Changing Times.

[Blade]

I am guessing this is for no debate.. seems that way. So all I can say is.. there are many given reasons (history shows proves this) for some things we hold true today. Why some focus mainly on just one of those ways(beliefs?).. I don't know.

"He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws." First.. are you trying to apply what God said through Daniel to Constantine? For me...please not here to offend.. like hearing "does not mean it wasn't about".. yeah sure...we can say that but.. does not make it true. Just for me its out of context.

Do we believe Constantine wanted Christians to worship a false god? I never got that. So there was no one else that talked about the Sabbath and what day, before Constantine?

So.. I'm confused here. Many things are being quoted from one group yet.. that same group has said other things about Sabbath dating farther back. Why some other famous people even Jewish leaders.. are not be quoted.

So me.. want to keep all the feast and Friday-sundown Sat.. praise GOD. ... Jesus is so real.. the Father.. the sweet sweet holy Spirit.. oh man praise GOD Love Him so much..

Speaking of God.. i watched today this Jewish woman talk about how she found Jesus. It was .. wow made me cry to many times. The same old story .. Jews can believe almost anything but the second you say JESUS.. NO NO NO! When she started talking about what happen.. and "I know it was Jesus".. she stopped and cried.. so beautiful. The change.. not the outside.. alll the inside pain suffering.. gone.. Song.. oh how He loves you and me...

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Separating ordinances which the legal country determines is different than the TEN which God wrote. Moses wrote on parchment from which you get the disobedient children rule. That is not in the TEN which God wrote.

So you select the part of the Torah you will follow and which you will abandon?

 

[HARK!]

So you select the part of the Torah you will follow and which you will abandon?

Is that what you do; or maybe you reject it all; or maybe you accept it all. Which is it?

"They worked on Sunday, but kept Saturday in a sabbatical manner...These things Margaret abolished" - A History of Scotland from the Roman Occupation, speaking of Queen Margaret's (a Catholic) decree.

 

[ViaCrucis]

He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws.

Constantine decreed (March 7, 321) dies Solis—day of the sun, "Sunday"—as the Roman day of rest just prior to the Council of Nicaea:

“On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for grain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.”

Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ. (Canon 29 [A.D. 360]). (The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE)

"The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third (fourth) Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day." The Catholic Encyclopedia Topic: Ten Commandments, 2nd paragraph

"We have made the change from the seventh day to the first day, from Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy, catholic, apostolic church of Christ."--Episcopalian Bishop Seymour said in "Why We Keep Sunday."

SHABBAT SHALOM!

Still preaching what you already know to be false I see.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Is this law also no longer in place

Exodus 20 King James Version (KJV)

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Or only the fourth of the ten is no longer in place?

How many Amalekites have you personally slain?

"Therefore when the LORD your God has given you rest from all your enemies around you, in the land that the LORD your God is giving you for an inheritance to possess, you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you shall not forget." - Deuteronomy 25:19

-CryptoLutheran

 

[visionary]

So you select the part of the Torah you will follow and which you will abandon?

There are weightier matters which Yeshua alluded to, and if you know the laws, you know who they apply to, who has the authority, and who are responsible for, and who must obey which. A man can not follow the dictates that are for women, nor a woman for the man. Children are expected different things than are adults. Some things have to do with everyone, some things do not, but are specific for certain groups.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

There are weightier matters which Yeshua alluded to, and if you know the laws, you know who they apply to, who has the authority, and who are responsible for, and who must obey which. A man can not follow the dictates that are for women, nor a woman for the man. Children are expected different things than are adults. Some things have to do with everyone, some things do not, but are specific for certain groups.

Yes the law requires this of the parents that they bring their disobediant sons to the elders and proclaim him so. Then the whole town is to stone the child so I don't think you can get off with a technicality. If you are advocating the Torah law, then advocate all of it, without mercy and without qualification.

I think however you are only advocating those parts of the law you like, while ignoring other parts of it. What excuse is there for not stoning certain sons? Surely this is what your God expects of you, no?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Is that what you do; or maybe you reject it all; or maybe you accept it all. Which is it?

Like yourself Hark, there are certain parts of the Torah which are applicable in the past but not today. At least I don't pretend to follow all the proscriptions laid down in it.

 

[HARK!]

there are certain parts of the Torah which are applicable in the past but not today.

Such as?

John Wesley- The Works of the Rev. John Wesley "But, the moral law contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, he [Christ] did not take away. It was not the design of his coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken .... Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other." (Wesley was a Methodist)

 

[HARK!]

Still preaching what you already know to be false I see.

How's that?

"The Sabbath instituted in the beginning and confirmed again and again by Moses and the Prophets, has never been abrogated. A part of the moral law, not a part or tittle of its sanctity has been taken away."- New York Herald 1874, on the Methodist Episcopal Bishops Pastoral 1874.

 

[HARK!]

Yes the law requires this of the parents that they bring their disobediant sons to the elders and proclaim him so.

If you were exiled from the U.S.; do you have the authority to enforce U.S. law in a foreign land?


