Circumcision

[Greengardener]

I'm of the wrong gender to have a say in this discussion, since it wouldn't be my foreskin on the line. I would say, pun intended, that this may result in a "sore" discussion and hope nobody uses this thread to "hit below the belt."

I can speak to the health benefits of the process (which might lend credence to believing that God gave circumcision as a good thing) as well as the evidences of pain inflicted on the newborn that I saw for myself, relate accounts men have given of their adult circumcision process, and tell you about males who voiced regret that they were circumcised as children and hated their parents for doing that to them (which might lend credence to a belief that we shouldn't circumcise routinely now in hope that it's barbaric, maybe not needed our "cleaner" environment, or other such discussion that will likely come up).

I'd be interested to hear a fuller discussion on this point. Many have come to the conclusion that there is indeed a difference between the Jew than to the Gentile, some to one extreme and some to the other in the matter of circumcision. I look forward to the replies of others and your further replies too, Hark.

I would wonder if there isn't a fuller meaning about circumcision that concerns our hearts, just as there seems to be in both testaments an encouragement to strip away the veil from our hearts and to desire to see Him as He is and hear Him fully. I look forward to hearing that theme developed here, hopefully, that Paul mentioned in Romans 2.29.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

James settled this at the Council of Jerusalem. Again the debate was about circumcision for salvation, VS, circumcision to keep the law. These were the opposing arguments at the debate. The winner was circumcision to keep the law. Then James handed down a decree of obedience to the Torah in his closing arguments. Shortly thereafter Paul circumcises Timothy.

Well, we can't be saved by being circumcised (Paul clarifies that in Galatians) so the only legitimate reason would be to keep the law.

The poll though said "why Must we" and I think according to what Paul says in Galatians there is no "must"

 

[HARK!]

But, prithee, do not take my word for it - do the research yourselves (it only takes 5 minutes).

New International Version
Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

New Living Translation
All must be circumcised. Your bodies will bear the mark of my everlasting covenant.

English Standard Version
both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Berean Study Bible
Whether they are born in your household or purchased, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh will be an everlasting covenant.

New American Standard Bible
"A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

New King James Version
He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

King James Bible
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Christian Standard Bible
Whether born in your household or purchased, he must be circumcised. My covenant will be marked in your flesh as a permanent covenant.

Good News Translation
Each one must be circumcised, and this will be a physical sign to show that my covenant with you is everlasting.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
a slave born in your house, as well as one purchased with money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be marked in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.

International Standard Version
The servant born in your house or the one purchased with money is to be circumcised. My covenant is to remain in your flesh as an eternal covenant.

NET Bible
They must indeed be circumcised, whether born in your house or bought with money. The sign of my covenant will be visible in your flesh as a permanent reminder.

New Heart English Bible
He who is born in your house, and he who is bought with your money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Every male born in your household or bought with your money is to be circumcised without exception. So my promise will be a sign on your flesh, an everlasting promise.

JPS Tanakh 1917
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

New American Standard 1977
“A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

King James 2000 Bible
He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with your money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

American King James Version
He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with your money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

American Standard Version
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with money shall be surely circumcised, and my covenant shall be on your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And my covenant shall be in your flesh for a perpetual covenant.

Darby Bible Translation
He who is born in thy house, and he who is bought with thy money, must be circumcised; and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

English Revised Version
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Webster's Bible Translation
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

World English Bible
He who is born in your house, and he who is bought with your money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.


Done!

 

[HARK!]

I'm of the wrong gender to have a say in this discussion, since it wouldn't be my foreskin on the line. I would say, pun intended, that this may result in a "sore" discussion and hope nobody uses this thread to "hit below the belt."

LOL!

The law is the law, no matter who is reading it.

 

[Der Alte]

...
This group argues that you must be circumcised to keep the law...

Twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to.
The Pharisees from Judea did not say "be circumcised to keep the law."

Acts of the apostles 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, AND to command them to keep the law of Moses
Acts of the apostles 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, AND keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Acts of the apostles 21:24-25
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save ONLY that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
​

 

[Der Alte]

New International Version
Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

New Living Translation
All must be circumcised. Your bodies will bear the mark of my everlasting covenant.

English Standard Version
both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.

Berean Study Bible
Whether they are born in your household or purchased, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh will be an everlasting covenant.

New American Standard Bible
"A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

New King James Version
He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

King James Bible
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Christian Standard Bible
Whether born in your household or purchased, he must be circumcised. My covenant will be marked in your flesh as a permanent covenant.

Good News Translation
Each one must be circumcised, and this will be a physical sign to show that my covenant with you is everlasting.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
a slave born in your house, as well as one purchased with money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be marked in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.

International Standard Version
The servant born in your house or the one purchased with money is to be circumcised. My covenant is to remain in your flesh as an eternal covenant.

NET Bible
They must indeed be circumcised, whether born in your house or bought with money. The sign of my covenant will be visible in your flesh as a permanent reminder.

New Heart English Bible
He who is born in your house, and he who is bought with your money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Every male born in your household or bought with your money is to be circumcised without exception. So my promise will be a sign on your flesh, an everlasting promise.

JPS Tanakh 1917
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

New American Standard 1977
“A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

King James 2000 Bible
He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with your money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

American King James Version
He that is born in your house, and he that is bought with your money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

American Standard Version
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with money shall be surely circumcised, and my covenant shall be on your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And my covenant shall be in your flesh for a perpetual covenant.

