Who Goes To Hell?

[Der Alte]

I ask that you not be rude. And what agenda, bruh? I have no agenda, I'm just asking a question

I think you were rude to me.

"1. So, people can come back from Hell, unless they're those 3 types? 2. And you said all sinners go to Hell, so would you say that you're sinless? 3. Can you give me a list of sins?​

# 1 Is only a very small part of my post. There were other views expressed.
#2 and 3 are insulting. I did not say all sinners go to hell. That was one view expressed in the quotes I posted. Therefore the rest is attacking me "would you say that you're sinless? 3. Can you give me a list of sins?" I personally said nothing which would merit there questions.
Would you like to reread my post and ask some relevant questions?

​

 

[agapelove]

Yeah, it requires Spiritual Maturity to figure out that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says, but in fact means what our doctrines have decided that it means, which may be something altogether different. Otherwise way too many of our doctrines wouldn't be able to survive contact with Scripture.

I am not saying that the Bible actually means what our doctrines are saying. I am rather pointing out the many anomalies and irregularity within its texts.

I am not speaking out of my own doctrine when I say what I say.

What is the definition of life and death in the parable of the Prodigal Son?
Luke 15:24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.' So they began to celebrate.

What about here in these passages?

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

If we read the words life and death as literal immortality and annihilation, then we are are not seeing the bigger picture. So yes, the Bible really doesn't mean that. But I am basing that off the rest of scripture, not my own doctrine.

 

[Der Alte]

Just pointing out that "prove it ain't" is just as valid for someone claiming Jesus was a man from Mars as for someone claiming that Jesus is the Risen Lord. It's intrinsically ridiculous, and you don't do yourself or your arguments any service by resorting to it.

More irrelevancy If someone says or implies that something I posted is wrong it is certainly relevant response to ask them to prove it and the rest of your argument is irrelevant.

Point taken, but I took the libetrty to extending it to expecting people to understand Christian symbolism, or what some Christians claim is symbolism. I'm only a couple of generations past my pagan ancestors aand that's close enough to be very literal minded.

Sounds like you are trying to back pedal for your faulty objection.

 

[Jipsah]

"Eternal life" is one thing, conscious awareness after death is another.

So I've always been told. But I don't reaally see any support for that in DScripture unless I accept the eternal torture doctrine as axiomatic, which I obviously don't. I'm sorry, but Jewish beliefs mean nothing to me, since they deny Christ as well.

 

[Jipsah]

I am not saying that the Bible actually means what our doctrines are saying. I am rather pointing out the many anomalies and irregularity within its texts.

I'm am a rock, I am an island." Yeah, I've seen metaphors. The trick is to recognize a metaphor by some means other than when it sharpens the doctrinal ax you're trying to grind.

What is the definition of life and death in the parable of the Prodigal Son?

Metaphorical, eternal life and death appear to be out of the scope the father is adressing.

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

I'd say it's literal. You believe in Christ, you live together with HIm forever. Don't believe, you're dead, defunct, don't exist, and in fact never existed. He never knew you, you were an NPC.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Literal again. I see no reason to see it otherwise.

If we read the words life and death as literal immortality and annihilation

In fact I do just that.

, then we are are not seeing the bigger picture. So yes, the Bible really doesn't mean that.

And now I hear the doctrine speaking and not the Scripture. There's an implicit "everybody knows..." there that I don't accept.

But I am basing that off the rest of scripture, not my own doctrine.

I'm rejecting it on that same basis.

 

[agapelove]

I'd say it's literal. You believe in Christ, you live together with HIm forever. Don't believe, you're dead, defunct, don't exist, and in fact never existed. He never knew you, you were an NPC.

So you are allowed to choose when words are used metaphorically or literally but other people are not when it goes against the dogma you have built? We all have our own personal paradigms in which we interpret Scripture.

To read John 17 (an extremely powerful prose about what the goal of the Gospel is) and have your only takeaway be immortality, then I'm afraid you are missing out!

I see it as a metaphor. To have eternal life is to KNOW GOD. It does not say live forever. To read the text literally would be to project eternal life into the distant future and not see that it is readily available NOW. You can have eternal life starting today! You can know God starting TODAY. Why read the text literally and miss out on the bigger blessing it is trying to convey?

 

[sunshineforJesus]

Thanks for your reply.

