The Olivet Discourse

[sovereigngrace]

the carrying out of God's Divine judgment in accordance with the Old Covenant was commonly referred to as a "coming in the cloud".

By who? You, Parousia and clanjira. Not the Bible writers, the commentators you quote or the rest of us.

 

[mkgal1]

When I look at Hebrews 9:24 it could be viewed as Christ sitting at the right hand of God making intercession for us (Romans 9:34) and not the initial sacrifice. Verses 25 and 26 “now once in the end of the world” appearance would be the one time initial sacrifice. However this would then put a gap in between the sacrifice and sitting down of Hebrews10:12. If Christ’s one time sacrifice wasn’t made until His ascension in Acts 1, then the sacrifices in the temple on earth would’ve been still valid until that time and an explanation of why the veil was torn would be needed.

I think this is best understood by keeping the priestly rituals of the Old Covenant in mind.

I believe Hebrews 9 is in reference to the Day of Atonement, going back to when Aaron would enter the Holy of Holies to atone for the sin of the Israelites. The Old Testament records that as 3 appearances. 1st Aaron first appeared at the brazen altar of sacrifice; 2nd Aaron appeared in the Holy of Holies in God's presence (clouded by incense) to sprinkle the blood on the mercy seat and to intercede for the assembly; 3rd ....Aaron came out of the sanctuary and appeared to the assembly to announce their sins had been forgiven by God as their sacrifice was accepted. The author of Hebrews is comparing the rituals done by Aaron with Christ's perfect sacrifice.

I believe the parallel for Christ's sacrifice, as referred to in Hebrews 9, would be that Christ first appeared on the Cross (parallel to Aaron at the brazen altar); 2nd Christ intercedes for us as an ongoing tense; and 3rd He shall appear (from the 1st century frame as Hebrews is written in) to signal the completion of the Atonement.

This article may interest you: 10. The Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16) | Bible.org

An interesting detail:

Before entering into the Holy of Holies with the blood of the bull, Aaron had to create a “cloud” of incense in the Holy of Holies, covering the mercy seat, to “veil” the glory of God so that he could enter in (vv. 12-13).

 

[mkgal1]

By who? You, Parousia and clanjira. Not the Bible writers, the commentators you quote or the rest of us.

Yes, by the Bible writers.

From what Parousia70 already gathered together and posted many pages back (and I keep referencing) in this post: The Olivet Discourse

1. God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
   Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)
   
   
   God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
   Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
   The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
   The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
   As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)
   
   
   God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
   Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)
   
   
   God Comes During the Maccabean Period
   For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70
   I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)
   
   As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.
   
   These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).
   
   Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated inMatthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
   
   NONE OF THIS NEGATES THE FUTURE TO US COMING TESTIFIED IN THE CREEDS.
   
   The Scriptures speak of Christ's coming in vengeance against Old Covenant Israel, which took place on time, as promised, before some of those who heard Christ utter the specific warning Had died.
   
   The Creedal coming reflects a long held Church understanding that the 1st century Judgement coming against Israel forshadows, in some fashion, Christ's future to us Coming to consummate the cosmos, however, neither scripture nor the creed contains any specific teaching about the time, manner and nature of that future to us event. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

 

[parousia70]

Thank you for that reminder @mkgal1

By who? You, Parousia and clanjira. Not the Bible writers, the commentators you quote or the rest of us.

You really make this too easy SG. And I have great trust in the capability of our readers to see clearly the vast and deep chasm between what you claim, and what the Bible teaches, regarding the many past "cloud comings" of God in judgment documented for us by the Prophets.

And the simple fact is you can provide no alternative interpretation...
We provide the actual text for our readers to examine, and your response is simply:
"that scripture does not mean what it says"

Yet you can't tell us what it DOES mean instead, can you?

Our readers are much smarter than you apparently give them credit for, and if you hope to convince them that YOUR interpretation of the myriad of OT scriptures that document God's multiple Cloud Comings we have provided is correct, I really think you'd have a much better shot at it if you could provide us/them WITH your interpretation of them... which so far you've failed to do.

