Who Goes To Hell?

[ClementofA]

One can find a Bible "version" that will support almost any heterodox belief.
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios,” “kolasis,”and “Gehenna?”
…..Note, in the EOB, on pg. 180 is this footnote.

Hades is the realm of the dead, The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or “Abraham’s bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hel1l (Gehenna which is the find place or state of the damned (“the lake of fire”).​

Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
…..

Der Alter, why do you keep repeatedly posting the same erroneous material & never answer my response, as follows:

…..Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “αιωνιως/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

First, that Greek word aionios does not occur in 1 Tim.1:17. Secondly, nothing in the verses say they are "synonymous" with anything. Third, you simply state that without any reason, evidence, logic or proof to support it. You might as well have said "dog is synonymous with cat, they both have a tail". Let's see your evidence that dog = cat.

Your posts repeatedly assume a "contrast" somehow gave you a "definition". (Yet you never state how). That's like saying a sentence with a contrast between "eonian life" & "death" in it proves that "eonian" means "eternal". That's the level of your logic in your post. You assume as proven what you have failed to prove.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.

"The king of the underworld is immortal, cute, a killer, etc". To use your type of faulty reasoning/logic, since "immortal" is paired with "cute", cute must logically be defined as eternal. Wrong. And the king must be eternally cute. Wrong. And because immortal is paired with killer, the king must be eternally killing for all eternity. Wrong. And killer must be defined as eternal. Wrong.

In a post you committed the same error, saying: "Here Origen defines "aionios" as "eternal" by pairing it with "immortality." ". Same idea as my example above with the king of the underworld. Faulty logic. Faulty reasoning. Hence an unproven, unwarranted assumption.

continued next post...

 

[ClementofA]

The fact is, both aion and aionios were often used of finite duration in the ancient Koine Greek of the times of the NT and early church fathers. Consider the following evidence:

The same Greek word for "eternal", i.e. aionios, is also used by early church father Chrysostom of an obviously finite duration here:

"For that his[Satan's] kingdom is of this age,[αἰώνιος] i.e., will cease with the present age[αιώνι] ..." (Homily 4 on Ephesians, Chapter II. Verses 1-3). CHURCH FATHERS: Homily 4 on Ephesians (Chrysostom)

The Greek text may be found here:

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia...._In_epistulam_II_ad_Thessalonicenses,_MGR.pdf

In Philo is another example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

""Philo [20 BC - 50 AD, contemporary with Christ] used the exact phraseology we find in Matthew 25:46 - just as Christ used it - in the context of temporal affairs between people of different socio-economic classes:"

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment (kolasis aiónios) from such as are more powerful" (Fragmenta, Tom. ii., p. 667)."
That Happy Expectation: Eternal or Eonian? Part Five (The Greek Adjective Aiónios)

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct."
Philo: Appendix 2: Fragments

" "It is better not to promise than not to give prompt assistance, for no blame follows in the former case, but in the latter there is dissatisfaction from the weaker class, and a deep hatred and everlasting punishment [kolasis aiónios] from such as are more powerful." Here we have the exact terms employed by out Lord, to show that aiónion did not mean endless but did mean limited duration in the time of Christ."Kolasis

Here is another ancient Koine Greek example of aionios being finite, not "eternal":

"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "
Chapter Nine

Which is verified by the following:

https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

The original Greek he copied from the tablet is given at the url above, along with an English translation which was, in this case, “eternal and more than eternal and almighty…”

“…The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D. ; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century, that is to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible about the time of Origen.” [page 275ff]

Several more examples of the ancient Koine Greek word aionios not being "eternal" but of finite duration are as follows:

"In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time...."

"St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."

"Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.Chapter Nine

Early church father & universalist Origen's "insistence on punishment as a corrective is in direct response to accusations raised by Marcionite and Gnostic heretics of his time who accused God of cruelty and injustice (Sachs 625-626). By lifting voices from the scriptures that suggest that punishment is neither eternal nor without hope of providing correction, Origen hopes to show that the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament are not so divergent in character, but rather are one and the same and that God’s nature is good and loving." Apokatastasis in the Thought of Origen and Gregory of Nyssa -*BryceRich.net

Origen, born into a Koine Greek speaking culture & a Greek scholar, makes it clear that aionios punishment is not to be understood as everlasting or eternal punishment:

"There is a resurrection of the dead, and there is punishment, but not everlasting. For when the body is punished the soul is gradually purified, and so is restored to its ancient rank** For all wicked men, and for demons, too, punishment has an end, and both wicked men and demons shall be restored to their former rank 80"
Hell's Destruction

continued next post...

