THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe I did answer your question and respond to the scriptures raised my friend. You may need to sleep a little more. I just dealt with this 'freewill' idea fairly comprehensively at #134. Prisoners and slaves don't have freewill. This is what the entire lesson of the history of Israel and the Gospel of Isaiah is about - God saying I sent you Israel to be a light for the gentiles but you dropped the ball and were taken into slavery yourself, ah but don't worry I'll send another saviour to bust you out cause I love you. The entire gospel is good news for that very reason - Jesus saves us despite our sin and error, in fact his total victory occurs in the midst of man's worst crimes - regicide and deicide. Contemplate that my friend. For sons of Adam the exercise of free will can only lead to death. Why Jesus is the Last Adam. This is the underlying narrative pattern of the covenental relationship in scripture: God gives, Man fumbles, God's angered, Tribulation ensues, Man cries out, God saves. See the 'man fumbles...then cries out' bits? There's your exercise of 'free will' - 'We've all gone astray!' His Salvation is the OMEGA. How much clearer can the HS be? You want to say that the little fishies are stronger than the winch that pulls in the net. Consider Hosea, a type of Christ, who gave it all to buy back his worthless whoring bride. Doesn't matter she wants to sleep around, God loves you so much He'll go through hell and death to save you. That's what a positive covenant is, friend. You uphold your end regardless that the other party gives you cause to cancel out.One doesn't 'will to believe', that's called 'make-believe', or 'fantasy' and it's what Babylon runs on. Talk about imposing a modern western mindset on an ancient near-east text. Help my unbelief, Lord!

Actually no dear friend that is not true your mixing up free will with God's power to save a sinner. We are just getting started. So no more playing about now with introductions over. Let's talk scripture as only Gods Word is true and we should believe and follow them over the teachings of men that lead us away from God *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29.

Please keep up and if you disagree with me prove why through the scriptures if you cannot you have no excuse not to believe God's Word. Ok let's start. What you mix up with your claims on free will is this. Free will is what God gives to all mankind to make decision with to choose with. You mix up free will with God's power to accomplish what mankind spiritually chooses to do.

Let's test your interpretation of the scriptures. Mankind has no free will. So we look at the scriptures and we have JESUS going through all ISRAEL as he starts his ministry with the words "REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND *MATTHEW 3:2; MATTHEW 4:17: MARK 1:15; MARK 6:12; LUKE 13:3-5; LUKE 17:3-4. The APOSTLES and disciples proclaiming the same as JESUS in ACTS 2:38; ACTS 3:19; ACTS 8:22; ACTS 17:30; REVELATION 2:5.

Now according to your interpretation of the scriptures man has no free well to choose to follow God. If that is true according to you then JESUS and all the Apostles are taunting everyone to repent when they are not able to do so? If there was no free will there can be no salvation from from sin because no one is free to accept God's free gift of salvation. This is different of cause to being a slave to sin which before we choose to believe and follow God's Word we all are.

No one has the power to follow God before this power is given through God's Spirit when we choose to believe Gods' Word. It is in choosing to believe God's Word alone that we have power to walk in God's Spirit and it is in walking in God's Spirit that we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (please see ROMANS 7:12-19; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16). So after we excercise our free will to choose to believe God's Word what brings the power to walk in God's Word through God's Spirit? Drum roll please...

1 JOHN 5:4 [4], For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

ROMANS 8:1-4 [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

GALATIANS 5:16[16], This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

So how does the Gospel of God's free grace work? Well THROUGH FAITH of course *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. We get presented with the Word of God. We choose to believe or not believe (our part). If we do not believe we remain "UNBELIEVERS" and remain in sin. If we "BELIEVE" (have faith) on the Word of God only, we seek God in repentance and forgiveness and believe his promises *ACTS 2:38; 1 JOHN 1:9; JOHN 3:16. God's Spirit gives us the power then to walk in God's Word as we believe (have faith) *1 JOHN 5:4; 1 JOHN 3:6-9; ROMANS 8:1-4; GALATIANS 5:16; HEBREWS 8:10-11; ROMANS 3:31; ROMANS 13:8-10.

