20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

[Marilyn C]

God's elect.
God's elect.
God's elect.

Two are God`s elect. And can you name the three?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Although rather long, I did appreciate your comments. Yes, I agree that it is by the Holy Spirit that anyone can be `born again.`

However you have not addressed the difference I noted in my response as to the OT saints who worked righteousness, (Heb. 11:33) against nations, whereas the Body of Christ`s warfare is spiritual. (2 Cor. 10: 3 -6)

Care to comment on that point?

I honestly do not understand your argument. It doesn't make sense. OT and NT work righteousness. But neither are justified by the same. This has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual warfare.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Two are God`s elect. And can you name the three?

I did!

 

[Marilyn C]

I did!

1. Who will rule with Christ on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)
2. Who are those that rule in the city which comes down from that realm? (Rev. 22: 5)
3. Who are the nations of the saved on the New earth? (Rev. 21: 24)

1. Christ`s own Throne. The elect - the Body of Christ. (Rev. 3: 21, Col. 3: 12)
2. The City coming down. The elect - Israel. (Is. 42: 1, 45: 4)

 

[Marilyn C]

I honestly do not understand your argument. It doesn't make sense. OT and NT work righteousness. But neither are justified by the same. This has absolutely nothing to do with spiritual warfare.

I think we have moved from the original discussion. My point was to bring out the difference between the OT saints and the Body of Christ.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I think we have moved from the original discussion. My point was to bring out the difference between the OT saints and the Body of Christ.

Are you suggesting that the OT saints were saved by righteous works?

 

[Marilyn C]

Are you suggesting that the OT saints were saved by righteous works?

We are all `saved,` by the Holy Spirit because of Jesus` sacrifice.

The OT saints believed, had faith in God and for what He promised - a city whose builder and maker is God. (Heb. 11: 10 & 13) The proof was that they `worked righteousness.`(Heb. 11: 33)

The Body of Christ believe, have faith in that Jesus is their Lord and Saviour, and look for the promise of being made like Him and ruling with Him on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) The proof being led by the Spirit and showing for the fruit of the Spirit. (Gal. 5: 16 & 22 - 26)

 

[BABerean2]

Nothing to do with `race,` and all to do with God`s purposes through Christ. God the Father desires that all come under Christ`s rule in every realm. God made each realm in His great kingdom and He has people`s that will rule with Him in each of those realms.

So who are those -

1. Who will rule with Christ on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21)
2. Who are those that rule in the city which comes down from that realm? (Rev. 22: 5)
3. Who are the nations of the saved on the New earth? (Rev. 21: 24)

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

.

 

[Blade]

"figurative and obscure book in the Bible." you from the start said this.

And I expected to keep saying something yet.. that didn't happen until page 5. I then read you saying "you were taught that". Not a wise answer. It can be flipped so easy. I've seen this used a few times. But when they were gathered together.. each treated the other with great respect.

That being said there are many views on this three of which I can think of. Even Rabbis have different views on this.. age to come. That right there.. age to come. One does not even have to touch Rev 20 yet. You gave a great personal view. Thank you

 

[Marilyn C]

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

.

Yes, one fold, all in God`s Great Kingdom, all under the rule of Christ.

Now in that `one fold,` all God`s children, He has delegated rulership positions for some - on the earth, in the city and with Christ on His own throne.

 

[jgr]

Interesting post there bro. Yes I do believe that the OT saints will be like the Lord in some degree. Yet there are differences between them and the Body of Christ though.

The Body of Christ has a `greater dominion` inheritance, (third heaven) and also will be functioning as KingPriests, whereas the OT saints will be servants reigning under the authority of the Lord in the city. (Rev. 22: 3 - 5)

There are no discernible differences in the Scriptures I cited.

Revelation 22
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

God's servants serve and reign in proximity to the throne. The throne is in heaven (Revelation 4:2; 16:7).

Where do you see these servants being restricted to only the OT saints?