 

[ClementofA]

Origen sees the punishment of "eternal fire" (Mt.25:41) as remedial, corrective & temporary:

"Chapter 10. On the Resurrection, and the Judgment, the Fire of Hell, and Punishments."

"1. But since the discourse has reminded us of the subjects of a future judgment and of retribution, and of the punishments of sinners, according to the threatenings of holy Scripture and the contents of the Church's teaching— viz., that when the time of judgment comes, everlasting fire, and outer darkness, and a prison, and a furnace, and other punishments of like nature, have been prepared for sinners— let us see what our opinions on these points ought to be."

"...nevertheless in such a way, that even the body which rises again of those who are to be destined to everlasting fire or to severe punishments, is by the very change of the resurrection so incorruptible, that it cannot be corrupted and dissolved even by severe punishments. If, then, such be the qualities of that body which will arise from the dead, let us now see what is the meaning of the threatening of eternal fire."

"...And when this dissolution and rending asunder of soul shall have been tested by the application of fire, a solidification undoubtedly into a firmer structure will take place, and a restoration be effected."
CHURCH FATHERS: De Principiis, Book II (Origen)


Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

Greek text here:

http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/PG_Migne/Origenes_PG 11-17/Commentarii in evangelium Joannis.pdf

And again he indicates so called "everlasting(aionios/eonian) punishment" (Mt.25:46) is temporary:

"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)

Origen speaking of "after eternal life" and "beyond eternal life", is supported also by:

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika

Evagrius's Kephalaia Gnostika: A New Translation of the Unreformed Text from the Syriac (Writings from the Greco-Roman World), By Ilaria L.E. Ramelli (see pages 10- 11 at the url above).

Where again Origen refers to what is after eternal life, as well as after "the ages", beyond "ages of the ages" [often mistranslated forever & ever] and all ages.

https://www.amazon.com/Evagriuss-Kephalaia-Gnostika-Translation-Greco-Roman/dp/1628370394

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

Consider also whether aionios is finite in these Greek Old Testament passages:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)

Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)

They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)

He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)

’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios) decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)

Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)

And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)

When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)

Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)

Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

"The adjective aionios, in like manner, carries the idea of “time.” Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting, though they may acquire that sense by their connotation. Aionios means “enduring through or pertaining to a period of time.” Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"The same is true of aionios in the Septuagint. Out of 150 instances in the Septuagint, four-fifths imply limited duration".

"..."The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

"...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

"...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

"...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf

Word Studies in the New Testament

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

 

[Saint Steven]

"I will kindle an unquenchable fire in the gates of Jerusalem that will consume her fortresses." Jeremiah 17:27

You also have not and CANNOT prove how Jesus was using Gehenna. No one can without bringing their own presuppositions to the table. However all my claims have come from the Bible whereas you seem to only know how to quote from Jewish Encyclopedias. You are free to not believe me, I won't waste my time explaining the same things over and over again to you.

Yes.
Are the gates of Jerusalem still burning with this unquenchable fire?
Hmm... must be poetic exaggeration for effect. Like the fire of "hell".

 

[Der Alte]

...
First, that Greek word aionios does not occur in 1 Tim.1:17. Secondly, nothing in the verses say they are "synonymous" with anything. Third, you simply state that without any reason, evidence, logic or proof to support it. You might as well have said "dog is synonymous with cat, they both have a tail". Let's see your evidence that dog = cat.
Your posts repeatedly assume a "contrast" somehow gave you a "definition". (Yet you never state how). That's like saying a sentence with a contrast between "eonian life" & "death" in it proves that "eonian" means "eternal". That's the level of your logic in your post. You assume as proven what you have failed to prove....

I don't answer you posts because I am not interested in your answers.
My posts are as much for others as they are for you. I want others to see the traditional view not just he UR view. So as long as UR-ites post their views I will post mine.
Most of your answers are no more than "I'm right and your's wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!
Contrast often does define a word. Hot is not cold. Up is not down. Full is not empty.
I think I gave you my experience having a word defined for me in German. In Germany having a conversation in German. The lady I was talking to did not speak English. She used the word "beinahe." I didn't understand it. She explained "Es ist noch nicht elf uhr aber es ist beinahe elf uhr." "It is not yet eleven o'clock but it is beinahe eleven o'clock" So from that defining sentence I understood "beinahe" meant "almost."
As for the word "define" or "definition" not being used may I remind you of FL's post.

