Should we allow immigrants into our country?

[pescador]

The words "racist, xenophobe, bigot" are smear words. Those labels are meaningless, nasty, derogatory. If you have any evidence that I or anyone on this website has judged a group of people by the country from which they came, then present that. Don't start name calling in hopes of winning the argument when the argument is not about groups of people but about numbers of people from any group.
This name calling, racist xenophobe, bigot slander has been denounced on other threads. I will not reply to any further post containing those words. Kindergarten na na na racist racist racist is not worth answering.

The definition of bigotry is prejudice and the state of being intolerant. An example of bigotry is disliking people because of their culture.

 

[QvQ]

The definition of bigotry is prejudice and the state of being intolerant. An example of bigotry is disliking people because of their culture.

And Exactly Where on this thread or on this Website is there any evidence of that? If you do not have any evidence of that, then you are Bearing False Witness.

 

[All Englands Skies]

Immigration for the main part is used as a tool, to saturate job markets, to keep the rich wealthy and to get more and more disposable workforces.

Hence why the most desperate people, the illegal immigrants, are the most cracked down on, as they often do illegal or semi-legal work that don't pay taxes to the government.

But legal immigration and encouraging workers who will accept less than the going rates because their from a poorer country is what the powers at be want.

So they sell it to the masses as its being open and co-operative and being tolerant or others.

So a knee jerk reaction to this, is people want to stop immigration all together or to some, it fills their racist tendencies.

However, there is another way, a way to make true unity, not to stop immigration, but to take the power away from the rich and greedy.

This way is that all the masses, migrant, native, naturalised, illegal, whatever, stand in some sort of unity, to "unionise" so to speak, so that rather than a migrant travelling here, to do a job less than the going rate, that the migrant instead gets a higher rate and that nobody is undercut and all progress.

Another issue to stop taking advantage of poorer nations, with sweatshops and such, to actually help other nations build themselves up.

But as it stands, immigration, just like finance, property, banking, business and resource claiming are all controlled by the mega rich and powerful and is all on their terms.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Is this a Christian thing to do or not?

Thru the front door which is legal, Yes. Illegally, No way.

 

[SeamusDelion]

Is this a Christian thing to do or not?

This is Gods land, not mans land.

 

[pescador]

Immigration for the main part is used as a tool, to saturate job markets, to keep the rich wealthy and to get more and more disposable workforces.

Hence why the most desperate people, the illegal immigrants, are the most cracked down on, as they often do illegal or semi-legal work that don't pay taxes to the government.

But legal immigration and encouraging workers who will accept less than the going rates because their from a poorer country is what the powers at be want.

So they sell it to the masses as its being open and co-operative and being tolerant or others.

So a knee jerk reaction to this, is people want to stop immigration all together or to some, it fills their racist tendencies.

However, there is another way, a way to make true unity, not to stop immigration, but to take the power away from the rich and greedy.

This way is that all the masses, migrant, native, naturalised, illegal, whatever, stand in some sort of unity, to "unionise" so to speak, so that rather than a migrant travelling here, to do a job less than the going rate, that the migrant instead gets a higher rate and that nobody is undercut and all progress.

Another issue to stop taking advantage of poorer nations, with sweatshops and such, to actually help other nations build themselves up.

But as it stands, immigration, just like finance, property, banking, business and resource claiming are all controlled by the mega rich and powerful and is all on their terms.

This doesn't take into account all the legal immigrants such as my grandparents who came to this country, and perhaps yours, to escape tyranny. Many legal immigrants have excellent educations and/or skills that continue to enrich our societies.

You don't need to be so cynical.

 

[SeamusDelion]

This doesn't take into account all the legal immigrants such as my grandparents who came to this country, and perhaps yours, to escape tyranny. Many legal immigrants have excellent educations and/or skills that continue to enrich our societies.

You don't need to be so cynical.

Im irish, and my people were forced here.

 

[pescador]

Im irish, and my people were forced here.

I'm sure that many immigrants were forced to leave their native countries, yours, mine, and others'. In Biblical times there were lots of forced migrations and that situation has existed virtually forever.

Is there anything that is preventing you from leaving Canada? I'm sure you're not being forced to stay.

 

[SeamusDelion]

I would't leave Canada, We need the gospel preached here.

 

[pescador]

I would't leave Canada, We need the gospel preached here.

If your people were forced there... Apparently that hasn't affected the choice of where you live.

BTW did you know that after Trump was elected there were so many hits on the Canadian immigration site that it crashed?

 

[SeamusDelion]

If your people were forced there... Apparently that hasn't affected the choice of where you live.

BTW did you know that after Trump was elected there were so many hits on the Canadian immigration site that it crashed?

I was born here, Im talking about the irish coffin boats that brought the surviving irish over to america. Its a hidden history, a good movie depicting the irish racism was in gangs of new york.

