Are You of Israel?

[BobRyan]

Those without Christ Jesus are doomed to burn in the future "lake of fire"...

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV

John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV

John 8:21-24
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, "I go My way, and ye shall seek Me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come."
22 Then said the Jews, "Will he kill Himself? because He saith, 'Whither I go, ye cannot come.'"
23 And He said unto them, "Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins.
KJV

Acts 13:46
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."
KJV

2 Thess 1:7-9
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
KJV

Rev 20:15
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

Rev 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV

ok but that was true from Genesis 3 onward.

 

[HARK!]

Those without Christ Jesus are doomed to burn in the future "lake of fire"...

(CLV) 1Jn 2:4
He who is saying that I know him, and is not keeping his precepts, is a liar; and the truth of The God, is not in this one.

 

[Davy]

(CLV) Ex 12:49
One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

(CLV) Num 15:15
As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the sojourner sojourning with you. It shall be an eonian (FOREVER) statute throughout your generations. Like you so shall the sojourner be before Yahweh.

You're being silly, you cannot compare the old covenant with Faith on Jesus Christ per The New Covenant. The old covenant is DEAD!

 

[Davy]

Pure rubbish! But don't just take my word for it.

(CLV) Hb 11:28
By faith he has the passover made and the pouring of blood against the door jambs, lest the |exterminator of the first-born may come into |contact with them.

The theme of faith is sewn throughout the whole story of Moses.

What you're sewing is the actual rubbish, because you cannot apply the old covenant given through Moses to Christ's Salvation per The New Covenant. The old covenant is DEAD! And there is a difference between the old covenant and God's laws. The Promise by Faith was NEVER a part of the old covenant! If you say it was then you lie against God's Word, and especially against Apostle Paul...

Rom 4:13-14
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
KJV

 

[Davy]

It is all about the old covenant vs new covenant ... that has always been the case.

The old covenant is "obey and live" it is the first covenant made with Adam before the fall and he could easily comply -- he was sinless. But he chose not to comply.

Boy have you got your Bible history timeline way off.

The old covenant was NOT made with Adam. It was first offered to the children of Israel through Moses, long after even Abraham had been dead. If it's too much of a bother to actually read The Scripture about that as written (Exodus 19:3-6), then you can always watch the movie The Ten Commandments with Charlton Heston playing Moses.

 

[Davy]

ok but that was true from Genesis 3 onward.

It's STILL true today too, for those who still reject Christ Jesus, which was my point.

 

[Minister Monardo]

There is no partiality with YHWH.

Not an answer to the question.
Here is your reference given.
Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear The Law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey The Law who will be declared righteous.
I asked:To whom did he address this comment?
Your answer, which is not an answer:There is no partiality with YHWH.
So I will answer my own question, since you are diverting.
He is addressing Jewish people who thought they were right with God because of the Law of Moses.
The context of the statement, the very center of Paul's argument, is that Gentiles who keep the Law by the leading of their conscience are the true righteous ones. They knew the teachings of Torah, but were not Jews, without hope, separated from Israel. Therefore, being a Jew, being Circumcised, observing Laws is not the Gospel, but the bringing in of a better hope based on better promises. Nothing to support the idea that Paul or any apostle expected the non Jews to become Torah observant to continue to be grafted into Israel. You misunderstand the very scripture that you quote:
Acts 15:21. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Greeks throughout that world, Paul's city of Tarsus, lived side by side with Jews. They studied their religion. Why do you think Satan wants you to think there was no BC Septuagint? Were the Greeks listening to Torah being read in synagogues of their cities in Hebrew? They heard the Law and kept it by conscience toward God. Therefore, Paul says, their uncircumcision is become circumcision by the obedience of faith. He doesn't say they are Israel, he says they are Jews, not of the flesh, or the letter, but of the spirit, of a circumcised heart. The flesh profits nothing-would you deny Yeshua made that statement. To teach that Greek converts eventually were circumcised and became Torah observant has no legs. Paul says that many were already fulfilling the Law, without being "under the Law", an expression you claim to understand more fully than most. This is your OP. Circumcision, Fulfilling the Law, etc...the same arguments every day. Always the "featured" OP. I have read through all the threads, most of the time you refuse to address others comments directly, but you use the same deflecting tactics repeatedly. It seems that you are playing for "ratings". So confident, until you got hit by a thunderbolt today in regards to the expectations of Grace. So you can receive on occasion. I would continue our discussions, but not on such a vain forum as your OP's, which are just spinning wheels, over and over. Same arguments every day. I have come to pity you. You must feel like the Preacher of Ecclesiastes. All is vanity. You know where to find me, I post everyday, but you are too swamped with responding to comments on your endless foray of unedifying, scripture twisting, agony. I am sorry to say that I have spent hours reading your messages, and have received nothing but a blur. "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." Please refrain from being this person...chaneph la'eg. Psalm 35:16.