Aionios kolasis in not temporary: it is not a time word. Aionios zoe is also not a time word.
Again: The adjective aionios is rooted in the noun aion. It holds no scope beyond the root upon which it stands.
And again: The Apostle John defines aionios in 9 (nine) words > >
"This IS aionios zoe that we may know You.."

Should we tell FL that John was not defining "aionios" because he did not use the word defining?
Now as for "aionios" not occurring in 1 Tim.1:17 see FL's comment directly above.

…

 

[ClementofA]

Contrast often does define a word.

It often does not define a word. So for you to simply say there is a contrast & then claim it is proven that aionion means (or is defined) as "eternal" does not prove your point. This is quite elementary stuff. Evidently you've never taken any courses in logic.

I think I gave you my experience having a word defined for me in German. In Germany having a conversation in German. The lady I was talking to did not speak English. She used the word "beinahe." I didn't understand it. She explained "Es ist noch nicht elf uhr aber es ist beinahe elf uhr." "It is not yet eleven o'clock but it is beinahe eleven o'clock" So from that defining sentence I understood "beinahe" meant "almost."

Here is a real life example. In the early '60s I was speaking to someone in German. She used a word that I didn't understand "beinahe" pronounce by-nah-eh. I told her I did not understand she said "Es ist noch nicht elf uhr aber beinahe elf uhr." "It is not yet eleven o'clock but blank eleven o'clock." I understood that "beinahe" meant "almost." She defined the word "beinahe" but she did not say "This is the definition."

She didn't define any word. You just luckily guessed the meaning, like doing a crossword puzzle. Your guess could have been wrong. What if beinahe meant "one hour before" or many other possibilities. What if she was a crazy person & the meaning of beinahe was "past".

 

[Der Alte]

Yes.
Are the gates of Jerusalem still burning with this unquenchable fire?
Hmm... must be poetic exaggeration for effect. Like the fire of "hell".

Jeremiah 17:27 Doesn't say that the gates of Jerusalem would burn forever only that the fire was unquenchable. When God kindled that fire all the men in Israel could not put it out, only God could quench the fire.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

"That threats of aionios punishment are helpful for those immature who abstain from evil out of fear and not for love is repeated, e.g. in CC 6,26: "it is not helpful to go up to what will come beyond that punishment, for the sake of those who restrain themselves only with much difficulty, out of fear of the aionios punishment"; Hom. in Jer. 20 (19), 4: for a married woman it is better to believe that a faithless woman will undergo aionios punishment and keep faithful, rather than knowing the truth and becoming disloyal;" (p.178-9 in "The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena" by Ilaria Ramelli, Brill, 2013, 890 p.)

With the utmost respect to Origen et al, I suggest this doctrine of oeconomy was problematic. The fathers didn't trust that the ppl could handle the truth, and more to the point, that the outcome was not left in good faith to God. For as is written 'a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.' This dubious practice opened the door a crack for the devil to drive through the error of damnation.

and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists",

Justinian and his apparently uxorious queen are criticised with gusto by restorationists. There's got to be a watershed ecclesiological moment there around the 5th Ecumenical Council. Do you know of any good studies about how the devil jumped up during Justinian's reign?

 

[ClementofA]

Jeremiah 17:27 Doesn't say that the gates of Jerusalem would burn forever only that the fire was unquenchable. When God kindled that fire all the men in Israel could not put it out, only God could quench the fire.

So the so-called "unquenchable" fire is quenchable?

In your opinion does that make God a liar?

"Just as a sidenote, the most persuasive Christian arguments on this subject I have come across have stated that these verses in Isaiah and similar verses refer to the fact that God's judgment is irresistible (e.g., unquenchable fire refers to a fire that humans cannot prevent..."

www.reddit.com/r/judaism/comments/yhrwa/question_about_jewish_apocalyptic_scriptures/

Mark 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

"Let us see how the word "asbestos (unquenchable) was used by the Greeks. Strabo calls it the lamp in the Parthenon, and Plutarch calls the sacred fire of a temple "unquenchable," though they were extinguished long ago. Josephus, the Jewish Priest who saw the destruction of Jerusalem says that the fire on the altar of the temple at Jerusalem was "always unquenchable" abeston aei, yet he was there when the fire on the altar was forever extinguished. Eusibius, the church historian who lived in Constantine's day says that certain martyrs of Alexandria "were burned in unquenchable fire." The fire was put out within an hour! Homer speaks of "unquenchable laughter" asbestos gelos, (Iliad, I: 599)"

Bible Threatening Explained

Mark 9:48
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Nothing there says they stay in Gehenna for endless ages, so can't come out. Neither does it say that while in Gehenna there is no salvation. In the book of Revelation the gates into the city of God are always open. God says He is making "all" new (21:5).

