Who Goes To Hell?

[Der Alte]

Mazel Tov. Because it does not matter. There are those who believe they have archeological evidence that a fire burned there in the days of Jesus. But it does not matter - because Gehenna was in Jerusalem and became a symbol of everlasting punishment in sheol/hades, the abode of the dead (which was not in Jerusalem).
Samuel was also in sheol/hades when king Saul got the medium to bring him up, but Samuel was not experiencing everlasting punishment/Gehenna in sheol/hades.
You have conflated two different concepts, and the facts in the encyclopedias which you mentioned are irrefutable proof that Gehenna (everlasting punishment) and sheol/hades are not the same concept. One is the abode of the dead, the other is a place in Jerusalem which symbolizes everlasting punishment.
Death and hades/the abode of the dead are the two sides of the same coin. It's THE SAME coin....

It does matter when someone either ignores and/or misrepresents my post.
Here is it again.
The serious reader will note that shortly after the Israelites sacrificed their children to Moloch in Ge Hinnom, valley of Hinnom, "'Gehenna' therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."
Later in the article The Jews refer to sheol as "hell." One place two different names.
"When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them.

Jewish Encyclopedia,Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.

​

 

[ClementofA]

Here is all the evidence necessary to refute this entire argument.
.....Greek is now and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “a??????/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “a?d???/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[???as?? a??????/kolasin aionion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [te a?d???/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [t?? a?????/ton aionon] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
....

I already addressed that same material here:

First, what makes a translation literal? Wait, don't tell me that is a version that supports UR teaching.
If one were to actually study Jewish and Greek history one might learn that Hebrew had no superlatives so to emphasize a word, the word was doubled. The name of this figure of speech is "Epezeuxis."
An early example of this is Gen 2:17 where God told Adam "In the day that you eat of the fruit you will surely die. In Hebrew that is "Muth t'muth." "dying you will die."
Greek is now and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking EOB translators, knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios” and “kolasis?”
Note, in the EOB, Paul uses “a??????/aionios,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “a?d???/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[???as?? a??????/kolasin aionion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [te a?d???/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [t?? a?????/ton aionon] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

That is just a discombobulated compilation of unrelated info with misleading translations of Mt.25:46 & Rom.1:20. Is there a point to it all? Perhaps this rather unrelated remark at the end:

In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionios" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.

In 1 Tim.1:17 the word aidios does not appear & Paul says nothing in 1 Tim.1:17 about Rom.1:20, except in an imaginary fantasy universe.

As for the word "immortal" occuring in the same verse with aionon, so what? That doesn't prove aionion is of the same duration as immortality. In fact, if anything, quite the opposite, since that would be redundant info which was useless to add. If aionion meant eternal there, then to say He is eternal would mean of course that He can't die so has immortality, so to state He has immortality right after that would be a waste of space.

Moreover the Greek word in 1 Tim.1:17 is aionon (meaning ages), not aionios as you typed.

As to your proficiency in Greek, remember this:

In order for the phrase to be correctly translated "to the king of the ages" the noun βασιλει/basilei must be in the genitive case, as it is in the 29 times it is translated
"king of" in the NT. And that is why the NIV and NET translate 1 Tim 1:17 "king eternal."

Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

"This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as
"to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."

 

[ClementofA]

Jewish Encyclopedia,Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.

​

Your post referenced both Judith and the Book of Enoch. What are those, if not extrabiblical myths, fables or legends which Scripture warns against? Can your alleged interpretations of Scripture by anti-Christian Jews also be considered myths that Jews have created from their own imaginations? Where do the OT Scriptures ever say anything even remotely resembling this: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." What are the original language words rendered "all eternity"? Is "all eternity" a mistranslation?

.....Jesus taught about "eternal punishment,"' hell where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched" etc. to Jews but He never corrected or criticized the Jewish belief in hell.

A worm not dying & unquenched fire does not equate in any sane, sound minded thinking individual (who has not been brainwashed) to "eternal punishment" where people are tortured for all eternity. Don't be ridiculous. Also see this re Mark 9:43-49 which you've never addressed or refuted, though posted to you many times before: Early church opposition to endless hell

If Jesus believed in "eternal punishment", why didn't He use the anti-Christian Jews words you quoted in your post, namely: "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17)." By Jesus' choice to reject using such words, does He - REJECT - that Jewish belief?

The book of Enoch and Judith and others not in the Christian canon are considered scripture by the Jews.