 

[All Englands Skies]

This doesn't take into account all the legal immigrants such as my grandparents who came to this country, and perhaps yours, to escape tyranny. Many legal immigrants have excellent educations and/or skills that continue to enrich our societies.

You don't need to be so cynical.

I am from the UK, not the USA.

Only my mother is a recent immigrant, as she is Kosovan Albanian, while my father is English.

Its not a case of people not enriching the Countries they go to, many do, but its a case of how in a worldwide, free market economy, immigration is used as a tool and form of exploitation, many immigrants are desperate and move for economic reasons, often due to the lesser living conditions in home nations, they accept less than the going rate for skilled work, so then the wages for everybody take a hit, as the wages are undercut.

That's the reality of it, its an important part of the economic reality of greedy and exploitative world we live in.

For example, imagine if you worked in a Trade where the "going rate", with shift rates, etc was £25 an hour, then a group of people turn up who are willing to do the same job for £12 and hour, that's it, you yourself now have to accept £12 or you won't get the job, so your wage has been cut in half for using the same skill set, nobody is happy about that.

But what they do is then blame the wrong people, they blame the immigrants themselves.

The reality is not to ban immigration however, but to Unionise all workers and the migrants join the Unions, then the migrant also works for £25 an hour as well, which they would be happier about as they'd be being payed more.

You see in history, the answers presented for this problem have been either Nationalism, as in to stop immigration altogether or Internationalism, as in to unite all workers and peoples to a common cause so they won't undermine each other but are still free to migrate to other places. The former, Nationalism can stagnate and isolate a Nation in the modern world and turn its people against other people for National identity, while the latter, while hard to make work, would be a better alternative and a way in which to take a hammer to the foundations of exploitation worldwide.

 

[QvQ]

I am from the UK, not the USA.

Only my mother is a recent immigrant, as she is Kosovan Albanian, while my father is English.

Its not a case of people not enriching the Countries they go to, many do, but its a case of how in a worldwide, free market economy, immigration is used as a tool and form of exploitation, many immigrants are desperate and move for economic reasons, often due to the lesser living conditions in home nations, they accept less than the going rate for skilled work, so then the wages for everybody take a hit, as the wages are undercut.

That's the reality of it, its an important part of the economic reality of greedy and exploitative world we live in.

For example, imagine if you worked in a Trade where the "going rate", with shift rates, etc was £25 an hour, then a group of people turn up who are willing to do the same job for £12 and hour, that's it, you yourself now have to accept £12 or you won't get the job, so your wage has been cut in half for using the same skill set, nobody is happy about that.

But what they do is then blame the wrong people, they blame the immigrants themselves.

The reality is not to ban immigration however, but to Unionise all workers and the migrants join the Unions, then the migrant also works for £25 an hour as well, which they would be happier about as they'd be being payed more.

You see in history, the answers presented for this problem have been either Nationalism, as in to stop immigration altogether or Internationalism, as in to unite all workers and peoples to a common cause so they won't undermine each other but are still free to migrate to other places. The former, Nationalism can stagnate and isolate a Nation in the modern world and turn its people against other people for National identity, while the latter, while hard to make work, would be a better alternative and a way in which to take a hammer to the foundations of exploitation worldwide.

Or the third alternative, when the country become so overcrowded, so polluted and is out of natural resources, everyone just immigrates to the next best area, until that is wrecked.
The US govt regulates how many animal units (cows sheep), where and when those animals can graze which acres. That is for protection of the environment. It is to stop greed and exploitation and range wars over water. If you look at the wars, it is always about land, water, natural resources. The rest, (fight for God or Country) is just fluff.
So how many? And where? When my family immigrated there were very few people. Now it is packed to the rafters. It will start wars especially over water.

 

[All Englands Skies]

Or the third alternative, when the country become so overcrowded, so polluted and is out of natural resources, everyone just immigrates to the next best area, until that is wrecked.
The US govt regulates how many animal units (cows sheep), where and when those animals can graze which acres. That is for protection of the environment. It is to stop greed and exploitation and range wars over water. If you look at the wars, it is always about land, water, natural resources. The rest, (fight for God or Country) is just fluff.
So how many? And where? When my family immigrated there were very few people. Now it is packed to the rafters. It will start wars especially over water.

Well that's an alternative when the world turns into something from Mad Max maybe.

 

[pescador]

I am from the UK, not the USA.

Only my mother is a recent immigrant, as she is Kosovan Albanian, while my father is English.

Its not a case of people not enriching the Countries they go to, many do, but its a case of how in a worldwide, free market economy, immigration is used as a tool and form of exploitation, many immigrants are desperate and move for economic reasons, often due to the lesser living conditions in home nations, they accept less than the going rate for skilled work, so then the wages for everybody take a hit, as the wages are undercut.

