Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Saint Steven]

This monstrosity of a post still fails to address anything I have asked.

Wait...
... the one with the longest post wins, right?

 

[Der Alte]

This monstrosity of a post still fails to address anything I have asked.
Please explain how and why "eternity/forever" does not and can not fit into the verses I have provided. Is there more than one eternity? Your sources claim aionon means without beginning or end, yet clearly there are Bible verses that contradict this. Care to explain?

I have explained it more than once, but you evidently do not want to see it. When "aion," noun, which means "eternity," and "aionios," adjective which means "eternal," are used to refer to something/someone that cannot be eternity/eternal it is being used hyperbolically.
When a word is used hyperbolically that does not change the inherent meaning. The hyperbolic use of "aion"/"aionios" is similar to how "kosmos"/"world" is frequently used hyperbolically as in these two and twelve other verses.

1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

Was/is "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one or is this hyperbole?

Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.​

Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray or is this hyperbole??
Here is the complete list of "hyperbolic kosmos" verses Matthew 16:26, 1 John 5:19, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:3, Genesis 41:57, Acts of the apostles 17:6, Acts of the apostles 19:35, Acts of the apostles 24:5, Luke 2:1, Acts of the apostles 19:27, Romans 1:8, John 12:19, John 12:19, 1 Corinthians 10:11, James 3:6

 

[ClementofA]

I have explained it more than once, but you evidently do not want to see it. When "aion," noun, which means "eternity," and "aionios," adjective which means "eternal," are used to refer to something/someone that cannot be eternity/eternal it is being used hyperbolically.
When a word is used hyperbolically that does not change the inherent meaning. The hyperbolic use of "aion"/"aionios" is similar to how "kosmos"/"world" is frequently used hyperbolically as in these two and twelve other verses.

​

In the past 10,000 years, who else besides you supports that theory?

About two years ago you said you were going to contact an expert re your theory. How did that turn out?

The same Greek word, aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[Der Alte]

In the past 10,000 years, who else besides you supports that theory?
About two years ago you said you were going to contact an expert re your theory. How did that turn out?
The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:
"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)
The Greek text may be found here:
http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf
In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:
4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:
Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Who Goes To Hell?
If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:
How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.
ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture.
could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?
12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Hyperbole! Hyperbole! etc. etc. Who agrees with me the native Greek speaking translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible and Jesus?
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, There is this footnote.
Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abrham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
Also in the EOB Paul uses “αιονιον/aionon,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionon" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
…..In these 9 verses, Jesus defines “aionios/”as “eternal” or “aion/”eternity.
Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never used “aionios” to refer to something mundane which cannot be eternal.
[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[2]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
See note on ou mé at bottom. signifies in nowise, by no means, never. In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In the above two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[5]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless at some point, Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[6]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[7]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” Aionios cannot mean an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[8]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[9]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death."
● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.​

Concerning words being defined in scripture.

Aionios kolasis in not temporary: it is not a time word. Aionios zoe is also not a time word.
Again: The adjective aionios is rooted in the noun aion. It holds no scope beyond the root upon which it stands.
And again: The Apostle John defines aionios in 9 (nine) words > >
"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You.."

…

​

 

[ClementofA]

Hyperbole! Hyperbole! etc. etc.

What's that? The Der Alte cheer-leading squad?

Who agrees with me the native Greek speaking translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible and Jesus?
.....

So you answer my question with a question. Is that a tacit admission that you know of no one in the past 10,000 years who agrees with your aion/ios/olam theory?

You provide no evidence that either Jesus or the EGO Bible supports your theory.

The rest of your post has been repeatedly answered (see urls below) & i'm still waiting for a response to my replies:

Who Goes To Hell?

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

 

[ClementofA]

Hyperbole! Hyperbole! etc. etc. Who agrees with me

Evidently no one.