No one has salvation dear friend without having the free will to choose it. Free will allows us to accept God's free gift or reject God's free gift. God provides the POWER as we believe His Word. Your mixing up mans free will to choose with God's POWER to save! The power comes through the gospel as we choose to believe it.

ROMANS 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: FOR IT IS THE POWER OF GOD TO SALVATION TO EVERYONE THAT BELIEVES; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Hearing your not hearing dear friend. Do you know the scriptures in the post you were quoting from and what do you think they mean? You did not answer the question so I guess not. They mean we are not robots. God has given mankind freewill to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not to believe and follow his Word. For many are called, but few are chosen and wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads to life, and few there be that find it. JESUS is pleading with us everyday through his love and his Spirit drawing us to him in love patiently waiting for us to turn to him. It is up to us to open the door to let him in. If we close the door there is no way for JESUS to reach us. A separation of our own making or free choice.

Your response...

Think I might be headed for destruction if I can't learn more patience in addressing the same old canards time and again. The image of Jesus pleading with the church is an absolute travesty if he's coaxing us away from an eternal hellfire of his own making. The message is 'If you reject my sweet sweet love you'll burn in hell forever'. Hope you realise how psychotic that would be. Sounds more like the wicked witch of the west. Are you serious about that evil theology?

Is there any reason your only part quoting me here dear friend? How do your words posted here address the scriptures in the post you are quoting from? I asked you in this section of the post do you know these scriptures and what do you think they mean? As posted in the post you are quoting from you avoided answering this question and started talking about something entirely off topic to what you were quoting from. Never mind if you did not know the scriptures or did not want to answer the question just say so. You have "free will" to do as you please. As shown through the scriputres earlier which shows how you mix up free will with God's power for salvation. As posted to someone else earlier God is a God of love and mercy but he is also a God of justice and judgement and this is the reason why he sent JESUS to die on the cross for our sins and is where we see God's great love for us both personally and collectively. If God was not a God of judgement and Justice JESUS would not have had to come to pay man's penalty for sin so that we can receive Gods' Gift of eternal life and reconciliation. I see God's love in all of this, even in his justice don't you?

On your reading 99.99% of all Christians will be toast. Find me any great man of God in the Bible who didn't stuff up. This passage in Hebrews is concerned with new Hebrew Christians who are falling back into Jewish sacrificial practices. Paul is preaching that only Jesus' 'once and for all' sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sins, whereas the old system of ongoing animal sacrifices left everyone still anxious about being exposed to God's wrath. He's saying that you get a knowledge of your eternal security under the new covenant, and not needing to live in constant fear as under the old.

Not really dear Shrewd. The above are your words and not what the scriptures teach. The scriptures subject matter here is in relation to continuing in known unrepentant sin after we have received a knowledge of the truth of God’s Word.

HEBREWS 10:26-31 [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS,
[27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION, WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES. [28], He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: [29], OF HOW MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, SUPPOSE YOU, SHALL HE BE THOUGHT WORTHY, WHO HAS TRODDEN UNDER FOOT THE SON OF GOD, AND HAS COUNTED THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, WITH WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, AN UNHOLY THING, AND HAS DONE DESPITE TO THE SPIRIT OF GRACE? [30], For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs to me, I will recompense, said the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [31], IT IS A FEARFUL THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

Only God's Word is true dear friend and I see you have not provided any, accept your own words that disagree with Gods'. I know who I believe and follow and with all due respect it is not you of Brennan Manning.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed, ignoring it will not make it disappear. It will become our judge come judgement day *JOHN 12:47-48.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You tell em Nancy! All that untold misery done throughout history (and up to today!) due to the devil's pernicious doctrine of ECT, as exemplified by Queen Mary who saw herself as 'just doing God's work'. Not to mention that it makes God out to be a hypocrite and a failure. But God is not mocked, and the greater the surprise in store for all those who doubt the eternal and absolute victory of His good and perfect plan.

What are you talking about? Who believes in eternal conscious toment? Not me it is not biblical and a false teaching that has it's origins from the Roman Catholic Church. I believe that Universalism however is the doctrine of devils and is based on twisted scripture. Teaching all that it is ok to go and live like the devil today because you have a second chance at eternal life tommorrow when there are no second chances when JESUS returns *MATTHEW 7:12-27; MATTHEW 25:31-41; HEBREWS 10:26-31; REVELATION 22:12. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings of men that break the commandments of God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Unfortunately, as much as you love God's word, you are coming up short on the foundation of the koine

Airō is the foundation for what John beheld as he beheld the Saviour of the WHOLE kosmos!