 

[Marilyn C]

There are no discernible differences in the Scriptures I cited.

Revelation 22
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

God's servants serve and reign in proximity to the throne. The throne is in heaven (Revelation 4:2; 16:7).

Where do you see these servants being restricted to only the OT saints?

Actually that `throne,` in the city, denotes authority and power of God the Father and the Lamb. It does NOT mean that their seat of power and authority is in the city, for that is in the highest realm.

Note when the city comes down, it comes down FROM God. God is there by His Holy Spirit but He does NOT move His eternal throne. God`s eternal throne is actually beyond the created order and the Son`s own throne, power and authority is visible in the highest realm of creation.

 

[jgr]

Actually that `throne,` in the city, denotes authority and power of God the Father and the Lamb. It does NOT mean that their seat of power and authority is in the city, for that is in the highest realm.

Note when the city comes down, it comes down FROM God. God is there by His Holy Spirit but He does NOT move His eternal throne. God`s eternal throne is actually beyond the created order and the Son`s own throne, power and authority is visible in the highest realm of creation.

The original topic demonstrated that God's Chosen People are determined by the spiritual DNA of faith and obedience, exclusively.

Does Revelation confirm that?

 

[jgr]

2. The City coming down. The elect - Israel. (Is. 42: 1, 45: 4)

The faithful and obedient elect within Israel (Is. 42: 1, 45: 4).

 

[sovereigngrace]

We are all `saved,` by the Holy Spirit because of Jesus` sacrifice.

The OT saints believed, had faith in God and for what He promised - a city whose builder and maker is God. (Heb. 11: 10 & 13) The proof was that they `worked righteousness.`(Heb. 11: 33)

The Body of Christ believe, have faith in that Jesus is their Lord and Saviour, and look for the promise of being made like Him and ruling with Him on His own throne. (Rev. 3: 21) The proof being led by the Spirit and showing for the fruit of the Spirit. (Gal. 5: 16 & 22 - 26)

No difference, apart from the vantage point. Same salvation. Same Gospel. Same Savior.

 

[sovereigngrace]

"figurative and obscure book in the Bible." you from the start said this.

And I expected to keep saying something yet.. that didn't happen until page 5. I then read you saying "you were taught that". Not a wise answer. It can be flipped so easy. I've seen this used a few times. But when they were gathered together.. each treated the other with great respect.

That being said there are many views on this three of which I can think of. Even Rabbis have different views on this.. age to come. That right there.. age to come. One does not even have to touch Rev 20 yet. You gave a great personal view. Thank you

Who cares what the apostate "Rabbis" think! It is the truth that matters!

 

[Marilyn C]

The original topic demonstrated that God's Chosen People are determined by the spiritual DNA of faith and obedience, exclusively.

Does Revelation confirm that?

Yes.

 

[Marilyn C]

The faithful and obedient elect within Israel (Is. 42: 1, 45: 4).

Great we both agree. Now what about -

1. Christ`s own Throne. The elect - the Body of Christ. (Rev. 3: 21, Col. 3: 12)

 

[Marilyn C]

No difference, apart from the vantage point. Same salvation. Same Gospel. Same Savior.

Now the word `gospel` means good news. And the OT saints had part of the `good news` and we, the Body of Christ have further revelation of God`s `good news.`

Same salvation, some understanding, to the whole counsel of God (as the apostle Paul said), same Saviour and Lord, and all in God`s great kingdom, and then delegated rulership in different realms.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Now the word `gospel` means good news. And the OT saints had part of the `good news` and we, the Body of Christ have further revelation of God`s `good news.`

Same salvation, some understanding, to the whole counsel of God (as the apostle Paul said), same Saviour and Lord, and all in God`s great kingdom, and then delegated rulership in different realms.

It is hard debating with you, because every time your statements are shown to be biblically wrong, you move unto another subject as if your arguments are valid. The fact is: Dispensationalism is wrong. It constantly contradicts the Word of God.