I note that as with many groups whenever scripture as written contradicts one's doctrine they often explain it away by making it figurative, imagery, metaphor, hyperbole, idio[ma]tic, etc. Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to, doing that.

Sound familiar?

 

[agapelove]

I have explained it more than once, but you evidently do not want to see it. When "aion," noun, which means "eternity," and "aionios," adjective which means "eternal," are used to refer to something/someone that cannot be eternity/eternal it is being used hyperbolically.
When a word is used hyperbolically that does not change the inherent meaning. The hyperbolic use of "aion"/"aionios" is similar to how "kosmos"/"world" is frequently used hyperbolically as in these two and twelve other verses.

1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

Was/is "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one or is this hyperbole?

Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.​

Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray or is this hyperbole??
Here is the complete list of "hyperbolic kosmos" verses Matthew 16:26, 1 John 5:19, Revelation 12:9, Revelation 13:3, Genesis 41:57, Acts of the apostles 17:6, Acts of the apostles 19:35, Acts of the apostles 24:5, Luke 2:1, Acts of the apostles 19:27, Romans 1:8, John 12:19, John 12:19, 1 Corinthians 10:11, James 3:6

You evidently have no clue what the purpose of a hyperbole is. And you have not “explained” anything, you have just copy and pasted the same long exhortations over and over again in an attempt to avoid answering any real questions.

A hyperbole is an EXAGGERATION meant to EMPHASIZE.

When the Bible says that an “aion” has an end or that there is more than one “aion” how is this exaggerating it’s endlessness? It is actually contradicting it so no it is not being used hyperbolically.

 

[ClementofA]

You evidently have no clue what the purpose of a hyperbole is. And you have not “explained” anything, you have just copy and pasted the same long exhortations over and over again in an attempt to avoid answering any real questions.

A hyperbole is an EXAGGERATION meant to EMPHASIZE.

When the Bible says that an “aion” has an end or that there is more than one “aion” how is this exaggerating it’s endlessness? It is actually contradicting it so no it is not being used hyperbolically.

Good point.

It seems the point has been made to Der Alte before:

Oh, I read it, and my reply is the same. Hyperbole is a exaggeration of excess, not less. Therefore a finite period of time cannot be hyperbole for eternity as finite is less that eternity. It's really that simple. I understand that claiming hyperbole is the only of saving this idea, but it won't work.

"Greek hyperbolḗ overshooting, excess, n. derivative of hyperbállein to throw beyond, exceed" hyperbole

"1. an obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “She’s as big as a house." hyperbole

"A figure of speech in which exaggeration is used for emphasis or effect, as in I could sleep for a year or This bookweighs a ton."

"a deliberate exaggeration used for effect: he embraced her a thousand times."
hyperbole

"an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.” hyperbole

"In the 5th century B.C. there was a rabble-rousing Athenian, a politician named Hyperbolus, who often made exaggerated promises and claims that whipped people into a frenzy. But even though it sounds appropriate, Hyperbolus' name did not play a role in the development of the modern English word hyperbole. That noun does come to us from Greek (by way of Latin), but from the Greek verb hyperballein, meaning "to exceed," not from the name of the Athenian demagogue."

"...Latin, from Greek hyperbolē excess, hyperbole, hyperbola, from hyperballein to exceed"

Definition of HYPERBOLE

 

[nolidad]

That's an odd remark after your view was exposed as being so severely flawed & erroneous. Moreover you didn't even state how it is "omportant" (sic). You do realize that the judgement (Heb.9:27) applies to all men, even believers? As I posted:

Judgement, not hopelessness. Judgement, not no more chances for salvation. Judgement, not Love Omnipotent's love has expired like a carton of milk. Judgement, not the hand of the Almighty is impotent to save.

Six months in prison is a judgment. the death penalty is a judgment. Krisis is a condemning judgment.

Once again you have failed to show a verse that says people can repent in the after life, especially in light of the account of Lazarus and th erich man.

