Are You of Israel?

[HARK!]

It was taken from Judah and given to the other descendants of Israel, whom God still considered to be a "nation", in spite of their rather poor state. The new testament church grew among the descendants of the house of Israel, not in a (non-Israelite) Gentile nation.

We see it in Jeremiah; and it's repeated in Hebrews. YHWH will renew his covenant with both houses; but then from both authors, it's repeated that he will renew his covenant with Israel. In the end we are all one in YHWH; that he may be all in all. We cannot be one in a divided house.

That said, YHWH's renewed covenant is not with those of Judah who reject Yahshua; anymore than it is with Pagans who reject his word.

 

[Zao is life]

If you are not of Israel; you are not in covenant with YHWH.
(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

If you are not of Israel Yahshua wasn't commissioned for you.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, [Yahshua] answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

OH! OH! But WE'RE grafted IN! Grafted into what?

(CLV) Ro 11:17
Now if some of the boughs are broken out, yet you, being a wild olive, are grafted among them, and became joint participant of the root and fatness of the olive,

What is this olive tree?

(CLV) Jer 11:16
A flourishing olive tree, lovely with shapely fruit, Yahweh had called your name; But with the sound of a great din, He will ravage its leaves with fire, And its branches will be smashed.

(CLV) Jer 11:17
Yahweh of hosts Who planted you has decreed evil against you owing to the evil of the house of Israel and the house of Judah, which they have done for themselves to provoke Me to vexation by fuming incense to Baal.

It is not individual humans who decide who God's elect are, it is God. God's elect are those who believe in Christ. That's all. The Jews who knew Christ and who believed in Christ in the first century remained citizens of Israel, which has never been rejected by God as His elect people - but the Jews who did not believe in Christ, were broken off, and ever since then, any Jew who does not believe in Christ is not considered by God to be part of Israel.

Ever since the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ, Gentiles who believed in Jesus were grafted into Israel, and Jews who repent of their unbelief are grafted back into Israel again. Therefore as long as you have people believing in Christ, there is an elect nation called "Israel".

Jesus and His apostles did not teach that Jews and Gentiles have to obey the Mosaic Law to be part of Israel - they taught that they are to believe in Christ and become His disciples, and it is GOD who decides who His elect are - NOT Judas-icers.

 

[visionary]

It is not individual humans who decide who God's elect are, it is God. God's elect are those who believe in Christ. That's all. The Jews who knew Christ and who believed in Christ in the first century remained citizens of Israel, which has never been rejected by God as His elect people - but the Jews who did not believe in Christ, were broken off, and ever since then, any Jew who does not believe in Christ is not considered by God to be part of Israel.

Ever since the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ, Gentiles who believed in Jesus were grafted into Israel, and Jews who repent of their unbelief are grafted back into Israel again. Therefore as long as you have people believing in Christ, there is an elect nation called "Israel".

Jesus and His apostles did not teach that Jews and Gentiles have to obey the Mosaic Law to be part of Israel - they taught that they are to believe in Christ and become His disciples, and it is GOD who decides who His elect are - NOT Judas-icers.

Whose faith is Judaism, does it belong to God? Is that which came from Mount Sinai from God? Is Yeshua's faith a form of Judaism? Is Yeshua's teachings clarification of what Mount Sinai instructions from God are all about? Did Yeshua ever indicate that He is starting something new in faith?

 

[Zao is life]

Whose faith is Judaism, does it belong to God? Is that which came from Mount Sinai from God? Is Yeshua's faith a form of Judaism? Is Yeshua's teachings clarification of what Mount Sinai instructions from God are all about? Did Yeshua ever indicate that He is starting something new in faith?

Jesus and His apostles have already answered you, and I've repeated their teaching in in post #1 and #149 in this thread:

The Law of Moses and its commandments : Forever unfit for purpose

 

[ChetSinger]

...Did Yeshua ever indicate that He is starting something new in faith?

Not a new faith, but new rules. A new covenant.

From the start of his ministry, immediately after the beatitudes in Matthew 5, I see Jesus modifying God's rules. Some he made tougher, such as saying physical faithfulness to a spouse isn't enough; even our thoughts must remain faithful. Others he loosened, such as the dietary ones.

