Who Goes To Hell?

[FineLinen]

This is a personal message NOT a post by the Goofus F.L.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Maybe God knows what truely motivates you. Maybe A person thinks of themselves as a Christian but deep down theyre motivated by hatred, self righteousness and malice - you get what you want - and this turns out to be hellish / hell??

 

[FineLinen]

Maybe God knows what truely motivates you. Maybe A person thinks of themselves as a Christian but deep down theyre motivated by hatred, self righteousness and malice - you get what you want - and this turns out to be hellish / hell??

My friend: In the final analysis our Heavenly Father gets what He wants. Our wants are quite on another level. His are out of Himself resulting in none of us getting what we want.

The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases.
Your mercies never come to an end;
they are new every morning,
new every morning:
great is Your faithfulness, O Lord,
great is Your faithfulness!

Never = ? ?

Welcome to the God of oudepote.

Oudepote =

Not ever.

Not at any time.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

My friend: In the final analysis our Heavenly Father gets what He wants. Our wants are quite on another level. His are out of Himself resulting in none of us getting what we want.

God wants no one to go to hell - does that mean no one goes?

 

[FineLinen]

God wants no one to go to hell - does that mean no one goes?

My friend there are four (4) hell's each one is consummated in Our God.

ALL!

Our word for today is ta pavnte.

From Him the all comes, thru Him the all exists, in Him the all ends.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

So God is everywhere - even in hell and people can’t see God when they are in hell??

 

[FineLinen]

So God is everywhere - even in hell and people can’t see God when they are in hell??

Dear Confused: Our God is the Source, Guide & Goal of the all.

Not some of the all: the all.

"If I make my bed in hell.."

Behold

"You are there."

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Do you mean to say some may go to hell but they eventually come to the father??

 

[FineLinen]

Do you mean to say some may go to hell but they eventually come to the father??

Dear Confused: That you must determine in your own mind & heart!

“Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will…”

Chance = sunkuria =

A meeting together by a coincidence of [His] circumstances.

A concurrence of events rather than chance.

Please note

There is zero chance involved.

 

[Der Alte]

My friend: In the final analysis our Heavenly Father gets what He wants. Our wants are quite on another level. His are out of Himself resulting in none of us getting what we want.
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases.
Your mercies never come to an end;
they are new every morning,
new every morning:
great is Your faithfulness, O Lord,
great is Your faithfulness!.....

More endless quasi-religious propaganda.

 

[agapelove]

We shall be strangers no more! It is evident from your posts you have realized the vastness of our Father's great love.

AgapeLove keep posting out of Him. There is life in your words!

Within Him & for Him, F.L.

It is a privilege to become your friend, FL.

 

[FineLinen]

It is a privilege to become your friend, FL.

My dear young lady: I was asking the Father why it has taken me so long to begin to realize how little I know of Him. Then you come trotting on to the threads here on C.F. and have turned my question into absolute wonder at His great reach for us all.

The thread on which we first met was a moment of destiny. We are friends, joined together with the mighty cords of His great love in the Beloved, dear Agapelove.

 

[thomas_t]

I am not saying that the Bible actually means what our doctrines are saying. I am rather pointing out the many anomalies and irregularity within its texts.

I am not speaking out of my own doctrine when I say what I say.

What is the definition of life and death in the parable of the Prodigal Son?
Luke 15:24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

What about here in these passages?

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

If we read the words life and death as literal immortality and annihilation, then we are are not seeing the bigger picture. So yes, the Bible really doesn't mean that. But I am basing that off the rest of scripture, not my own doctrine.

In the other thread you said, hell is a creation of man and not of God.
I did a quick research that at least one translation offers quite a lot of occurances of the word "hell" in the Bible, here Bible Search: hell.

(I couldn't answer you in the other thread)
I think we should take hell seriously.

Thomas

 

[Saint Steven]

@Lazarus Short do you have your list of Bible translations that do not contain the word "hell" handy? There is a question in post #253 about this. Thanks. cc: @thomas_t

 

[FineLinen]

I think we should take hell seriously.

Thomas

Thomas: I take the Living God seriously.

He declares death & hell are consummated in Himself.

I believe it.

He states He will draw all mankind unto Himself.

I believe Him.

He instructs His disciples to gather up leftover fish & bread that nothing be lost.

The souls of mankind for whom He is the propitiation & at-one-ment are more important than leftover elements of fish & bread.

I believe it, do you?