But don't we as Christians "get a free pass to go to heaven"?
Or are you claiming that our salvation was earned somehow?

Do you know where Jesus went, and what he did, for the three days between his death and resurrection?

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish,
so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?

Yes Christians do get a free pass into heaven but not the unsaved.

 

[Der Alte]

So I've always been told. But I don't reaally see any support for that in DScripture unless I accept the eternal torture doctrine as axiomatic, which I obviously don't. I'm sorry, but Jewish beliefs mean nothing to me, since they deny Christ as well.

Unscripturally dismissive. IIRC Jesus told the people do what they say but do not as they do.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself, is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The Jews considered this passage to be factual.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

 

[1213]

Who live there eternally, right?....

Bible tells those who go to hell are destroyed. So, I don’t think they live at all then.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

 

[Saint Steven]

Bible tells those who go to hell are destroyed. So, I don’t think they live at all then.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

That's the Annihilationist view. Are you an Annihilationist?

 

[Der Alte]

Bible tells those who go to hell are destroyed. So, I don’t think they live at all then.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

The Bible does not say those that go to hell are destroyed.
What God created He certainly can destroy but there is not one single verse which says that even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell or anywhere else.

 

[ClementofA]

The Bible does not say those that go to hell are destroyed.
What God created He certainly can destroy but there is not one single verse which says that even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell or anywhere else.

Really? What about:

These shall be punished with aionion destruction...(2 Thess.1:9a).

They will suffer "destruction", but not be "destroyed"? Is that your viewpoint?

Will they only be partly "destroyed"?

------------------------------------------------


One thing God has spoken, two things I have heard: “Power belongs to you, God, and with you, Lord, is unfailing love”; Psalm 62:11b-12a

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus.

Love Omnipotent loves you more than you can imagine!

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

 

[Der Alte]

...

Really? What about:
These shall be punished with aionion destruction...(2 Thess.1:9a).
They will suffer "destruction", but not be "destroyed"? Is that your viewpoint?
Will they only be partly "destroyed"?...

Why did you only quote part of the verse?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;​

Why did you quote this verse about "destruction" when you believe in"universal reconciliation?"
How can someone who is "destroyed" no longer exists be "from" anything?
ἀπόλλυμι/Apollumi occurs 86 times in the NT, of this 68 times, 79%, it cannot mean the destruction/annihilation which some argue supposedly occurs at the final judgment.
…..Here is the definition of apollumi from BDAG, one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available