Ever the optimist, I eager for you to take a shot anyway (as I expect our readers are likewise eager)... there are no less that 10 OT scripture passages above that depict God riding a cloud down to earth to accomplish any number of past Judgments upon individuals or nations... Please take each scripture and demonstrate WHY it does not mean what we contend, and provide your alternate interpretation of what it DOES mean.

That would be cool if you could do that. Then our readers might have a fighting chance at testing your view against scripture, the same way we've been encouraging them to test ours.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Yes, by the Bible writers.

From what Parousia70 already gathered together and posted many pages back (and I keep referencing) in this post: The Olivet Discourse

1. God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
   Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)
   
   
   God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
   Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
   The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
   The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
   As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)
   
   
   God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
   Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)
   
   
   God Comes During the Maccabean Period
   For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70
   I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)
   
   As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.
   
   These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).
   
   Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated inMatthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
   
   NONE OF THIS NEGATES THE FUTURE TO US COMING TESTIFIED IN THE CREEDS.
   
   The Scriptures speak of Christ's coming in vengeance against Old Covenant Israel, which took place on time, as promised, before some of those who heard Christ utter the specific warning Had died.
   
   The Creedal coming reflects a long held Church understanding that the 1st century Judgement coming against Israel forshadows, in some fashion, Christ's future to us Coming to consummate the cosmos, however, neither scripture nor the creed contains any specific teaching about the time, manner and nature of that future to us event. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

None of these make mention of, or refer to, the literal physical visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ. So your argument is totally moot. The next time He comes He will come physically, and every eye will see Him. That has not happened yet. This will occur on the last day of the last days. This will usher in the end.

 

[mkgal1]

None of these make mention of make mention of, or refer to, the literal physical visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ. So your argument is totally moot. The next time He comes He will come physically, and every eye will see Him. That has not happened yet. This will occur on the last day of the last days. This will usher in the end.

Not everything in the Bible describes that one event. The biblical history of God is spread out over thousands of years. What we are pointing out is the apocalyptic language of the Hebrew Scriptures that refer to God's judgment on historical nations. "Literal physical visible future return" is a parameter that you have set, but i don't see any Biblical support for that being what "coming in the clouds" refers to. We have to let Scripture inform us how to accurately interpret Scripture.....not modern teaching.

 

[mkgal1]

The next time He comes He will come physically, and every eye will see Him.

ISTM that framing all the Bible in this way is problematic. It seems to me that you are beginning with your own presumption and filtering the Bible through that presumptive lens.

Do you agree with St Augustine that "the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed.. and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed "?

 

[mkgal1]

Let's take just one example. Parousia70 shared this passage:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

....and I had written: "the carrying out of God's Divine judgment in accordance with the Old Covenant was commonly referred to as a "coming in the cloud" or "riding on a cloud" and other variations.

......in response, SG posted:

None of these make mention of make mention of, or refer to, the literal physical visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ. So your argument is totally moot. The next time He comes He will come physically, and every eye will see Him. That has not happened yet. This will occur on the last day of the last days. This will usher in the end.

...and i wasn't suggesting this is an example of a FUTURE coming......but do you not agree that this was fulfilled around 700 years BC?

 

[mkgal1]

When a person focuses heavily on one event in scripture (and their thoughts are influenced by extrabiblical teaching) other certain details can be completely overlooked and the main point of Scripture is lost.

None of these make mention of make mention of, or refer to, the literal physical visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ. So your argument is totally moot. The next time He comes He will come physically, and every eye will see Him. That has not happened yet. This will occur on the last day of the last days. This will usher in the end.