Gods hand is never impotent to save! But if He declared a limit to how long He will wait- then there is a limit! And He did! One human lifetime! If it is impossible for one in their human nature to do anything to please God, what makes you think they will desire to repent after?

Also why would anyone in the flesh wish to repent and live the Christian life with its denials, self sacrifice and humiliation of self if they can die and two weeks later say I am sorry?

 

[FineLinen]

Six months in prison is a judgment. the death penalty is a judgment. Krisis is a condemning judgment.

Once again you have failed to show a verse that says people can repent in the after life, especially in light of the account of Lazarus and th erich man.

Gods hand is never impotent to save! But if He declared a limit to how long He will wait- then there is a limit! And He did! One human lifetime! If it is impossible for one in their human nature to do anything to please God, what makes you think they will desire to repent after?

Also why would anyone in the flesh wish to repent and live the Christian life with its denials, self sacrifice and humiliation of self if they can die and two weeks later say I am sorry?

Noli: There is no time limit on the love & grace & mercy of God.

NONE

It is time for you to learn to sing the steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!

 

[nolidad]

"Anyone who knows anything about the Greek of the New Testament (and elsewhere) knows that extraneous articles are used all the time, and that very frequently it’s not at all meaningful. (The converse holds true, too; and it’s the reason why you don’t see John 1:1c translated as “The Word was a god.”)"

"Then in the second part of the verse they *add* a definite article, ‘the’ in front of the word ‘judgement’. Why is this done? It isn’t hard to imagine that it is done to scare people into submission by convincing them it must be done before they die and it is too late."

And anyone who has studied greek grammar being translated to English know that when a definite article is added in English- it helps define a specific person.place or thing, in this came which judgment (The great white throne judgment)

Well if you think it done to scare people- then present your evidence, otherwise it is nothing but you blowing verbal methane to deflect from the point!

Submission to what or who? If I use th elake of fire as an evangelical tool, I do so because people aren't responding to the love of the Gospel message. So I let them know the results of rejecting the gospel.

 

[nolidad]

I think the debate on the term "aionios" is exhausted, wouldn't you agree?

If we let scripture interpret scripture, you would have to be blind to not see that "aionios" does not literally mean FOREVER. Many sources and scholars have decided that aion more correctly translates to "ages" based on its usage in the Bible, and has no real qualifying ability to determine how long. Aionios quite literally and simply means "pertaining to an age".

In Homer it typically referred to one's life or lifespan. Today we use the word as a major division of geological time, subdivided into "eons" for example the Precambrian super-eon or Proterozoic eon.

Some would even argue that "aionios zoe/eternal life" is not about the quantity of life but rather the quality. Jesus Christ Himself gave us the definition of "aionios zoe/eternal life" in John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." He makes no mention of immortality in this definition but rather highlights a relationship with God. I personally believe that having a relationship with God has the power to sustain you unto all ages, but I don't think that is Jesus' main point in John 17.

Here we see some examples of aion/aionios/aionon/aioni used in the context of it not meaning forever.

Romans 16:25: “God…is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages [Greek αιωνιοις] and has now been manifested”.

1 Corinthians 2:7: "We speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages [αἰώνων (aiōnōn)] to our glory;”

Ephesians 3:9: “to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages past [αἰώνων (aiōnōn)] has been hidden in God who created all things.”

Colossians 1:26: “the mystery which has been hidden from past ages [αἰώνων (aiōnōn)] and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints."

Galatians 1:4: “…who gave Himself for our sins so that He might rescue us from this present evil age [αἰῶνος (aiōnos)], according to the will of our God and Father.”

Ephesians 1:21: “…in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age [αἰῶνι (aiōni)] but also in the one to come.

Ephesians 2:7: "When we were dead in our transgressions, God made us alive together with Christ, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come [αἰῶσιν (aiōsin)] He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.”

Matthew 28:20: "I am with you always, even to the end of the age [αἰῶνος (aiōnos)].”