ἀπόλλυμι for its conjug. s. B-D-F §101 (s.v. ὄλλυμι); W-S. §14, 18; Rob. 317; fut. ἀπολέσω Hs 8, 7, 5; Att. ἀπολῶ 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14; ParJer 1:1, 8); 1 aor. ἀπώλεσα; 1 pf. ἀπολώλεκα. Mid.: fut. ἀπολοῦμαι Lk 13:3; 2 aor. ἀπωλόμην; the 2 pf. ἀπόλωλα functions as a pf. mid.; ptc. ἀπολωλώς (Hom.+).
① to cause or experience destructionⓐ act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin ton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Charito 2, 8,1) Js 4:12: H9, 3, 4. eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).
β. w. impers. obj. ἀ. τ. σοφίαν τ. σοφῶν destroy the wisdom of the wise 1 Cor 1:19 (Is 29:14). ἀ. τ. διάνοιαν destroy the understanding Hm 11:1 (cp. Just., D. 93, 1 τὰς φυσικὰς ἐννοίας).
γ. without obj. J 10:10.
ⓑ mid. perish, be ruined
α. of pers. perish, die (schol. on Nicander, Ther. 188 ἀπόλλυται ὁ ἀνήρ=the man dies υσθαι) 1 Cl 51:5; 55:6; B 5:4, 12; D 16:5; Hs 6, 2, 1f. As a cry of anguish ἀπολλύμεθα we are perishing! (Epict. 2, 19, 16 [in a storm-tossed vessel]; PPetr II, 4 [1], 4f νυνὶ δὲ ἀπολλύμεθα) Mt 8:25; Mk 4:38; Lk 8:24 (Arrian, Peripl. 3, 3 of disaster that the stormy sea brings to the seafarer). ἐν μαχαίρῃ ἀ. die by the sword Mt 26:52. λιμῷ of hunger (Ezk 34:29) Lk 15:17. τῇ ἀντιλογίᾳ τοῦ Κόρε Jd 11c (because of 11a and b it should perh. = be corrupted ; cp. Polyb. 32, 23, 6). ὑπό τινος (Hdt. 5. 126; Dio Chrys. 13 [7], 12) ὑπὸ τ. ὄφεων killed by the snakes 1 Cor 10:9; cp. vs. 10. Abs. of a people perish J 11:50. Of individuals (Lev 23:30) Ac 5:37; 2 Pt 3:9; 1 Cl 12:6; 39:5 (Job 4:20).—Esp. of eternal death (cp. Ps 9:6f; 36:20; 67:3; 72:27; 82:18; 91:10; Is 41:11) J 3:16; 17:12. ἀπολέσθαι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα perish forever 10:28 (Bar 3:3 ἡμεῖς ἀπολλύμενοι τὸν αἰῶνα). ἀνόμως ἀ. Ro 2:12; μωρῶς ἀ. IEph 17:2 (cp. ἀσκόπως Just., D. 8, 4); ἐν καυχήσει because of boasting ITr 4:1; cp. IPol 5:2. Abs. 1 Cor 8:11; 15:18; 2 Cl 17:1.—οἱ ἀπολλύμενοι (opp. οἱ σῳζόμενοι, as in Plut., Mor. 469d) those who are lost 1 Cor 1:18; 2 Cor 2:15; 4:3; 2 Th 2:10; 2 Cl 1:4; 2:5. For this τὸ ἀπολωλός Lk 19:10 (Mt 18:10 v.l.—Ezk 34:4, 16). τὰ ἀπολλύμενα 2 Cl 2:7 (cp. SIG 417, 9 τὰ τε ἀπολωλότα ἐκ τ. ἱεροῦ ἀνέσωσαν). S. also 3b end.
β. of things be lost, pass away, be ruined (Jos., Bell. 2, 650 of Jerusalem; Tat. 17, 2 πάθος … ἀπολλύμενον) of bursting wineskins Mt 9:17; Mk 2:22; Lk 5:37; fading beauty Js 1:11; transitory beauty of gold
1 Pt 1:7. AcPl Ha 2, 24; [χρυσὸς]| γὰρ ἀπόλλυται 9:8f; passing splendor Rv 18:14 (w. ἀπό as Jer 10:11; Da 7:17). Of earthly food J 6:27; spoiled honey Hm 5, 1, 5; σαρκὸς ἀπολλυμένης AcPlCor 2:15. Of the heavens which, like the earth, will pass away Hb 1:11 (Ps 101:27). Of the end of the world Hv 4, 3, 3, Of the way of the godless, which is lost in darkness B 11:7 (Ps 1:6). μὴ … τὸ μνημόσυνον [ὑμῶν]| ἀπόλιτε (read ἀπόληται) AcPl Ha 1, 22f.
② to fail to obtain what one expects or anticipates, lose out on, lose (X., Pla.+; PPetr III, 51, 5; POxy 743, 23; PFay 111, 3ff; Sir 6:3; 9:6; 27:16 al.; Tob 7:6 BA; 4 Macc 2:14; Tat. 8, τὸν ἐρώμενον; 15, 1) τ. μισθόν lose the reward Mt 10:42; Mk 9:41; Hs 5, 6, 7. δραχμήν (Dio Chrys. 70 [20], 25) Lk 15:8f; ἀ. ἃ ἠργασάμεθα lose what we have worked for 2J 8. διαθήκην B 4:7, 8. τὴν ζωὴν τ. ἀνθρώπων Hm 2:1; cp. Hs 8, 6, 6; 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 2f and 5. τὴν ἐλπίδα m 5, 1, 7.
③ to lose someth. that one already has or be separated from a normal connection, lose, be lost
ⓐ act. w. colloq. flavor ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκέν μοι μή ἀπολέσω ἐξ αὐτοῦ that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me J 6:39 (B-D-F §466, 3 on Semitic assoc.; Rob. 437; 753).—ἀ. τὴν ψυχήν (cp. Sir 20:22) lose one’s life Mt 10:39; 16:25; Mk 8:35; Lk 9:24; 17:33; cp. J 12:25. For this ἀ. ἑαυτόν lose oneself Lk 9:25 (similar in form is Tyrtaeus [VII b.c.], Fgm. 8 Diehl2 lines 11–14: ‘One who risks his life in battle has the best chance of saving it; one who flees to save it is most likely to lose it’).
ⓑ mid. (Antiphon: Diels, Vorsokrat. 87, Fgm. 54 ἀπολόμενον ἀργύριον; X., Symp. 1, 5; 1 Km 9:3; Tat. 9, 2) ISm 10:1. Of falling hair Lk 21:18; Ac 27:34; a member or organ of the body Mt 5:29f; remnants of food J 6:12. Of wine that has lost its flavor Hm 12, 5, 3.— Of sheep gone astray Mt 10:6; 15:24; Lk 15:4, 6; B 5:12 (cp. Jer 27:6; Ezk 34:4; Ps 118:176). Of a lost son Lk 15:24 (Artem. 4, 33 ἡ γυνὴ … τ. υἱὸν ἀπώλεσε καὶ … εὗρεν αὐτόν); of humanity in general ἀπολλύμενος ἐζητήθη ἵνα ζωοποιηθῇ διὰ τῆς υἱοθεσίας when lost, humanity was sought, so that it might regain life through acceptance into sonship AcPlCor 2:8 (cp. 1bα.—JSchniewind, D. Gleichn. vom verl. Sohn ’40). ἀ. θεῷ be lost to God Hs 8, 6, 4 (cod. A for ἀπέθανον).—B. 758. DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.[1]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000).
Link to earlier edition. http://lareopage.free.fr/a&g/main.htm (3rd ed., pp. 115–116). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