The Old Testament Scriptures predicted the Messiah from the Garden! The LORD said in Genesis 3:15: “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” The bruising of Satan’s head by Christ broke the power of sin over the penitent sinner. Jesus made a way of escape for us. He didn’t leave Adam and Eve – our first parents – naked, hopeless and condemned. No! But by a gracious act of mercy He created a way of escape.

Genesis 3:21 reveals, “Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.” The Lord removed their old tattered garments and gave them a divine covering. Here is the first blood sacrifice. Significantly it was made by Almighty God. This renewed them and brought them back into communion with God. They were new creatures. The animal skins did not just cover their physical bodies but also represented the sacrifice of the innocent animal’s blood as a means of covering sin. We know that their progeny were familiar with this procedure of animal blood sacrifice (Genesis 4:4-5), for we see it also in the story of righteous Abel.

Noah later followed suit (Genesis 8:20-21). God commanded Abram to prepare animals to sacrifice. He then performed the sacrifice, cutting the animals into two pieces (Genesis 15:9-10). A sacrifice system was formally instituted under Moses that involved official offices, detailed furniture, elaborate procedures, and particular animals (the book of Leviticus). All these sacrifices pointed to the coming Lamb of God. This bloody scarlet thread ran throughout the Old Testament and ends up at the cross of Christ.

Paul, in Galatians 3:8-9, shows that Abraham was saved through the same inspired Gospel as we are today. It was the good news of salvation, by grace, through faith in Christ. It says: “the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.”

The same glorious Gospel runs from the Old to the New Testament. It involves one ongoing progressive harmonious revelation of the person and work of Christ. He is man’s only redeemer. He is man’s only hope. Notwithstanding, the Old Testament saints were looking at our Savior from a more obscure perspective, and their revelation of Him was more veiled than that of the new covenant saints. However, they embraced the same overriding life-changing message.

The old covenant saints were looking forward with anticipation to Christ’s earthly assignment on man’s behalf, while the new covenant Christian is looking back to His victorious earthly ministry. Salvation came in both testaments through the enlightening power of the Gospel. We see in this passage that it the glad tiding of good news that we enjoy today was proclaimed to Abraham and he embraced it by faith.

Adam Clarke expounds this passage: “As God intended to justify the heathen through faith, he preached the Gospel that contains the grand display of the doctrine of salvation by faith, before, to Abraham, while he was in his heathen state; and thus he is called the father of believers: therefore it must refer to them who shall believe the same Gospel among the Gentiles; and, as the door of faith was open to all the Gentiles, consequently the promise was fulfilled: In thee shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.”

Repeated Scripture shows the continuity between the old covenant Gospel message and the new covenant Gospel message. It also shows the harmony between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament.

1 Peter 4:4-6, “they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Previous generations have heard the good news of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those that had eye to see embraced Him, those that were blind rejected Him. There is one Gospel that has gradually developed through clearer revelation. All the truth we find in the New Testament can normally be found in the Old Testament, albeit sometimes veiled. This not does in any way suggest 2 Gospels. There is only one Gospel, one faith, one overall covenant of grace, one election and one salvation.

Hebrews 3:17-19 4:1-2: “with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.”

The writer to the Hebrews is here showing us that the Gospel was indeed preached onto natural Israel in the Old Testament. This is the same Gospel that we have today. This Gospel produced the same fruit then, in those that got it, as it does in us today. Those who rejected that liberating message back then faced the same awful consequences as those who do the same today. The Gospel in essentially the good news of Jesus Christ. He is man’s only Savior. He is man’s only hope. The Old Testament saints looked forward by faith to His appearing. We today look back and rejoice in His appearing 2000 years ago.

The Old Testament sets forth a Gospel theme consistent with the New Testament that men were saved from sin by grace through saving faith in the Lord and His promises.

The Gospel message was a prophetic message predicting the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. Christ was the central focus of the Old Testament. His life, death and resurrection are man’s only hope – past, present and future.