 

[Minister Monardo]

once you say admit that it is the "believers" in OT and NT that are the "Israel" God mentioned in Jer 31:31-34, and in Heb 8:6-12 -- on whose heart God writes His Law -- OT and NT, then the typology found in the OT pointing to Christ - including Isaac at Moriah (replaced by the Ram caught in the thicket) is more clearly seen "as a type" of Christ.

Excellent that you say that Moriah points to Christ, but not the ram caught in the thicket. Abraham tells Isaac:
Genesis 22:8. And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
instead, they find a ram to sacrifice. His words are clearly prophetic to this:
John 1:36. And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God!
Revelation 13:8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
This is the meaning of the name Abraham gives to the place:YHWH Nissi, The Lord will provide. Hallelujah!

 

[HARK!]

You're being silly, you cannot compare the old covenant with Faith on Jesus Christ per The New Covenant. The old covenant is DEAD!

The covenant is renewed. The law is not the old covenant. Maybe that is where you are confused.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Yahshua said that the law stands as long as earth does. He followed the law perfectly. He calls us to follow his example. his disciples called us to follow his example long after Yahshua has ascended.

The renewed covenant is built on YHWH's perfect law.

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'
(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'

 

[HARK!]

And there is a difference between the old covenant and God's laws.

Yes there is! The law doesn't pass away before heaven and earth.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

 

[HARK!]

Not an answer to the question.
Here is your reference given.
Romans 2:13
For it is not those who hear The Law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey The Law

(CLV) Ro 2:11
For there is not partiality with God,

(CLV) Ro 2:12
for whoever sinned without law, without law also shall perish, and whoever sinned in law, through law will be judged.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.

 

[Davy]

The covenant is renewed. The law is not the old covenant. Maybe that is where you are confused.

I'm definitely NOT... the one who is confused.

Heb 8:8-13
8 For finding fault with them, He saith, 'Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put My laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord': for all shall know Me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.'

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, He hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
KJV

Heb 9:11-15
11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by His own blood He entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, Who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause He is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
KJV

 

[HARK!]

Nothing to support the idea that Paul or any apostle expected the non Jews to become Torah observant to continue to be grafted into Israel. You misunderstand the very scripture that you quote:
Acts 15:21. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Did you proof read what you wrote before you posted it? Why would James qualify his order at the Council of Jerusalem with that statement? Was he just trying to find ways to kill time for the Pagans, to distract them from their blood cocktails?

Do you believe that YHWH divorced a harlot; so that he could marry her up with his son?

I don't.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Do you believe that YHWH divorced a harlot; so that he could marry her up with his son?

This is the exact type of question that makes you appear totally deranged. You are dismissed.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Did you proof read what you wrote before you posted it? Why would James qualify his order at the Council of Jerusalem with that statement. Was he just trying to find ways to kill time for the Pagans, to distract them from their blood cocktails?

Do you believe that YHWH divorced a harlot; so that he could marry her up with his son?

I don't.

Please refrain from being this person...chaneph la'eg. Psalm 35:16.

 

[HARK!]

This is the exact type of question that makes you appear totally deranged. You are dismissed.

So you don't believe that he would allow a lawless gentile to marry his son after he divorced her for ignoring his law?

 

[HARK!]

Please refrain from being this person

I would ask the same of you. It grieves my heart when people say that they can be a lawless bride of Yahshua.

It doesn't sound so romantic when you work out that philosophy to its' logical conclusion; does it?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But that thinking is still... a slow creeping back to believing that God chose the seed of Israel involving a Salvation by flesh when that wasn't the case at all, as Paul shows in Romans 9. We cannot scrap one Scripture witness in favor of another, both have to agree with each other.

And they do; the idea that Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel applies in the sense that The Gospel had to be preached first starting at Jerusalem, and then once the Jews rejected it, it would then go to the Gentiles, which just so happened to be where the majority of the ten lost tribes were scattered. The fact that The Gospel went to Gentiles to fulfill what our Lord Jesus said doesn't detract at all from what Paul taught about the Promise in Romans 9.

