidios, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jude 6. Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17.

Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material cannot carry in themselves the sense of endlessness. Even when applied to God, we are not forced to render aionios everlasting.

Of course the life of God is endless; but the question is whether, in describing God as aionios, it was intended to describe the duration of his being, or whether some different and larger idea was not contemplated. That God lives longer then men, and lives on everlastingly, and has lived everlastingly, are, no doubt, great and significant facts; yet they are not the dominant or the most impressive facts in God’s relations to time.

God’s eternity does not stand merely or chiefly for a scale of length. It is not primarily a mathematical but a moral fact. The relations of God to time include and imply far more than the bare fact of endless continuance. They carry with them the fact that God transcends time; works on different principles and on a vaster scale than the wisdom of time provides; oversteps the conditions and the motives of time; marshals the successive aeons from a point outside of time, on lines which run out into his own measureless cycles, and for sublime moral ends which the creature of threescore and ten years cannot grasp and does not even suspect.

There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded.

That aiodios occurs rarely in the New Testament and in LXX does not prove that its place was taken by aionios. It rather goes to show that less importance was attached to the bare idea of everlastingness than later theological thought has given it. Paul uses the word once, in Rom. 1:20, where he speaks of “the everlasting power and divinity of God.” In Rom. 16:26 he speaks of the eternal God (tou aioniou theou); but that he does not mean the everlasting God is perfectly clear from the context. He has said that “the mystery” has been kept in silence in times eternal (chronois aioniois), by which he does not mean everlasting times, but the successive aeons which elapsed before Christ was proclaimed. God therefore is described as the God of the aeons, the God who pervaded and controlled those periods before the incarnation. To the same effect is the title ‘o basileus ton aionon, the King of the aeons, applied to God in 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 15:3; compare Tob. 13:6, 10.

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before everlasting times. To say that God bestowed grace on men, or promised them eternal life before endless times, would be absurd. The meaning is of old, as Luke 1:70. The grace and the promise were given in time, but far back in the ages, before the times of reckoning the aeons.

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios. Kolasis aionios, rendered everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46), is the punishment peculiar to an aeon other then that in which Christ is speaking. In some cases zoe aionios does not refer specifically to the life beyond time, but rather to the aeon or dispensation of Messiah which succeeds the legal dispensation. See Matt. 19:16; John 5:39. John says that zoe aionios is the present possession of those who believe on the Son of God, John 3:36; 5:24; 6:47,54. The Father’s commandment is zoe aionios, John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. John 17:3.

Bishop Westcott very justly says, commenting upon the terms used by John to describe life under different aspects: “In considering these phrases it is necessary to premise that in spiritual things we must guard against all conclusions which rest upon the notions of succession and duration. ‘Eternal life’ is that which St. Paul speaks of as ‘e outos Zoe the life which is life indeed, and ‘e zoe tou theou, the life of God. It is not an endless duration of being in time, but being of which time is not a measure. We have indeed no powers to grasp the idea except through forms and images of sense. These must be used, but we must not transfer them as realities to another order.”

Thus, while aionios carries the idea of time, though not of endlessness, there belongs to it also, more or less, a sense of quality. Its character is ethical rather than mathematical.

The deepest significance of the life beyond time lies, not in endlessness, but in the moral quality of the aeon into which the life passes. It is comparatively unimportant whether or not the rich fool, when his soul was required of him (Luke 12:20), entered upon a state that was endless. The principal, the tremendous fact, as Christ unmistakably puts it, was that, in the new aeon, the motives, the aims, the conditions, the successes and awards of time counted for nothing. In time, his barns and their contents were everything; the soul was nothing. In the new life the soul was first and everything, and the barns and storehouses nothing. The bliss of the sanctified does not consist primarily in its endlessness, but in the nobler moral conditions of the new aeon, the years of the holy and eternal God. Duration is a secondary idea. When it enters it enters as an accompaniment and outgrowth of moral conditions.

In the present passage it is urged that olethron destruction points to an unchangeable, irremediable, and endless condition.

If this be true, if olethros is extinction, then the passage teaches the annihilation of the wicked, in which case the adjective aionios is superfluous, since extinction is final, and excludes the idea of duration. But olethros does not always mean destruction or extinction. Take the kindred verb apollumi to destroy, put an end to, or in the middle voice, to be lost, to perish. Peter says “the world being deluged with water, perished (apoleto, 2 Pet. 3:6); but the world did not become extinct, it was renewed. In Heb. 1:11,12, quoted from Ps. 102, we read concerning the heavens and the earth as compared with the eternity of God, “they shall perish” (apolountai). But the perishing is only preparatory to change and renewal. “They shall be changed” (allagesontai). Compare Isa. 51:6,16; 65:22; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 21:1. Similarly, “the Son of man came to save that which was lost” (apololos), Luke 19:10. Jesus charged his apostles to go to the lost (apololota) sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 10:6, compare 15:24, “He that shall lose (apolese) his life for my sake shall find it,” Matt. 16:25. Compare Luke 15:6,9,32.

In this passage, the word destruction is qualified.

It is “destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power,” at his second coming, in the new aeon. In other words, it is the severance, at a given point of time, of those who obey not the gospel from the presence and the glory of Christ. Aionios may therefore describe this severance as continuing during the millenial aeon between Christ’s coming and the final judgment; as being for the wicked prolonged throughout that aeon and characteristic of it, or it may describe the severance as characterising or enduring through a period or aeon succeeding the final judgment, the extent of which period is not defined. In neither case is aionios, to be interpreted as everlasting or endless.

If we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5). Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

Also, if we cross-reference olethros with 1Co. 5:5, with its derivative olothrūo in He. 11:28, we will see that utter annihilation does not fit. For example, take the extermination of the “first-born” of Egypt (He. 11:28): Were all these innocent babies utterly annihilated before God? Also, though Satan destroys the flesh of the saved, we know God restores it in the resurrection (1Co. 5:5).

Even were God to utterly annihilate someone, has He not the power to restore (De. 32:39; 1Sa. 2:6; Mt. 3:9)?

 

[agapelove]

Be careful leaving prayer ratings under my posts @Shrewd Manager that is considered goading by the TOS.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Be careful leaving prayer ratings under my posts @Shrewd Manager that is considered goading by the TOS.

Like pouring burning coals on heads.

Pray for we who are poor in patience, dear Agapelove.