 

[Der Alte]

Lists of Bible versions, which purport to be "literal translations," are frequently posted in this forum for the purpose of supporting "Universal Reconciliation/UR" teachings.
There are two very important omissions from these "literal translations" the words "hell" and "eternal." In the NT these are replaced with "Gehenna" and "ages." In Matthew 25:46 "eternal punishment" is replaced by "age during correction."
.....Here are two "literal" translations which cannot be impugned. the 1917 Jewish Publication Society English translation of the Old Testament and the Eastern Greek Orthodox English New Testament.
In the JPS OT not only is "olam" translated "eternal" it is defined as "eternal/for ever" in the verses.

Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, [ עולם] and this is My memorial unto all generations.​

In this verse "olam" is paired with "unto all generations." By definition "olam" means "for ever."

Jeremiah 23:40 and I will bring an everlasting [ עולם] reproach upon you, and a perpetual [ עולם] shame, which shall not be forgotten.​

In this verse "olam" is defined as "everlasting, perpetual," twice it is paired with "shall not be forgotten."

Jeremiah 50:5 They shall inquire concerning Zion with their faces hitherward: 'Come ye, and join yourselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that shall not be forgotten.'​

In this verse "olam" is defined as "everlasting" it is paired with "shall not be forgotten."

Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

In this vs. "olam" is paired with "nothing can be added or taken away from God’s acts." “age(s),“ a finite period, does not equate to “nothing can be added or taken away from God acts” “eternal” does.

Isaiah 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.​

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “shall not be abolished,” “eternal” does.
= = = = =
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios,” “kolasis” and"Gehenna?"
…..Note, in the EOB, pg. 180, There is this footnote.

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).​

…..AlAlso in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.​

= = = = = = =

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.​

= = = = = = = =

1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.​

In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

 

[thomas_t]

He declares death & hell are consummated in Himself.

... and no Bible verse to back it up.
It's presumption. But let's assume you were to be right here and a Bible verse saying so exists... this doesn't mean it is not endless. If you think otherwise... prove your point please.

He states He will draw all mankind unto Himself.

and again: no Bible verse to back it up. Also presumption.

The souls of mankind for whom He is the propitiation & at-one-ment are more important than leftover elements of fish & bread.

I believe it, do you?

Ah that's an intelligent thought well put in eloquent words.
I believe that God takes the anguish and fears of the earthly victims of crime seriously.
If they are admitted to heaven... then the former perpetrators should not make their heaven a hell a second time... like they did on earth.
Bread cannot rape, murder, rob, insult... man can.
Your Universal "Reconciliation" completely does not take into account the needs of the victims. Whether the perpetrators make them suffer again, after having spent some time in a temporary hell perhaps, ... who cares? ... you might think.
Victims need protection - not reconciliation, please.

EDITED (first paragraph)

 

[ClementofA]

.....Here are two "literal" translations which cannot be impugned. the 1917 Jewish Publication Society English translation of the Old Testament and the Eastern Greek Orthodox English New Testament.
In the JPS OT not only is "olam" translated "eternal" it is defined as "eternal/for ever" in the verses.

Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, [ עולם] and this is My memorial unto all generations.​

In this verse "olam" is paired with "unto all generations." By definition "olam" means "for ever."

Jeremiah 23:40 and I will bring an everlasting [ עולם] reproach upon you, and a perpetual [ עולם] shame, which shall not be forgotten.​

In this verse "olam" is defined as "everlasting, perpetual," twice it is paired with "shall not be forgotten."

Jeremiah 50:5 They shall inquire concerning Zion with their faces hitherward: 'Come ye, and join yourselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that shall not be forgotten.'​

In this verse "olam" is defined as "everlasting" it is paired with "shall not be forgotten."

Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

In this vs. "olam" is paired with "nothing can be added or taken away from God’s acts." “age(s),“ a finite period, does not equate to “nothing can be added or taken away from God acts” “eternal” does.

Isaiah 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.​

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “shall not be abolished,” “eternal” does.
= = = = =
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios,” “kolasis” and"Gehenna?"
…..Note, in the EOB, pg. 180, There is this footnote.

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).​

…..AlAlso in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.​

= = = = = = =

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.​

= = = = = = = =

1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.​

In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

Here are quotes from the 1917 Jewish Publication Society English translation of the OT. No translator bias here. And quotes from the Eastern Orthodox Greek New Testament. No translator bias here.
Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, [ עולם] and this is My memorial unto all generations.
In this verse "olam" is paired with "unto all generations." By definition "olam" means for ever.

So if an airline pilot announces "We are going to land in New York City, folks. We will be entering the USA", according to you NYC = USA, eh. Gotcha.