There's no Book of Enoch or Judith listed here:
The 24 Books of the Hebrew Bible • Torah.org

Judith an "Apocryphal book".
JUDITH, BOOK OF - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"Thus forms of the Books of Judith, Maccabees and Ben Sira, as well as parts of Wisdom of Solomon were familiar to Jewish scholars. But these works never achieved wide acceptance in Judaism and remained, to a greater or lesser extent, curiosities."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

"The oldest known Jewish work not included in the Bible is the Book of Enoch."
The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha

"The Book of Enoch...contradicts scripture, lies about biblical cosmology...and perverts God's mercy and plan of salvation" The Book of Enoch Debunked

"Although it was likely written by a Jewish person during the Second Temple Period, there is no evidence that the Book of Judith was ever considered authoritative or a candidate for canonicity by any Jewish group."

"The Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Bible does not contain it, nor was it found among the Dead Sea Scrolls or referred to in any early Rabbinic literature."
Sefer Yehudit - AbeBooks

"The content of the books of the Apocrypha is below that of canonical Scripture. Several of the books including Judith, Tobit, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon read like ***LEGENDS***. When one reads these books alongside canonical Scripture the differences become obvious." (emphasis, mine) Why Were the Books of the Old Testament Apocrypha Rejected as Holy Scripture by the Protestants?

Speaking of legends:

2 Timothy 4:4: And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14).

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[Der Alte]

I already addressed that same material here:

With the same empty rhetoric as this post.

That is just a discombobulated compilation of unrelated info with deceptive misleading translations of Mt.25:46 & Rom.1:20. Is there a point to it all? Perhaps this rather unrelated remark at the end:

You are criticizing as discombobulated etc, the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible which I quoted.
Greek is now and has always been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Church. Thus they know more than some guy you claim knows Greek. I know quite a few people who claim to know things they don't know.

In 1 Tim.1:17 the word aidios does not appear & Paul says nothing in 1 Tim.1:17 about Rom.1:20, except in an imaginary fantasy universe.

In Rom 1:20 God is referred to as aidios, by Paul. In Tim 1;17 God is referred to as aionios, by the same writer. Paul has used aionios as a synonym for aidios. Period end of discussion. Ask your guy who knows Greek.

As for the word "immortal" occuring in the same verse with aionon, so what? That doesn't prove aionion is of the same duration as immortality. In fact, if anything, quite the opposite, since that would be redundant info which was useless to add. If aionion meant eternal there, then to say He is eternal would mean of course that He can't die so has immortality, so to state He has immortality right after that would be a waste of space.

So here we have a person who probably could not parse a Greek verb if his life depended on it and probably doesn't know an aorist from an apple, criticizing Greek grammar.
It says what it says and you don't like it because it trashes UR.

Moreover the Greek word in 1 Tim.1:17 is aionon (meaning ages), not aionios as you typed.

Here again the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT

1 Tim 1:17 Now, to the eternal King,” immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of age s.c Amen. ​

Note this vs. translated by native Greek speaking scholars. "aionon" is the genitive plural of "aion."

Have you ever had even one lesson in Koine Greek?

Have you?

 

[ClementofA]

You are criticizing as discombobulated etc, the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible which I quoted.

No, your post in general.

In Rom 1:20 God is referred to as aidios, by Paul. In Tim 1;17 God is referred to as aionios, by the same writer. Paul has used aionios as a synonym for aidios. Period end of discussion. Ask your guy who knows Greek.

Again 1 Tim.1:17 does not use the word aionios.

Furthermore, it does not follow logically that if Greek words X & Y are both applied to God, that X = Y. So your argument is logically unsound. Therefore it fails as the proof you claim it does. Your argument is unsound & wrong.

Also you could use a course in post secondary school logic, as is evident from - many - remarks you make in your posts. Instead of your own "amateur hour" opinions, you'ld be better off posting what some so-called "authorities" have to say.

By all means try to find & post some authority that agrees with your statement above, but you may be looking a very long time (decades) & never find even one. If in all your decades of study you have never found one yet, what are the odds you will later.

So here we have a person who probably could not parse a Greek verb if his life depended on it and probably doesn't know an aorist from an apple, criticizing Greek grammar.

Greek is irrelevant to my comment which was addressing the illogic of your assuming something is a proof text without providing any sound reasoning that that is the case. You
evaded addressing my comment properly with a remark that was irrelevant to the issue.

Here again the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT

1 Tim 1:17 Now, to the eternal King,” immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of age s.c Amen. ​

Note this vs. translated by native Greek speaking scholars. "aionon" is the genitive plural of "aion."

What makes you think native Greek speaking scholars know any more than any other Greek scholars? Are they your Pope of scholars? ECF universalists were also native Greek speaking scholars & not 2000 years removed from Christ.