For the past 2,000 years all of the nations of the world have been offered a new covenant. God hasn't changed, but his covenant and his rules have. Would you agree with that?

 

[GospelS]

Ah! the sons of Jacob, of Leah and of Rachael. The great and big brothers of little Joseph. Aren't your controversies extending across history?

Anyway, how did Jacob become Israel. Was he born an Israelite? Now that I have Christ, I think I'm much more of Israel than Jacob himself was. They were only shadows. Just saying. Keep going.

 

[Zao is life]

I shall dare not answer God that I'm a gentile when He calls to me to do something that He already told Israel to do.

God renamed Jacob and called His people Israel. All the other people He called foreigners, synonym for gentiles.

> I see there can only be two people- Israel and foreigners (gentiles). One is either a foreigner (gentile) OR Israel; can't be both at the same time.

> I think God considers Israel as 'clean' and foreigners (gentiles) as ‘unclean’. Born-again are Israel and 'clean' while NOT born-again are foreigners (gentiles) and 'unclean'.

> God asked Israel not to intermarry with foreigners (gentiles). God asked us not to unequally yoke with unbelievers (foreigners/gentiles).

> Wild olive shoots are called as foreigners (gentiles), not anymore those who are grafted-in.

> I don't think there can be both foreign (gentile) believers and foreign (gentile) unbelievers. All unbelievers are foreigners (gentiles) and all foreigners (gentiles) are unbelievers.

> I don't think Paul considered anyone a foreigner (gentile) after they became born-again. (I think this is not completely understood as he meant it to be).

I agree. But there's more to it though. There is male and there is female, but they are one in Christ.

There is the house of Israel and the house of Judah. In Christ the two are one:

Gal 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The promise of the New Covenant is made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31).

The house of Israel are collectively called "Ephraim" in prophetic scripture, and on his deathbed Jacob (Israel) told Joseph that his seed would become the fullness of the Gentiles (melo goyim in the Hebrew, which is translated as "a multitude of nations" in the English Bibles):

Gen 48:19 "And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations."

Over 1,000 years later, and after the Israelites had taken possession of at least part of the promised land, and after Israel and Judah had split into two kingdoms called "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" , God said the following regarding the house of Israel/Ephraim:

Hos 1:5-9 "And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter.

And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for all of you are not my people, and I will not be your God."

So God had mercy on the house of Judah at that time, but not on the house of Israel.

Yet immediately afterwards, the same prophecy says,

Hos 1:10-11 "Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God. Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel."

In its Biblical context, the above prophecy refers to "Ephraim"/the house of Israel - yet hundreds of years later, Paul applies it to those who believe in Christ:

Rom 9:22-26 "What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory; whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations? As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

So there God had mercy again on the house of Israel, but this time, the vast majority of the house of Judah are broken off through unbelief - but in Christ, there is only one house, one Israel, comprised of all who believe in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.

Then we get Paul's statement in Rom 11:25-33, which is a can of worms because either it means that the entire house of Judah will one day repent of their unbelief, and all the Jews of that generation will be grafted back into the Olive tree again (and that the rest have been spiritually wandering in the wilderness in unbelief and perishing in that wilderness), or it means only that God had mercy on the Gentiles who believe in Christ through the genetic seed's unbelief (the Jews who happen to be called "the house of Judah"), and nothing more.

 

[Davy]

If you are not of Israel; you are not in covenant with YHWH.
....

Of course that idea is pure baloney.

In Romans 9 Apostle Paul showed that it's not of the flesh that is counted for the seed, but the children of the Promise are 'counted' for the seed. That means ALL believers on Jesus Christ The NEW Covenant, whether Israelite or Gentile.

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

This gets back to what Apostle Paul also taught in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 that those of Faith have become the children of Abraham. It's because the Promise by Faith is what YHVH gave to Abraham first, which was before the giving of the law or a covenant.

 

[Davy]

I shall dare not answer God that I'm a gentile when He calls to me to do something that He already told Israel to do.