 

[ClementofA]

Why did you quote this verse about "destruction" when you believe in"universal reconciliation?"

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias,
often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible.
Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

Перевод ὄλεθρος с греческого на все языки

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

Compare that above statement to:

"In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5). He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Here we see destruction was temporary:

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)



Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[Der Alte]

A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:
"...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

Quoting one ancient Greek does not a consensus make.

As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other
Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)

https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

One reference to one ancient Greek writer does not a consensus make.

ὄλεθρος, ου, ὁ (ὄλλυμι ‘destroy’; Hom.+; SIG 527, 82 [c. 220 B.C.]; BGU 1027 XXVI, 11; LXX; PsSol 8:1; TestReub 4:6; 6:3; Philo; Jos., Ant. 17, 38, Vi. 264; SibOr 3, 327; 348)
① a state of destruction, destruction, ruin, death in our lit. always w. some kind of transcendent coloring (hostile spirits work ἐπʼ ὀλέθρῳ τοῦ γένους τῶν ἀνθρώπων Orig., C. Cels. 8, 54, 32): ἔρχεταί τινι ὄλ. ruin comes upon someone 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26). αἰφνίδιος αὐτοῖς ἐφίσταται ὄλ. sudden destruction will come upon them 1 Th 5:3. βυθίζειν τινὰ εἰς ὄλ. plunge someone headlong into ruin 1 Ti 6:9. ὄλ. αἰώνιος eternal death (TestReub 6:3) 2 Th 1:9 (s. ὀλέθριος).
② act of destruction, destruction παραδοῦναί τινα τῷ σατανᾷ εἰς ὄλ. τῆς σαρκός hand someone over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh 1 Cor 5:5 (handing over to Satan will result in the sinner’s death.—EvDobschütz, Die urchristl. Gemeinden 1902, 269–72; Lietzmann, Hdb. ’49, 28; and s. παραδίδωμι 1b.—Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby). Destruction brought about by Satan is mentioned also IEph 13:1 ὅταν πυκνῶς ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ γίνεσθε, καθαιροῦνται αἱ δυνάμεις τοῦ σατανᾶ καὶ λύεται ὁ ὄλ. αὐτοῦ when you come together frequently, the (spirit-) powers of Satan are destroyed, and his destructiveness is nullified.—DELG s.v. ὄλλυμι. M-M. TW.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 702). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.​

... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5). He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

Only temporary for the flesh.

Here we see destruction was temporary:
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

If Jesus did not raise it, it would be permanent.

1 Cor.3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This a favorite verse UR-ites like to quote out-of-context trying make it say all mankind will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;​

This entire passage is addressed to a certain group; laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ NOT all mankind.
"no man,""any man,""every man," from vs. 9 to 17 refers to that same group.
Vs. 15 does not suddenly refer to all mankind.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, [foundation of Christ vs. 12] he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

We can plainly see that vs. 15 does not state or imply that all mankind will be saved no matter what because vs. 17 says that any man who defiles the temple will be destroyed NOT saved.