A more literal & less misleading translation is:

Exo.3:15 And Elohim said further to Moses: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, Yahweh, the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name for the eon, and this the remembrance of Me for generation after generation (CLV)

"generation after generation" does not equal "for ever for all generations".

Your translation misrepresents the Hebrew. There's no "all" in the Hebrew text, not that it would matter, since even that would not say 'throughout all' generations.
Even yours says only "unto", not 'throughout'.

Jeremiah 23:40 and I will bring an everlasting [ עולם] reproach upon you, and a perpetual [ עולם] shame, which shall not be forgotten.
In this verse "olam" is defined as "everlasting, perpetual" twice it is paired with "shall not be forgotten."

So if a passanger on an airline says "This will be a long trip and one that i shall never forget", according to you "long" = "never", eh. Gotcha.

Compare:

Jer.23:40 "And I have put on you reproach eonian, And shame eonian that is not forgotten!"

Present tense "is", not "shall" never.

Jeremiah 50:5 They shall inquire concerning Zion with their faces hitherward: 'Come ye, and join yourselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that shall not be forgotten.'
In this verse "olam" is defined as "everlasting" it is paired with "shall not be forgotten."

So if a passanger on an airline says "This will be a long trip and one that i shall never forget", according to you "long" = "never", eh. Gotcha.

Jer.50:5 [To] Zion they ask the way, Thitherward [are] their faces:Come in, and we are joined unto Yahweh, A covenant eonian--not forgotten. (CLV)

Is "not forgotten" is not the same as "shall never be forgotten".

Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
[/INDENT]
In this vs. nothing can be added or taken away from God’s acts. “age(s),“ a finite period, does not equate to “nothing can be added or taken away from God acts” “eternal” does.

So according to you one of "God's acts" was parting the Red Sea & that means the act lasted "for ever", eh. Gotcha.

The next verse states:

Eccl.3:15a That which is, it already was, And what is to come already has been...

And you think we should take everything this author says as the "gospel truth". Gotcha.

"Ecclesiastes: The Inspired Book of Error":

"The book of Ecclesiastes, or "the Preacher," is unique in scripture...This book is filled with error. And yet it is wholly inspired. This may confuse some people,..."

Message: Ecclesiastes: The Inspired Book of Error (Ecclesiastes)

Eccl.3:14 I know that all the One, Elohim, is doing, It shall be for the eon; Onto it there can be nothing to add, And from it there can be nothing to subtract; The One, Elohim, He does it that they may fear before Him. (CLV)

Nothing here states that each individual act of God lasts forever. Rather the idea seems to be that they are all perfect.

Isaiah 51:6
[11](6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “shall not be abolished,” “eternal” does.

So if an airline pilot announces "We will be landing in New York City, folks. We will be entering the USA shortly", according to you NYC = USA, eh. Gotcha.

Isa.51:6 Lift your eyes to the heavens, and look to the earth beneath. For the heavens, as with smoke, are full, and the earth, as a garment, is decaying, and its dwellers likewise, as a louse, are dying. Yet My salvation for the eon shall come. And My righteousness shall not be dismayed. " 7 Hearken to Me, knowers of righteousness, My people with My law in their heart. You must not fear the reproach of a mortal, and by their taunts you must not be dismayed." 8 For, as if a garment, eating them is the moth, and, as if wool, eating them is the roach. Yet My righteousness for the eon shall come, and My salvation for the generation of generations." (CLV)

.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

So according to you if two different words are attached to "God" that proves they are synonymous, eh. Gotcha. So "God is love" & "God is light" proves that love = light, eh. Gotcha.

1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.

In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.

"The king of the underworld is immortal, cute, a killer, etc". To use your type of faulty reasoning/logic, since "immortal" is paired with "cute", cute must logically be defined as eternal. Wrong. And the king must be eternally cute. Wrong. And because immortal is paired with killer, the king must be eternally killing for all eternity. Wrong. And killer must be defined as eternal. Wrong.

In another post you committed the same error, saying: "Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortality." ". Same idea as my example above with the king of the underworld. Faulty logic. Faulty reasoning. Hence an unproven, unwarranted assumption.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[Danthemailman]

Unbelievers go to hell. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[ClementofA]

Unbelievers go to hell. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If "unbelievers go to hell", then everyone goes to "hell", for ALL have been unbelievers.

Also the verse says unbelievers are condemned, not condemned to hell, let alone condemned to the endless tortures monstrosity.

One thing God has spoken, two things I have heard: “Power belongs to you, God, and with you, Lord, is unfailing love”; Psalm 62:11b-12a

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."

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