That's the reality of it, its an important part of the economic reality of greedy and exploitative world we live in.

For example, imagine if you worked in a Trade where the "going rate", with shift rates, etc was £25 an hour, then a group of people turn up who are willing to do the same job for £12 and hour, that's it, you yourself now have to accept £12 or you won't get the job, so your wage has been cut in half for using the same skill set, nobody is happy about that.

But what they do is then blame the wrong people, they blame the immigrants themselves.

The reality is not to ban immigration however, but to Unionise all workers and the migrants join the Unions, then the migrant also works for £25 an hour as well, which they would be happier about as they'd be being payed more.

You see in history, the answers presented for this problem have been either Nationalism, as in to stop immigration altogether or Internationalism, as in to unite all workers and peoples to a common cause so they won't undermine each other but are still free to migrate to other places. The former, Nationalism can stagnate and isolate a Nation in the modern world and turn its people against other people for National identity, while the latter, while hard to make work, would be a better alternative and a way in which to take a hammer to the foundations of exploitation worldwide.

Why do you think that every immigrant is uneducated, unskilled, etc? Many people emigrate from their countries with substantial education, talent, etc. They have a desire to live here because of the opportunity afforded them that they don't have in their native country. One of my closest friends is a computer engineer from India who emigrated because he saw a better chance to succeed in his profession here and to raise his family here than he had in his native land.

 

[All Englands Skies]

Why do you think that every immigrant is uneducated, unskilled, etc? Many people emigrate from their countries with substantial education, talent, etc. They have a desire to live here because of the opportunity afforded them that they don't have in their native country. One of my closest friends is a computer engineer from India who emigrated because he saw a better chance to succeed in his profession here and to raise his family here than he had in his native land.

Why did you come to the conclusion that I said every immigrant is unskilled?

I've clearly said that migrants do skilled work, a lot of it highly skilled, but they often accept less for using those same skills as the so called "natives", due to economic differences in the nations they travel from. If they accept less money for using the same skills as a so called "native", they naturally lower the "going rate" for those skill sets, so one could argue, it lessens to opportunity for the so called "natives", as in most societies, money is opportunity.

As I keep saying, the answer isn't to deny people migrating, but to "unionise" or "collectivise" and stick together, whatever industry they are in, to stop the undercutting power of migration without actually stopping migration.

We seem to be on two different wavelengths here.

 

[Junia]

Thru the front door which is legal, Yes. Illegally, No way.

yes

 

[pescador]

Why did you come to the conclusion that I said every immigrant is unskilled?

I've clearly said that migrants do skilled work, a lot of it highly skilled, but they often accept less for using those same skills as the so called "natives", due to economic differences in the nations they travel from. If they accept less money for using the same skills as a so called "native", they naturally lower the "going rate" for those skill sets, so one could argue, it lessens to opportunity for the so called "natives", as in most societies, money is opportunity.

As I keep saying, the answer isn't to deny people migrating, but to "unionise" or "collectivise" and stick together, whatever industry they are in, to stop the undercutting power of migration without actually stopping migration.

We seem to be on two different wavelengths here.

One of the unfortunate aspects of capitalism is paying people as little as possible for the work that they do, whether immigrants or not, in order to maximize profits. If you were running a business and had to choose between two people who would do equal work but accept less pay, whom would you choose?

I am all in favor of collective bargaining -- I was a union steward at one time -- but I am also in favor of people doing what they can to survive.

Secondly, many immigrants come to this country with education and skills and get excellent jobs. It is wrong to classify all immigrants as desperate people who will work for low wages just to survive.

 

[All Englands Skies]

One of the unfortunate aspects of capitalism is paying people as little as possible for the work that they do, whether immigrants or not, in order to maximize profits. If you were running a business and had to choose between two people who would do equal work but accept less pay, whom would you choose?

I am all in favor of collective bargaining -- I was a union steward at one time -- but I am also in favor of people doing what they can to survive.

Secondly, many immigrants come to this country with education and skills and get excellent jobs. It is wrong to classify all immigrants as desperate people who will work for low wages just to survive.

Hence the reason the Capitalist system needs to have a hammer taken to it.

Immigrants getting excellent jobs is irrelevant, as in some industries they undercut, others they don't.

Hence the reason for all to Unionise, "native" or migrant.

 

[pescador]

Hence the reason the Capitalist system needs to have a hammer taken to it.

Immigrants getting excellent jobs is irrelevant, as in some industries they undercut, others they don't.

Hence the reason for all to Unionise, "native" or migrant.

"Immigrants getting excellent jobs is irrelevant". No it's not. It's germaine to the subject.

It's silly to say that all should unionize. Management, those who are self-employed, employees of small business, and others have no reason to unionize. Only a large group with the power to bargain collectively should unionize. Without that power it's not only a waste of time, but dangerous.