Unquenchabe is limited not endless...ancient examples given here:

A Key to Universalism


"Mark 9:43: "into Gehenna, into the unextinguished fire." First, the word "unquenchable" in the Bible is translated from the Greek word asbestos which simply means "not quenched." In itself, that is not the same as "not ABLE to be quenched" or "unquenchable." It is similar to God's judgments being without appeal "until they have finished all his plans:"

"The fierce anger of the LORD will not diminish until it has finished all his plans. In the days to come, you will understand all this.."(Jer 30:24)."

"Now, salt too, just as the divine fire, is associated with the eschatological test in Mark 9:49, a text I have already analysed, where this fire is presented as purifying and performing the disinfecting function of salt: “all will be salted by this fire,” if they have lost their salt in this life." (Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp., p.53)

"Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there [Gehenna] until you have paid up the last cent. The word - until - unmistakably confirms Gehenna is of a limited duration. Once the penalty is exacted, release follows, but not before. Note He addressed these words to a mixed audience of believers and unbelievers (Mt. 5:1;7:28; 8:1). (See also Mt. 18:34-35)." http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

 

[ClementofA]

Justinian and his apparently uxorious queen are criticised with gusto by restorationists. There's got to be a watershed ecclesiological moment there around the 5th Ecumenical Council. Do you know of any good studies about how the devil jumped up during Justinian's reign?

Not off the top of my head, though from what little history i've read around that time, baby burner Augustine was a prime mover.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Not off the top of my head, though from what little history i've read around that time, baby burner Augustine was a prime mover.

Augustine: patron saint of eternal damnation. Casts a long shadow over his beneficial work.

Thomas Allin spends a bit of time on Justinian's implementing Augustine's hellfire dogma, but I haven't seen anything yet really devoted to the panoply of methods employed during his reign which really (far as I can tell) turned the worm for the Church (both spiritual and temporal), from light and life to Latin death cult. I'll do some in-depth research one of these days, d.v..

 

[thomas_t]

Reconciliation of ta pavnte is not my idea Thomas.

you have no verse to show, FL. It's your theology. Maybe it's right. Maybe not.

The Lord Isous declares He will draw all mankind unto Himself. That He will surely do!

In my opinion, it's your presumption that he will. Bible discussions should be based on scripture, not on presumtion, please. Let's talk Bible! I can have presumptions in the secular world.

as He brings the same radical all into at-one-ment with Himself.

presumption, I think. Jesus offered salvation to all (see below).
It's like being offered a sandwich to people, I think. When they don't take, they don't have it.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Thanks Steve for the verse:
But the Greek version contains no verb in Romans 5:18. Hence the "resulted in" is added. It's presumption. In my opinion, you could fill in "provides an offer for" instead.
Adding words to the Bible, in my opinion, always means taking a risk. You can translate in a way that it becomes modern day English, but why not add a little asterisc saying that the "resulted in" is not found in the text.

And Romans 5:19 does not speak about "all people" as in 5:18... it speaks about "the many". Paul did not say "these many"... when he could have. Maybe, Paul used "the" instead of "these" for esthetical reasons to have a nice language in Greek. Maybe not. In short: it is as @Der Alter (that's a funny German name) stated in #264 and in #265: it is not the same word as used in the verse before. It changed.

Revelations 1:18 merely says, Jesus has the keys. Yes he has indeed.
For your other two verses... please see below:

1 Corinthians 15:25-28: For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Your first verse does not teach anything even close to Universal Reconsiliation, as you suggest.
The second verse is interesting though. You seem to think that when Jesus draws somebody near... they autmoatically end up in heaven eternally.
Does "drawing somebody" really mean that the drawer and the drawed person will be close to each other through all eternities?
"to draw somebody" was used seven more times in the Bible. There is not one occurance in which the two people remained in contact for ever and ever. The contact was quickly resoved each time. See Strong's Greek: 1670. ἑλκύω (helkó) -- to drag .
Revelation 20:14. Ironically, you use a version containing the word "hell" yourself. However, you previously stated there are four different types of them? You've said so in your same post.

he will "wipe away every tear. There will be no more mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

So let's consider a situation in which all tears have been wiped away. Now you want perpetrators in heaven. What if they would cause new tears?
You can't rule that out in your theology, though.
You say that lion and lamb lie together in Isaiah 11. This, according to you, supports Universal Reconciliation.