An example of that occurring, in my opinion.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Not everything in the Bible describes that one event. The biblical history of God is spread out over thousands of years. What we are pointing out is the apocalyptic language of the Hebrew Scriptures that refer to God's judgment on historical nations. "Literal physical visible future return" is a parameter that you have set, but i don't see any Biblical support for that being what "coming in the clouds" refers to. We have to let Scripture inform us....not modern teaching.

Every passage that exalts Christ and refers to His glorious return you attribute to the coming of Titus in AD 70. Obviously that is what lights your fire. That is all you and your supporters want to talk about. Very sad!

Classic Amils (including all Orthodox Protestant Partial Preterists) are obsessed with Christ, His sinless life, atoning death, victorious Resurrection, His current reign over all His enemies and Glorious climactic future return.

Full Preterism is blind to that. All their advocates want to talk about is AD 70. Read their posts because they expose their fixation.

 

[pasifika]

Yes, by the Bible writers.

From what Parousia70 already gathered together and posted many pages back (and I keep referencing) in this post: The Olivet Discourse

1. God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
   Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)
   
   
   God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
   Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
   The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
   The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
   As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)
   
   
   God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
   Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)
   
   
   God Comes During the Maccabean Period
   For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)
   
   
   God Comes to Judge Jerusalem at AD 70
   I saw, and behold a white cloud; and upon the cloud one sitting like to the Son of man, having on his head a crown of gold, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the temple crying with a loud voice to him that sat upon the cloud: Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, because the hour is come to reap: for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle into the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire; and he cried with a loud voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying: Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vineyard of the earth; because the grapes thereof are ripe. And the angel thrust in his sharp sickle into the earth, and gathered the vineyard of the earth, and cast it into the great press of the wrath of God: And the press was trodden without the city (Revelation 14:14-20)
   
   As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.
   
   These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).
   
   Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). As stated inMatthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
   
   NONE OF THIS NEGATES THE FUTURE TO US COMING TESTIFIED IN THE CREEDS.
   
   The Scriptures speak of Christ's coming in vengeance against Old Covenant Israel, which took place on time, as promised, before some of those who heard Christ utter the specific warning Had died.
   
   The Creedal coming reflects a long held Church understanding that the 1st century Judgement coming against Israel forshadows, in some fashion, Christ's future to us Coming to consummate the cosmos, however, neither scripture nor the creed contains any specific teaching about the time, manner and nature of that future to us event. (Deuteronomy 29:29)

Hello, how is Revelation 14:14- be about ad70? It clearly state that the harvest of the earth (Rev14:15), Not just Israel...those who are of Christ (One sitting on the clouds)and those who are of the evil one.. these are the harvest of the earth, and that harvest taken place at the end of this age..Matthew 13:39...The harvest is the end of the age, the harvesters are angels...

 

[sovereigngrace]

ISTM that framing all the Bible in this way is problematic. It seems to me that you are beginning with your own presumption and filtering the Bible through that presumptive lens.

Do you agree with St Augustine that "the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed.. and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed "?

I believe all scripture is inspired of God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

ISTM that framing all the Bible in this way is problematic. It seems to me that you are beginning with your own presumption and filtering the Bible through that presumptive lens.

Do you agree with St Augustine that "the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed.. and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed "?

I believe all scripture is inspired of God.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Hello, how is Revelation 14:14- be about ad70? It clearly state that the harvest of the earth (Rev14:15), Not just Israel...those who are of Christ (One sitting on the clouds)and those who are of the evil one.. these are the harvest of the earth, and that harvest taken place at the end of this age..Matthew 13:39...The harvest is the end of the age, the harvesters are angels...

She believes the end of the world, end of this age, the last day, and the new covenant era all ended with coming of Titus in AD 70. She believes she is now living in the NHNE.

Pity she would not open her eyes and see that sin, sinners, corruption, dying and crying still continue, thus exposing the fallacy of her theology.

 

[mkgal1]

Every passage that exalts Christ and refers to His glorious return you attribute to the coming of Titus in AD 70.

No I don't. That's your strawman argument that you continue to repeat.