God renamed Jacob and called His people Israel. All the other people He called foreigners, synonym for gentiles.

Well, if you believe the name Israel only applies to flesh born Israelites, then you have not read what Apostle Paul said in Romans 9:

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV


The promise Paul is speaking of is about The Gospel Promise first given through Abraham by Faith.

Paul said The Gospel was preached to Abraham when God showed that the Gentiles would be justified through Abraham's faith, and thus all those of Faith have become the children of Abraham.

Gal 3:5-9
5 He therefore That ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth He it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
KJV

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I agree. But there's more to it though. There is male and there is female, but they are one in Christ.

There is the house of Israel and the house of Judah. In Christ the two are one:

Gal 3:28-29 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

The promise of the New Covenant is made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31).

The house of Israel are collectively called "Ephraim" in prophetic scripture, and on his deathbed Jacob (Israel) told Joseph that his seed would become the fullness of the Gentiles (melo goyim in the Hebrew, which is translated as "a multitude of nations" in the English Bibles):

Gen 48:19 "And his father refused and said, I know, my son, I know. He also shall become a people, and he also shall be great, but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he is, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations."

Over 1,000 years later, and after the Israelites had taken possession of at least part of the promised land, and after Israel and Judah had split into two kingdoms called "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" , God said the following regarding the house of Israel/Ephraim:

Hos 1:5-9 "And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter.

And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for all of you are not my people, and I will not be your God."

So God had mercy on the house of Judah at that time, but not on the house of Israel.

Yet immediately afterwards, the same prophecy says,

Hos 1:10-11 "Yet the number of the sons of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them, You are not My people, there it shall be said to them, You are the sons of the living God. Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel."

In its Biblical context, the above prophecy refers to "Ephraim"/the house of Israel - yet hundreds of years later, Paul applies it to those who believe in Christ:

Rom 9:22-26 "What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy which He had before prepared to glory; whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations? As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved. And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."

So there God had mercy again on the house of Israel, but this time, the vast majority of the house of Judah are broken off through unbelief - but in Christ, there is only one house, one Israel, comprised of all who believe in Christ, whether Jew or Gentile.

Then we get Paul's statement in Rom 11:25-33, which is a can of worms because either it means that the entire house of Judah will one day repent of their unbelief, and all the Jews of that generation will be grafted back into the Olive tree again (and that the rest have been spiritually wandering in the wilderness in unbelief and perishing in that wilderness), or it means only that God had mercy on the Gentiles who believe in Christ through the genetic seed's unbelief (the Jews who happen to be called "the house of Judah"), and nothing more.

I agree. I believe the "fullness of the Gentiles" (nations,tribes) refers to the descendants of the house of Israel.

 

[HARK!]

It is not individual humans who decide who God's elect are, it is God.

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers~ of LAWLESSNESS!'

God's elect are those who believe in Christ.

(CLV) Jn 5:45
"Be not supposing that I shall be accusing you to the Father. He who is accusing you to the Father is Moses, on whom you rely.

(CLV) Jn 5:46
For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for the writes concerning Me.

(CLV) Jn 5:47
Now if you are not believing this writings, how shall you be believing My declarations?"

Jesus and His apostles did not teach that Jews and Gentiles have to obey the Mosaic Law to be part of Israel

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This has to do with physical Israel. The legitimate seed of Abraham would arise through Isaac, the son of promise, not Ishmael, the son of the flesh.

That the heathen (all nations) would be blessed is a separate promise.

 

[HARK!]

Jesus and His apostles have already answered you

I didn't see your answer in that wall of text. can I have the short answer?

 

[HARK!]

Not a new faith, but new rules.

What new rules?

I see Jesus modifying God's rules. Some he made tougher, such as saying physical faithfulness to a spouse isn't enough; even our thoughts must remain faithful.

It's called magnifying. YHWH told us he would magnify his law. You just confirmed that his law still stands; but let's not just take your word for it.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Others he loosened, such as the dietary ones.

For example? I see no evidence of this.

God hasn't changed

YHWH doesn't change. So it is written. YHWH's perfect law is his nature. It is as unchanging as it is perfect.

but his covenant and his rules have.