Titus 1:2: “…in the hope of eternal [αἰωνίου (aiōniou)] life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages [αἰωνίων (aiōniōn)] ago."

And the debate about aionios would be finished, if you UR'ers recognized that aionios does mean an age. When modified for time it means either a specified or unspecified age during time. But when it refers to what happens "after" time it has alway been translated "eternal, forever, everlasting or ages to ages". By nearly every single translator with the exception of a few heretical tranlsators (Like Moffat, Goodspeed and the Emphatic diaglott).

This is why aionios is translated "eternal" when referring to the time after time!

 

[nolidad]

Any educated person can read. It's another entirely to refute it. Especially since it comes from expert sources like lexicons.



Matt Slick ; Are you a Calvinist too?

This is the guy that's so afraid of universalism that he banned all discussion of the topic on his site, CARM, many years ago. Though he was happy to welcome all Satanists to discuss Satanism.

I challenged him to a debate but he didn't accept.

Show me where he refuted anything i've said.

I did refute it! By showing you the etymology of the use of the word in greek history. Kolasis only appears twice in Scripture. In the epistle of John it definitely refers to punishment and in Matt. YOu wish to make it mean a corrective type of punishment when Jesus who is the author of all languages should have used the word "paideia" Which is training or correcting by harshness!

You have not defended you r use of kolasis in Matt. 25:46 as meaning correction at all! All you proved is that at one time in greek history it was a pruning of a tree for greater harvest! And then I showed you it grew to mean punishment (not in a corrective but punitive sense)

Still waiting for the verse that shows the lost in the lake of fire can repent and be redeemed.

 

[FineLinen]

And anyone who has studied greek grammar....

The Arrogance Of Religion

Picking up my copy of Karl Barth’s Commentary on Romans, as I often do, I just opened it up at random, and began to read when the phrase, “the arrogance of religion” caught my attention. I believe, from my recollection of that moment, Barth repeated himself in a short context. Whatever one might think of the man who was considered the greatest theologian of the twentieth century, one would have to admit from even a cursory reading of Barth, that he, in the strongest language, exposed the difference between God and what religion presumes to know and declare of Him. According to Barth, there is between the two a vast and deep chasm.

Sometimes the arrogance of religion is just plain out-in-the-open apparent.

J. B. Phillips took that arrogance to task noting that God doesn’t not fit in our conceptual box(es), declaring appropriately, that our God (the God according to us) is too small. Yes, I’m generalizing when I say, “our” and “us,” because the indictment is applicable to all in some measure or another since we all have an inclination toward the kind of presumption, as the story goes, of a child telling her teacher that she was drawing a picture of God. “But, no one knows what God looks like,” explained the teacher.

Nonplused at that claim, the child said, “well they will when I’m through.” Yep, that sums up the arrogance of religion.

But it’s not always just plain out-in-the-open apparent; it’s more, as the saying goes, hidden in plain sight… -John Gavazzoni

-Continued below-

The Arrogance of Religion

 

[nolidad]

It doesn't seem like you even read my post, let alone replied to it.

And what's this about "nothing is impossible with gods"?

Who are these "gods"? How many do you believe in?

Just one, but my fingers are not so adept to type well. I mispell! Big Deal!!!! I read your posts and reply to them! All the time!

BTW judging this matt slick guy (I don't even know what type of theology he has calvinist, arminianist, prentecostsal etc.) He just addresses truth in this issue.

While You, FL, ST.S, and Alove have to go find obscure translators and limited translations, and men who printed a newsletter with only 200 subscribers and then use 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th level uses of the word without following th e rules of greek that show when. one has to go to the second, third or Quaternary meaning.

These are things a 1st year student of Greek learn in the God awful grammar lessons.