As I see it, it could be that this passage hints at Christian lions lying together with Christian lambs.
Isaiah 11 never said: every lion will lie together with the sheep.

 

[FineLinen]

you have no verse to show, FL. It's your theology. Maybe it's right. Maybe not.

In my opinion, it's your presumption that he will. Bible discussions should be based on scripture, not on presumtion, please. Let's talk Bible! I can have presumptions in the secular world.

Dear Thomas: I trust you are not betting your life on it (although we would be shocked to think you are a gambler) lol.

Ta pavnte is the foundation for not only the radical all of pas, but the super radical "the all".

Please turn to Romans 11:36 in whatever Bible you prefer. Please note the scope of ta pavnte.

Romans 11:36 - Bible Gateway

From Him, the all

Through Him, the all.

To Him, the all.

 

[thomas_t]

Ta pavnte is the foundation for not only the radical all of pas, but the super radical the all.

English please. It's an English site.

 

[agapelove]

Your first verse does not teach anything even close to Universal Reconsiliation, as you suggest.

I was not trying to "teach" universal reconciliation I was simply providing the scriptures you had asked for? But since you seem interested in the topic... what does God being "all in all" mean to you?

Revelation 20:14. Ironically, you use a version containing the word "hell" yourself. However, you previously stated there are four different types of them? You've said so in your same post.

You're right, sorry for being lazy. I assumed everyone would know what the verse originally said. "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

So let's consider a situation in which all tears have been wiped away. Now you want perpetrators in heaven. What if they would cause new tears?
You can't rule that out in your theology, though.

Sorry but that's not possible. It is stated in Revelation 21:27 that "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false." All those who wish to enter the New Jerusalem must first "wash their robes and make themselves white in the blood of the Lamb." (Revelation 7:14)

You say that lion and lamb lie together in Isaiah 11. This, according to you, supports Universal Reconciliation.

As I see it, it could be that this passage hints at Christian lions lying together with Christian lambs.
Isaiah 11 never said: every lion will lie together with the sheep.

Again I made no mention of universal reconciliation. I simply said it was a symbol of peace between victims and perpetrators as to address your assumption that God would ignore all need for justice.

And you should take your own advice and leave your presumptions at the door. There is nothing that hints at the lions and lambs being Christians. They are animals.

 

[thomas_t]

what does God being "all in all" mean to you?

This is too high a topic. I can't grasp God.

It is stated in Revelation 21:27 that "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false."

this is heavenly Jerusalem. It's my guess there will be a heavenly Bamberg, too (that's my town here in Germany).
So, I think that your stance offers too little for the protection of the former victims. You would let them suffer, I guess?
Or do you think that all former victims must not leave heavenly Jerusalem for fear of falling vidtim to the perpetrators again? So you say: Jerusalem for the victims... the rest of heaven for the perpetrators? is that your logic? You say, the victims must be taken into consideration, too. But I didn't see one single remark in your post that would ensure the safety of the victims if true.

I simply said it was a symbol of peace between victims and perpetrators as to address your assumption that God would ignore all need for justice.

And you should take your own advice and leave your presumptions at the door. There is nothing that hints at the lions and lambs being Christians. They are animals.

Look, there is nothing in the text that said: every lion will lie down with lambs. So don't make it look so, please.

EDITED

 

[agapelove]

This is too high a topic. I can't grasp God.

this is heavenly Jerusalem. It's my guess there will be a heavenly Bamberg, too (that's my town here in Germany).
So, I stay with my position that your stance offers nothing for the protection of the former victims. You would let them suffer, I guess?
Or do you think that all former victims must not leave heavenly Jerusalem for fear of falling vidtim to the perpetrators again? So you say: Jerusalem for the victims... the rest of heaven for the perpetrators? is that your logic? You say, the victims must be taken into consideration, too. But I didn't see one single remark in your post that would ensure the safety of the victims if true.

I guess you also cannot grasp that the New Jerusalem is the equivalent of Heaven in Revelations.

 

[thomas_t]

the New Jerusalem is the equivalent of Heaven in Revelations.

This in my opinion is your guess. You have nothing to back it up, I think.

 

[agapelove]

This in my opinion is your guess. You have nothing to back it up, I think.

I think you should read Revelations and then get back to me.

 

[Saint Steven]

it is as ... Der Alter (that's a funny German name) stated...

Please tell me what is funny about it. What does it mean? Thanks.