1 Timothy 1:17 Greek Text Analysis

And if (big if) "the ages" there should be - interpreted -as unending in duration, so what? That doesn't make aion or aionion or aionios unending in any other context.

"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”

¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).

¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).

¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)

¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
(1Co. 10:11)

¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).

¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).

¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).

¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).

¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).

¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?

¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).

¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).

¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).

How can we say…

¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).

¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).

¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).

¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

 

[Der Alte]

No, your post in general.
Again 1 Tim.1:17 does not use the word aionios.
Furthermore, it does not follow logically that if Greek words X & Y are both applied to God, that X = Y. So your argument is logically unsound. Therefore it fails as the proof you claim it does. Your argument is unsound & wrong.
Also you could use a course in post secondary school logic, as is evident from - many - remarks you make in your posts. Instead of your own "amateur hour" opinions, you'ld be better off posting what some so-called "authorities" have to say.
By all means try to find & post some authority that agrees with your statement above, but you may be looking a very long time (decades) & never find even one. If in all your decades of study you have never found one yet, what are the odds you will later.
Greek is irrelevant to my comment which was addressing the illogic of your assuming something is a proof text without providing any sound reasoning that that is the case. You
evaded addressing my comment properly with a remark that was irrelevant to the issue.
What makes you think native Greek speaking scholars know any more than any other Greek scholars? Are they your Pope of scholars? ECF universalists were also native Greek speaking scholars & not 2000 years removed from Christ.
1 Timothy 1:17 Greek Text Analysis
And if (big if) "the ages" there should be - interpreted -as unending in duration, so what? That doesn't make aion or aionion or aionios unending in any other context.
"Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”
¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?
¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).
¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).
¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).
¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).
¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).
¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).
¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).
¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?
¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)
¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).
¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
(1Co. 10:11)
¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).
¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).
¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).
¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).
¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).
¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).
¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).
¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).
¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?
¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).
¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).
¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).
How can we say…
¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).
¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).
¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).
¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."
Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell

I was going give a reasoned response to this until I got to the bottom and I see the entire post is a copy/paste from a biased UR site.
If I want to have a discussion with them I will go to that website.
The quick answer to all your examples is Hyperbole, hyperbole, hyperbole, hyperbole etc. etc. etc.
There are many examples of hyperbole in the Bible. For example, the word "kosmos"

[1]Matthew 16:26
(26) What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? [Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]​

Can a person literally inherit the "whole world?"

[2]1 John 5:19
(19) We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.​

Was "the whole world" literally under the control of the evil one?

[3]Revelation 12:9
(9) The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.​

Did Satan literally lead "the whole world" astray?

[4]Revelation 13:3
(3) One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.​

Did "the whole world" literally follow the beast?

[5]Genesis 41:57 And all the world came to Egypt to buy grain from Joseph, because the famine was severe everywhere.​

Did "all the world" literally buy grain from Egypt?

[6]Acts 17:6 But when they did not find them, they dragged Jason and some other believers before the city officials, shouting: "These men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here,​

Did the disciples literally cause trouble "all over the world?"

[7]Acts 19:35 The city clerk quieted the crowd and said: "Fellow Ephesians, doesn't all the world know that the city of Ephesus is the guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven?​

Did "all the world" literally know that Ephesus was the guardian of the pagan deity Artemis?

[8]Acts 24:5 "We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.​

Was Paul literally stirring up riots "all over the world?"

[9]Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.​

Did Caesar literally tax "all the world?"

[10]Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth​

Did "all the world" literally worship the goddess Diana?

[11]Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.​

Was the faith of the Romans literally spoken of throughout "the whole world?"

[12]John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.​

Did the whole world literally go after Jesus?

[13]Acts of the apostles 17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;​

Did the Paul’s companions literally turn “the world upside down?”

[14]1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.​

Did the “ends of the world” literally come upon the Israelite who disobeyed God at Sinai?

[15]James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.​

Is the tongue literally a world?
Let us use the fallacious aion/aionios argument on these verses. The word "world" cannot literally mean the entire planet earth because it refers to/describe things that are not literally "the whole world" and "all the world."

 

[ClementofA]

I was going give a reasoned response to this until I got to the bottom and I see the entire post is a copy/paste from a biased UR site.

In truth, roughly half of it. Actually.

If I want to have a discussion with them I will go to that website.

Yet that is the only portion of my post you address.

 

[ClementofA]

If I want to have a discussion with them I will go to that website.
The quick answer to all your examples is Hyperbole, hyperbole, hyperbole, hyperbole etc. etc. etc.