 

[nolidad]

The Arrogance Of Religion

Picking up my copy of Karl Barth’s Commentary on Romans, as I often do, I just opened it up at random, and began to read when the phrase, “the arrogance of religion” caught my attention. I believe, from my recollection of that moment, Barth repeated himself in a short context. Whatever one might think of the man who was considered the greatest theologian of the twentieth century, one would have to admit from even a cursory reading of Barth, that he, in the strongest language, exposed the difference between God and what religion presumes to know and declare of Him. According to Barth, there is between the two a vast and deep chasm.

Sometimes the arrogance of religion is just plain out-in-the-open apparent.

J. B. Phillips took that arrogance to task noting that God doesn’t not fit in our conceptual box(es), declaring appropriately, that our God (the God according to us) is too small. Yes, I’m generalizing when I say, “our” and “us,” because the indictment is applicable to all in some measure or another since we all have an inclination toward the kind of presumption, as the story goes, of a child telling her teacher that she was drawing a picture of God. “But, no one knows what God looks like,” explained the teacher.

Nonplused at that claim, the child said, “well they will when I’m through.” Yep, that sums up the arrogance of religion.

But it’s not always just plain out-in-the-open apparent; it’s more, as the saying goes, hidden in plain sight… -John Gavazzoni

-Continued below-

The Arrogance of Religion

And on what basis do you believe you are not just spewing the arrogance of your religion? You love to imply why we are all wrong and arrogant and we are scary- but how do you know your concept of God even approaches being right? It is not because of a normal usual reading of SCripture, but a reinterpretation and allegorical rendering using improper grammar and misapplying passages.

 

[nolidad]

Noli: There is no time limit on the love & grace & mercy of God.

NONE

It is time for you to learn to sing the steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!

For HIs children yes!

But Psalm 2 and John 3:36 shopws that Gods wrath is already abiding on people.

And revelation 143 shows people being tortured by God (we will use your lenient ages to ages) Seems like Gods love and daily renewing mercy are missing there.

God this is awful. Having to defned the character of Gods Holiness and Justice becausesomeone cannot see!

 

[nolidad]

The Arrogance Of Religion

Picking up my copy of Karl Barth’s Commentary on Romans, as I often do, I just opened it up at random, and began to read when the phrase, “the arrogance of religion” caught my attention. I believe, from my recollection of that moment, Barth repeated himself in a short context. Whatever one might think of the man who was considered the greatest theologian of the twentieth century, one would have to admit from even a cursory reading of Barth, that he, in the strongest language, exposed the difference between God and what religion presumes to know and declare of Him. According to Barth, there is between the two a vast and deep chasm.

Sometimes the arrogance of religion is just plain out-in-the-open apparent.

J. B. Phillips took that arrogance to task noting that God doesn’t not fit in our conceptual box(es), declaring appropriately, that our God (the God according to us) is too small. Yes, I’m generalizing when I say, “our” and “us,” because the indictment is applicable to all in some measure or another since we all have an inclination toward the kind of presumption, as the story goes, of a child telling her teacher that she was drawing a picture of God. “But, no one knows what God looks like,” explained the teacher.

Nonplused at that claim, the child said, “well they will when I’m through.” Yep, that sums up the arrogance of religion.

But it’s not always just plain out-in-the-open apparent; it’s more, as the saying goes, hidden in plain sight… -John Gavazzoni

-Continued below-

The Arrogance of Religion

Well Barth has some great writings, but He was also a product of the liberalism of the Church in Doctrine.

And why would you so honor his works? He rejects universalism as heretical??

 

[FineLinen]

For HIs children yes!

Poor dear Noli: put on your specs.

His children = yes.

ALL the "children of men" = yes.

"For the Lord will not cast off for ever: though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. For he does not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men."

Until there is serious advance into Abba, you are banned from the Choir!

 

[FineLinen]

Well Barth has some great writings, but He was also a product of the liberalism of the Church in Doctrine.

And why would you so honor his works? He rejects universalism as heretical??

Poor dear Noli. Guess again. (lol)

Barth’s universalism