Another Methodist, Dwight L. Moody- Weighed and Wanting, The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God Wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"

 

[HARK!]

How many Amalekites have you personally slain?

If you were exiled from the U.S.; do you have the authority to enforce U.S. law in a foreign land?


"It seems to have been customary in the Celtic churches of early times, in Ireland as well as Scotland, to keep Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath, as a day of rest from labour. They obeted the fourth commandment literally upon the seventh day of the week." - Professor James C. Moffat, DD., Professor of Church History at Princeton.; from The Church in Scotland, pp140.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you were exiled from the U.S.; do you have the authority to enforce U.S. law in a foreign land?

So if local law didn't forbid it, and you had total freedom to do so, would you kill the Amalekite if you saw one?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[GodsGrace101]

I suppose we shouldn't have a nuanced view of Constantine. We should use a single coin as evidence of his true beliefs and ignore everything else he said and did. He favoured the Church, he demolished pagan temples when he had the chance, that he got baptized on his deathbed, that he got rid of Pagan sacrifices and wanted to foster unity amongst Christians in the empire. Sounds like a totally dedicated pagan to me.

I'm willing to admit that Constantine wasn't perfect in either his devotion or moral life, but you really miss the wider context of his life when you isolate him like this based on one thing. It would be like saying Augustine was a Manichean heretic, but then you proceed to ignore everything he did after his conversion to Christianity.

I do believe Augustine took his gnostic views with him. He was a member of the Manichaen sect for 10 years or so.

 

[GodsGrace101]

In verse 19, Paul refers to του theou. This is a reference to YHWH, not Yahshua.

Lutheran- Dr. Augustus Neander, The History of the Christian Religion and Church (1843)"The festival of Sunday, like all other festivals, was always only a human ordinance, and it was far from the intentions of the apostles to establish a Divine command in this respect, far from them, and from the early apostolic Church, to transfer the laws of the Sabbath to Sunday."

I know Romans 1:19-20 refers to Yaweh and not Yeshua. I'm forgetting my train of thought and don't have enough time to go back to check....

 

[GodsGrace101]

John Theodore Mueller (a Lutheran) - Sabbath or Sunday- "But they err in teaching that Sunday has taken the place of the Old Testament Sabbath and therefore must be kept as the seventh day had to be kept by the children of Israel .... These churches err in their teaching, for Scripture has in no way ordained the first day of the week in place of the Sabbath. There is simply no law in the New Testament to that effect."

Maybe Mueller believes THEY erred....
But the Apostolic Fathers did not.

Who do you trust more?

 

[HARK!]

Maybe Mueller believes THEY erred....
But the Apostolic Fathers did not.

Who do you trust more?

Do you have any proof that the Apostles changed YHWH's appointed times?

Dr. Hefele, Concilliengesch 3, 512, sec. 362 about the Council of Liftinae, Belgium AD 745 (attended by Boniface)- "The third allocution of this council warns against the observance of the Sabbath, referring to the decree of the council of Laodicea"

 

[HARK!]

I know Romans 1:19-20 refers to Yaweh and not Yeshua. I'm forgetting my train of thought and don't have enough time to go back to check....

Dr. Hefele, Concilliengesch 4, 346-352, sec 478 quoting Pope Nicholas I answer to a question from Bogaris the prince of Bulgaria- "One is to cease from work on Sunday, but not also on the Sabbath" /On the subject of the same letter- "The head of the Greek Church , offended at the interference of the papacy, declared the Pope ex-communicated"- Truth Triumphant pp 232

 

[GodsGrace101]

The apostles never taught worshipping on Sunday. There was no reason to.

I stated "those that were taught by the Apostles"...
However, we cannot know for sure that the Apostles themselves did not worship on Sunday due to statements such as the following:
Colossians 2:16-17

I was speaking about the Apostolic and ECFs...
Such as Ignatius, who was taught by Peter and John.

Here is what he said:

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 8-10 (c. 110 A.D.)
"Do not be deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths, since they are worthless. For if we continue to live accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace. For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by His grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased Him who sent Him. If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and His death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher, how can we possibly live without Him, whom even the prophets, who were His disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? Because of this He for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when He came. Therefore let us not be unaware of His goodness. For if He were to imitate the way we act, we are lost. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live in accordance with Christianity. For whoever is called by any other name than this one does not belong to God. Throw out, therefore, the bad leaven, which has become stale and sour, and reach for the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted with Him, so that none of you become rotten, for by your odor you will be examined. It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, in which "every tongue" believed and "was brought together" to God." (10)

source: The Early Church Fathers and the Sabbath


and there's more....if you check the above link.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Do you have any proof that the Apostles changed YHWH's appointed times?

Dr. Hefele, Concilliengesch 3, 512, sec. 362 about the Council of Liftinae, Belgium AD 745 (attended by Boniface)- "The third allocution of this council warns against the observance of the Sabbath, referring to the decree of the council of Laodicea"

See my post no. 99.
Do you know the difference between
The Apostles
and
The Apostolic Fathers??

It doesn't seem so.