 

[ClementofA]

Quoting one ancient Greek does not a consensus make.

The aim was to defuse the bomb of annihilationism/infernalism, not make a consensus.

This a favorite verse UR-ites like to quote out-of-context trying make it say all mankind will be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;​

This entire passage is addressed to a certain group; laborers together with God, God's husbandry, God's building, who build on the foundation of Jesus Christ NOT all mankind.
"no man,""any man,""every man," from vs. 9 to 17 refers to that same group.
Vs. 15 does not suddenly refer to all mankind.

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, [foundation of Christ vs. 12] he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

We can plainly see that vs. 15 does not state or imply that all mankind will be saved no matter what because vs. 17 says that any man who defiles the temple will be destroyed NOT saved.

The question is, what does it mean to be "destroy(ed") v.17 & are destroyed ones described earlier in the context (v.15) by "he shall suffer loss". The same verse saying "but he himself shall be saved".

Annihilationists assume destroy means annihilated forever, never to live again. But v.17 doesn't say that. So to inject it in there is merely an interpretation, an opinion, not a thus sayeth the Lord.

The English word "destroy" has various meanings. It need not mean endless annihilation. For example, a car that is destroyed can be repaired. A King whose soul is destroyed so much that he eats grass like an animal for 7 years can be restored (see Daniel, OT, Bible). An alcoholic who destroys his health, relationships & mind(soul) with booze can be restored to health, restored in his relationships with others & restored to a sound mind(soul).

So, again,when annihilationists simply quote a verse & make the unsupported, unproven & unwarranted - assumption - about it & the word "destroyed", that it supports their view, they do not have a "proof text" for their viewpoint, but merely a human opinion. Not a thus sayeth the Lord.

And why would Love Omnipotent want to resort to endless annihilation? It makes no sense.

Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

1 Cor 3:15 & universalism:
how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

 

[Jipsah]

To read John 17 (an extremely powerful prose about what the goal of the Gospel is) and have your only takeaway be immortality, then I'm afraid you are missing out!

Where'd the "only" come from? <Laugh>

I see it as a metaphor. To have eternal life is to KNOW GOD. It does not say live forever. To read the text literally would be to project eternal life into the distant future and not see that it is readily available NOW. You can have eternal life starting today! You can know God starting TODAY. Why read the text literally and miss out on the bigger blessing it is trying to convey?

So, all I see there is rhetorical flimflam. Whether eternal life began last Thuesday or 12 minutes after you die is irrelevant. The idea is that you are, and remain, alive. The alternative to eternal life is death, as in dead. The wages of sin is (say it with me) death. Not isolation from God (although being dead would accomplish that quite effectively), not alive but desperately unhappy, because you have to be alive to be happy, or sad, or indifferent. Dead is dead. The gift of God is eternal life. it's a gift, you see, not something we're all issued at birth. Some get it, and live forever. Some don't, and become (or, if you prefer, remain) dead. And when you're dead like that, you're erased from the timeline, end to end. God doesn't even remember you.("And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you"). If the Omniscient God never knew you, you never were. If you were still alive somewhere, He'd know it. If He never knew you, then you never really existed at all. That's a pretty effective eternal punishment, IMO. It may lack the fleshly appeal of being barbecued forever, but it means that no one will ever mourn over your fate, or that any trace of nastiness you may have perpetrated on earth will remain at all to ever stink up the perfection of God's universe.

 

[Jipsah]

That's the Annihilationist view. Are you an Annihilationist?

That's what I see our Lord saying, so yeah, I reckon I am.

 

[Jipsah]

The Bible does not say those that go to hell are destroyed.

Then why'd our Lord say that? Why say "Fear Him Who can destroy you" if that fear is baseless? Yeah, He can destroy you, but He won't. Nah, too thin.

What God created He certainly can destroy but there is not one single verse which says that even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell or anywhere else.

Interesting that our Lord should have spoken of it if it's never gonna happen.

 

[Der Alte]

Then why'd our Lord say that? Why say "Fear Him Who can destryoy you if that fear is baseless.? Yeah, He can destroy you, but He won't. Nah, too thin.
Interesting that our Lord should have spoken of it if it's never gonna happen.

I answered that same question from another poster in my post [#193]<= link, above.