Darby Bible Translation
He who is born in thy house, and he who is bought with thy money, must be circumcised; and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

English Revised Version
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Webster's Bible Translation
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

World English Bible
He who is born in your house, and he who is bought with your money, must be circumcised. My covenant will be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.


Done!

What does "born in your house" mean? Does that mean "gentiles must be circumcised?"

 

[HARK!]

Acts of the apostles 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, AND to command them to keep the law of Moses

TADA!

You did it.

Here's a literal version to back you up:

(CLV) Ac 15:5
Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses.

So again, I'll make it clear, so that you don't get it all twisted up in your mind.

This debate had two sides. One side said circumcise to keep the law. The other side says circumcise for salvation.

Which side do you stand on? You can't add another position to the debate 2000 years ex post facto.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

James explains it succinctly.



(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

I'm not sure that we are disagreeing but it would be beneficial if you would explain your intention of use for just throwing a scripture out there and expecting that everyone else has the same understanding as you...especially when it's only a verse and not a verse in its context. I'm not sure if you're trying to use Paul to argue with himself or not...Paul does not contradict himself, nor does he and James disagree.

 

[Der Alte]

Here's a literal version to back you up:

What makes a version "literal?" Wait don't tell me it is a version which supports your assumptions and presuppositions. You have no way of knowing which, if any, "literal version" is literal.

This debate had two sides. One side said circumcise to keep the law. The other side says circumcise for salvation....

Wrong! Still twisting scripture. It does not say "circumcise to keep the law!" It says "circumcise AND keep the law."
And Paul said twice that they gave no command to "circumcise AND keep the law." I have explained this to you more than once but you insist on misquoting scripture.
The same faction that said "circumcise" is the only faction that said "keep the law."

 

[HARK!]

What makes a version "literal?" Wait don't tell me it is a version which supports your assumptions and presuppositions. You have no way of knowing which, if any, "literal version" is literal.

I really like this version because it comes with a concordance. I can quickly review the Strong number for every word in the text; as I look at the translation side by side against the Greek or the Hebrew.

So once again your bias assumptions have steered you wrong.

You can get your free copy a scripture4all.

 

[Der Alte]

I real like theis version because it comes with a concordance. I can quickly review the Strong number for every word in the text; as I look at the translation side by side against the Greek or the Hebrew.
So once again your bias assumptions have steered you wrong.
You can get your free copy a scripture4all.

Wrong, again. Strong's is not a lexicon it is a concordance. You should familiarize yourself with the difference. Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.
I have both Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon and Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon on my laptop. They are the best available.
• Online Bible FAQ
Q:The Online Bible Strongs is not the same as my Exhaustive Strong’s Concordance. Why is that?
A: We used the Strong's system but the actual Greek and Hebrew to implement the numbers. By doing this we corrected about 15000 errors in the Strong's concordance.
Frequently Asked Questions - Online Bible Then click “The Online Bible Strongs is not the same as my Exhaustive Strong’s concordance.”
• Rebuilding Strong’s time-honored concordance from the ground up, biblical research experts John Kohlenberger and James Swanson have achieved unprecedented accuracy and clarity. Longstanding errors have been corrected. Omissions filled in. Word studies simplified. Thoroughness and ease of use have been united and maximized.
Zondervan Publishing the Strongest Strong’s.
The Strongest Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=33430&event=ECF
Links to BDB, Hebrew, and BAGD, Greek lexicons online.
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew-English Lexicon to the Old Testament : Francis Brown : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Gingrich & Danker

 

[HARK!]

Wrong, again. Strong's is not a lexicon it is a concordance.

You would do well to familiarize yourself with what I wrote, before you make a strawman argument.

 

[HARK!]

Strong's has been found to have about 15,000 errors or omissions.

Thank you for bringing this well known information forward. Not everyone knows this. However, one you have the Strong number, it makes it easier to compare that definition with other sources.

This scripture4all version is very nice for those who like to research their translations. The best part: IT'S FREE!

 

[Der Alte]

You would do well to familiarize yourself with what I wrote, before you make a strawman argument.

If you are using Strong's for word definitions you are in error. All of the definitions in Strong's are taken, right or wrong, from the KJV.

 

[HARK!]

If you are using Strong's for word definitions you are in error. All of the definitions in Strong's are taken, right or wrong, from the KJV.

LOL! Strong didn't get it wrong 100% of the time; and Strong isn't the only source I use. Your logic is in error.

 

[Billy UK]

Circumcision is not required

Acts 15:22-29 (KJV)

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law:
to whom we gave no such commandment

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
​

 

[HARK!]

Circumcision is not required

Not required for what?

 

[Lost4words]

No more needed than it was with Abraham. That was the whole point of the Jerusalem Council, to follow the Torah, not the Talmud.

(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed ion Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

(CLV) Ja 2:21
Abraham, our father, was he not justified by works when offering up his son Isaac on the altar?

(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

Yes, for the jews...

 

[HARK!]

Yes, for the jews...

Wrong. That letter was written to Israel.

 

[Lost4words]

Wrong. That letter was written to Israel.

You are wrong.....The Jewish nation. The old Covenant Israel....Jews....

God bless you my friend