I'm still waiting for you to provide a single scholar in all history who says aion/ios is ever hyperbole, let alone so often as you allege. That is your own private amateur opinion without the support of any credible source.

Mt.24:3 & other similar examples put your hyperbole theory out of business.

Mt.24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

 

[Jipsah]

Bible tells that eternal life is for righteous. So, it is unrighteous who go to hell.

Who live there eternally, right?

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:23

Wait, that contradicts what you just said. If eternal life is a gift of God, does that mean that eternal life in hell is a gift of God as well? But St.Paul says that the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in hell. Hmmmmm,......

 

[Jipsah]

What did Christ die to save us from then? Why did He speak on it so many times?

You mean like warning people that God could destroy both body and soul in hell? But "that doesn't really mean "destroy", does it? Handiest phrase of all in the realm of Scriptural interpretation.

 

[Jipsah]

Feel free to try to prove me wrong, with evidence at least equivalent to the evidence I presented..

I would first require you to prove that I am not Czar of All th Russias. Sorry mate, but "prove it ain't" is codswallop

 

[agapelove]

I think we should move on to spiritual maturity and realize that death means more than annihilation and eternal life means more than immortality.

 

[Der Alte]

Who live there eternally, right?
Wait, that contradicts what you just said. If eternal life is a gift of God, does that mean that eternal life in hell is a gift of God as well? But St.Paul says that the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in hell. Hmmmmm,......

"Eternal life" is one thing, conscious awareness after death is another.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself, is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The Jews considered this passage to be factual.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

 

[Jipsah]

When the disciples wrote to churches in Italy, Greece. Turkey etc. would they have understood Jewish symbols? Is there anything in any of the epistles which would have explained all the "symbols" to them? Recognizing that unlike us they did not have an electronic device with numerous versions of the Bible, with which they could do an instantaneous cross reference of verses. And it is highly unlikely that anyone except the wealthy even had their own copy of the some epistles. Even churches would not have a complete NT. The average person would know only what they heard in church on Sunday.

So those benighted pagans may have thought that "dead" meant "dead" and "destroy" meant "destroy", and been deluded into thinking that the result of sin was actually death, and that eternal life was an explcitly given gift of God and not something that was standard issue for everyone. including the damned.

 

[Der Alte]

I would first require you to prove that I am not Czar of All th Russias. Sorry mate, but "prove it ain't" is codswallop

This was not addressed to you but if you want a piece of it I'll provide it. The other poster implied I was wrong by responding "LOL." I said if I was wrong prove it. He could perhaps show that I misinterpreted scripture, misquoted a source or perhaps said something that contradicts scripture.

 

[Jipsah]

I think we should move on to spiritual maturity and realize that death means more than annihilation and eternal life means more than immortality.

Yeah, it requires Spiritual Maturity to figure out that the Bible doesn't really mean what it says, but in fact means what our doctrines have decided that it means, which may be something altogether different. Otherwise way too many of our doctrines wouldn't be able to survive contact with Scripture.

 

[Der Alte]

So those benighted pagans may have thought that "dead" meant "dead" and "destroy" meant "destroy", and been deluded into thinking that the result of sin was actually death, and that eternal life was an explcitly given gift of God and not something that was standard issue for everyone. including the damned.

Doesn't really address my post does it? Another poster said something about symbolism in the NT. I asked him if formerly pagan Christians in other countries would understand Jewish symbolism?

 

[Jipsah]

This was not addressed to you but if you want a piece of it I'll provide it. The other poster said that I was wrong I asked him to prove it. He could perhaps show that I misinterpreted scripture, misquoted a source or perhaps said something that contradicts scripture.

Just pointing out that "prove it ain't" is just as valid for someone claiming Jesus was a man from Mars as for someone claiming that Jesus is the Risen Lord. It's intrinsically ridiculous, and you don't do yourself or your arguments any service by resorting to it.

 

[ClementofA]

"Eternal life" is one thing, conscious awareness after death is another.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.​

In this passage God, himself, is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The Jews considered this passage to be factual.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com​

…..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.​

Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:

"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)

The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :

Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things

"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.

When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?

The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.

" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "

" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"

The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.

In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.

Tom Talbott said:

"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."

How to Read the Bible from a Universalist Perspective

We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

 

[Jipsah]

Doesn't really address my post does it? Another poster said something about symbolism in the NT. I asked him if formerly pagan Christians in other countries would understand Jewish symbolism?

Point taken, but I took the liberty of extending it to expecting people to understand Christian symbolism, or what some Christians claim is symbolism. I'm only a couple of generations past my pagan ancestors and that's close enough to be very literal minded.