The rules haven't changed. They've been magnified.

 

[HARK!]

Of course that idea is pure baloney.

In Romans 9 Apostle Paul showed that it's not of the flesh that is counted for the seed, but the children of the Promise are 'counted' for the seed. That means ALL believers on Jesus Christ The NEW Covenant, whether Israelite or Gentile.

YHWH clearly says that his covenant is with Israel. If Paul seems to disagree with YHWH; then I would posit that your understanding of Paul is in error.

There is no mention of YHWH making his covenant with Pagans. Pagans must repent in order to become Israel.

(CLV) Jn 8:39
They answered and say to Him, "Our father is Abraham." Jesus answered them, "If you are children of Abraham, did you ever do the works of Abraham?

(CLV) Jn 8:42
Jesus, then, said to them, "If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For out of God I came forth and am arriving. For neither have I come of Myself, but He commissions Me.

(CLV) Jn 8:44
You/ are of your father, the Adversary, and the desires of your father you are wanting to do. He was a man-killer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not in him. Whenever he may be speaking a lie, he is speaking of his own, for he is a liar, and the father of it.


(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.

What is sin? Sin is transgression of the law.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

 

[HARK!]

Paul said The Gospel was preached to Abraham when God showed that the Gentiles would be justified through Abraham's faith, and thus all those of Faith have become the children of Abraham.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Davy]

This has to do with physical Israel. The legitimate seed of Abraham would arise through Isaac, the son of promise, not Ishmael, the son of the flesh.

That the heathen (all nations) would be blessed is a separate promise.

The Romans 9:6-8 Scripture is about The Gospel Promise which God originally gave Abraham concerning all the nations of the earth being blessed. It continued to his son Isaac also...

Gen 26:4
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
KJV

It is not just about flesh born Israelites, although those of the seed who 'believe' are included in The Promise, since it was first given through them, which is Paul's meaning in Romans 9:2-5.

This is shown by Paul even more later in Romans 9 when he quotes from the prophet Hosea to those Roman Gentile believers.

Rom 9:23-26
23 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As He saith also in Osee, 'I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
KJV

That Hosea Scripture was originally written 'only'... about the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of Israel that was first to fall away into idol rebellion. But Paul includes the believing Gentiles in that final status God gave about the house of Israel in the Book of Hosea. Once one understands that The Gospel would go to the Gentiles, and they would believe, and then begin to realize that the ten tribes were scattered among the Gentiles, what Paul said there starts to make sense. Thus Christ's Church is made up of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile. There is no separation like the false Jews keep wrongly teaching.

 

[Davy]

YHWH clearly says that his covenant is with Israel. If Paul seems to disagree with YHWH; then I would posit that your understanding of Paul is in error.

It's the other way. It's you... that does not understand Paul, nor the Promise of The Gospel which YHVH first gave to Abraham by Faith. And the old covenant is dead. The New Covenant Jesus offered is about that Promise by Faith. And the believing Gentiles are in... that New Covenant with YHVH through the Blood of Jesus Christ!

 

[HARK!]

Not a new faith, but new rules. A new covenant.

A landlord states in his contract, "no pets;" because he doesn't want animals stinking up his building.

The tenant brings in animals and stinks up his building. They broke the contract. They get kicked out; and he let's the building stand vacant for the stench to subside.

The landlord renews the contract with a new tenant.

Do you really believe that the landlord is going to allow the new tenant bring his pets?

 

[HARK!]

It's the other way. It's you... that does not understand Paul, nor the Promise of The Gospel which YHVH first gave to Abraham by Faith. And the old covenant is dead. The New Covenant Jesus offered is about that Promise by Faith. And the believing Gentiles are in... that New Covenant with YHVH through the Blood of Jesus Christ!

Here is what Yahshua said:

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

Here is what YHWH said:


(CLV) Ex 20:6
yet showing benignity to thousands, to those loving Me and observing My instructions.

His son reiterated it:


(CLV) Jn 14:15
If you should be loving Me, you will be keeping My precepts.

His son's disciples reiterated it:

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,


(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'
(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers of lawlessness!'