My point all along of just who is God's Israel has been how the name 'Israel' which is the NEW name God gave to Jacob, it was about the Promise by Faith first given to Abraham all along!

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
KJV

What can be seen with this is that God had a BIGGER PLAN all along, even starting with Abraham, as He used the rebellion of the tribes of Israel as a way to include the believing Gentiles in His Salvation. The majority of Jews haven't understood this because what it actually was about is that the Promise God first gave Abraham by Faith was The Gospel of Jesus Christ all along. Because the false Jew crept in unawares in their leadership has basically hidden that from them by defaulting to their Talmudic traditions instead. That is still the origins of their wrong thinking of Salvation by the flesh.

But that thinking is still... a slow creeping back to believing that God chose the seed of Israel involving a Salvation by flesh when that wasn't the case at all, as Paul shows in Romans 9. We cannot scrap one Scripture witness in favor of another, both have to agree with each other.

And they do; the idea that Jesus said He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel applies in the sense that The Gospel had to be preached first starting at Jerusalem, and then once the Jews rejected it, it would then go to the Gentiles, which just so happened to be where the majority of the ten lost tribes were scattered. The fact that The Gospel went to Gentiles to fulfill what our Lord Jesus said doesn't detract at all from what Paul taught about the Promise in Romans 9.

My point all along of just who is God's Israel has been how the name 'Israel' which is the NEW name God gave to Jacob, it was about the Promise by Faith first given to Abraham all along!

Gal 3:6-9
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

Gal 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
KJV

Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As He saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
KJV

What can be seen with this is that God had a BIGGER PLAN all along, even starting with Abraham, as He used the rebellion of the tribes of Israel as a way to include the believing Gentiles in His Salvation. The majority of Jews haven't understood this because what it actually was about is that the Promise God first gave Abraham by Faith was The Gospel of Jesus Christ all along. Because the false Jew crept in unawares in their leadership has basically hidden that from them by defaulting to their Talmudic traditions instead. That is still the origins of their wrong thinking of Salvation by the flesh.

How is it possible to read Hosea and conclude that God is talking about any but Israel, most notably the northern kingdom? The Gentile nations are only mentioned as "lovers" that Israel sought after?

 

[visionary]

Those without Christ Jesus are doomed to burn in the future "lake of fire"...

Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
KJV

John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
KJV

John 3:36
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
KJV

John 8:21-24
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, "I go My way, and ye shall seek Me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come."
22 Then said the Jews, "Will he kill Himself? because He saith, 'Whither I go, ye cannot come.'"
23 And He said unto them, "Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am He, ye shall die in your sins.
KJV

Acts 13:46
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."
KJV

2 Thess 1:7-9
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
KJV

Rev 20:15
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

Rev 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
KJV

You mention these verses like we don't believe knowing Yeshua is a great part of our Salvation story. We do and we believe also in His Kingdom which He announced on Mount Sinai. He will come to rule by those rules too. Those that were on parchment will have modifications like some mentioned in Hebrews. But those on stone are eternal, unmoveable, and in the hearts of His believers forever.

 

[ChetSinger]

Some are ceremonial, some are moral, some are for females, some are for males, some are for farmers, some are for priests, some are for the military,...etc etc etc.... No one can follow them all because they do not apply to everyone. Some are ordiances, some are statutes, and some are the moral laws that all must follow. Some are seasonal, some are for certain age groups, some are for strangers, some are for the leaders, ... When it come to understanding them in the Light of Yeshua, then you see some are symbolic of His Work and are what He does, will do, and we can look forward to Him making them come to be the "shadow' is Christ. You asked if Christians should follow them. You do realize that 50 years ago when I was a child, it was talk in all sunday school to follow the moral laws. Today it is not taught. Sadly, Christianity has drifted off its moral course.

This tells me that you're not actually following the Mosaic law at all; you're picking and choosing. Am I right? There are ultra-orthodox Jews today who don't pick and choose, but labor to follow the entire thing. I think they're misguided but I do acknowledge their zeal.

So if you're picking and choosing which of Moses' laws you're going to follow, why not make it easy on yourself by focusing on the laws set down by Jesus and the apostles in the new covenant, called the "law of Christ"? That's what my church teaches. What does yours teach?