Passages that YOU believe are about His future glorious return, I may attribute to the Son of Man coming in the clouds in 70 AD ...but maybe you have placed too many limits and expectations around certain passages that disallow you to see them any differently.

 

[mkgal1]

ISTM that framing all the Bible in this way is problematic. It seems to me that you are beginning with your own presumption and filtering the Bible through that presumptive lens.

Do you agree with St Augustine that "the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed.. and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed "?

I believe all scripture is inspired of God.

Well that's a non sequitur.

 

[mkgal1]

She believes the end of the world, end of this age, the last day, and the new covenant era all ended with coming of Titus in AD 70. She believes she is now living in the NHNE.

Pity she would not open her eyes and see that sin, sinners, corruption, dying and crying still continue, thus exposing the fallacy of her theology.

Do not speak for me.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Do not speak for me.

Where am I wrong?

 

[mkgal1]

Where am I wrong?

It's not your place to speak for me. I honestly didn't even read what you wrote. It doesn't matter if it's what I believe or not.

ETA: "ended with coming of Titus in AD 70" is your phrase not mine. I've posted that numerous of times and I'm asking you now to stop.

 

[keras]

Like most churches throughout history, churches today compromise on what is taught to their flocks, preferring teachers who rationalize, allegorize, spiritualize or simply ignore the prophetic scriptures. The church that believes Bible prophecies concerning the last days can only be understood allegorically or that prophecy is anything less than factual, is easy prey for Satan’s craftiness.

Satan, the great counterfeiter, deceives with half truths, often using scripture out of context, as he did with Jesus in the wilderness temptations. The same will be true with churches that say: yes these passages are literal, but they have no application to us, because they are trusting in the false assurance that they will be raptured away before those events occur. Once such people realise their great mistake, it will be too late to avoid the persecution of the Anti Christ. True believers in those churches will not lose their salvation, but they will endure suffering from which faithfulness to God and His Word, would have protected them. Thus genuine believers in the compromising churches may have to go through what Jesus described in His Olivet Discourse as the ‘Great Tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world.’

It is within the context of the Great Tribulation that Jesus warns the [allegorical type] Thyatiran and Laodicean church leaders– Rev 2:20-22 You tolerate Jezebel, whose teaching lures My servants into false beliefs, she refuses to repent, so I will throw her onto a bed of pain and those who commit [spiritual] adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they renounce what she is doing.

So those teachers who have misled Christians by not properly discerning the Word, will be punished and their flock won’t lose their salvation, but may be subject to the Tribulation.
James 3:1 & Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:10

On the other hand, believers who are spiritually prepared, faithful peoples, can look forward to the fulfilment of God’s great promises to His Christian people: great promises of protection during the next prophesied event – the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, and then their amazing gathering into the new country of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Jeremiah 30, Ezekiel 36, Zephaniah 3:19-20, Malachi 4:1-6, Hosea 14:4-9 It is those people, the holy ones of God, who will welcome Jesus at His Return with the shout: ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord’.


Genesis 18:17-19 ....I shall not conceal from Abraham what I am about to do, because he must tell his descendants what is just and right.
Just as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is used as an example of the terrible Day of the Lord, that will strike all the earth, so the Lord has warned us to take care to discern His Word, in order that we may tell our children to keep the Way of the Lord and to be aware of His plans for this end time. Jeremiah 23:14

2 Peter 3:7 & 10-12 The world is reserved for a Judgement of fire and the Day of the Lord’ wrath will come unexpectedly. On that Day, the heavens will disappear with a great noise, great flames of fire will bring all the earth into judgement. Since all things will be tested in this manner, think what sort of people you must be, what devout and dedicated lives you should live!
This prophecy does not refer to the New Heavens and New Earth to come after the Millennium and does not match with the descriptions of the glorious Return of Jesus, as many prophecies clearly state that He will not be seen during this forthcoming fire judgement. Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4
Ref: REB, NIV, KJV verses abridged.