"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the whole world."

airō =

To lift up/ to draw up.

To take upon Himself & carry it away.

To remove & appropriate was is taken.

I can understand why you would want it to appear that way by part quoting me but no your reference to the application of the Koine greek word airō does not change the meaning of the post that was shared with you when you do not part quote me. Please show us now how airō addresses the rest of the post shared with you below that you did not add to your post here?

...........

What part of not everyone that says LORD LORD will not enter the KINGDOM of God do you not understand dear friend *MATTHEW 7:21-22. As posted earlier; JESUS has made provision for the sins of the whole world. The scriptures do not teach anywhere that all the world will accept the gift of God's dear son as shown in MATTHEW 7:21-22.

The Greek verb "airo" you posted here does not effect anything that I have shared with you.

I already posted that JESUS making provision is for the sins of the whole World. I have only stated the scriptures show that the whole world will not accept free gift offered by Gods dear son.

And of course dear friend many made righteouss does not mean all will be made righteouss.

Many are called but few are chosen....

MATTHEW 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
1 CORINTHIANS 1:26 For you see your calling, brothers, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called

What is it you do not understand dear friend? May you receive Gods' Word and be blessed.

.........

Yep what have you got? - Nothing.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Dear Laz: The dogma of annihilation may be more humane than E.T. but accomplishes the exact consummation.

There is no dogma in the biblical teachings of annihilation which is the outpouring of God's justice and judgements. There is dogma though in the false teaching of universalism which will lead many who follow it to live like the devil today because they expect a second chance coming tommorrow, only to be disappointed at the second coming to find out only too late that there is no second chances to begin with when JESUS returns. How sad will that day be for many?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

But tell me, how does your annihilationism deal with the Biblical prediction that Death will be defeated...versus the continued death of the wicked? I see no logical or theological way around that.

Its is quite easy. After the death of the wicked there is no more death. Death is defeated and what caused death was sin. No more sin and death. I think you can see this is logical right?

Hope this is helpful

 

[FineLinen]

There is no dogma in the biblical teachings of annihilation which is the outpouring of God's justice and judgements.

Annihilation, like E.T., declares evil triumphant.

Abba is not able to bring to completion what He began as the A. & F. Instead of a triumphant Saviour who saves to the uttermost all mankind & the malista, His firstfruits, we are presented with complete failure with a capital "F" a nasty failing grade.

"Unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

Some of the translators make it kindness and goodness; but I presume there is no real difference among them as to the character of the word which here, in the English Bible, is translated mercy.

The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have been accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:--

'To You, O Lord, belongs justice, for You render to every man according to his work.' -George MacDonald-

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Annihilation, like E.T., declares evil triumphant.

Abba is not able to bring to completion what He began as the A. & F. Instead of a triumphant Saviour who saves to the uttermost all mankind & the malista, His firstfruits, we are presented with complete failure with a capital "F" a nasty failing grade.

"Unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

Some of the translators make it kindness and goodness; but I presume there is no real difference among them as to the character of the word which here, in the English Bible, is translated mercy.

The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have been accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:--

'To You, O Lord, belongs justice, for You render to every man according to his work.' -George MacDonald-

Oh Good greif right back at you dear friend. I do not see it this way at all. All I see is God's love. Why? God is a God of love and mercy but he is also a God of justice and judgement (plenty of scripture here just let me know) Where is God's love in Justice? It is seen when God sent his only begotten son JESUS to die on the cross for our sins and is where we see God's great love for us both personally and collectively. If God was not a God of judgement and Justice JESUS would not have had to come to pay man's penalty for sin so that we can receive Gods' Gift of eternal life and reconciliation. I see God's love in all of this, even in his justice don't you? If there was no justice and judgement for sin JESUS would not have had to die for our. Yet you do not seem to see this. The wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. God is a God of love and mercy to all those who hear and follow him and a God of justice and judgement to those who do not. There is no second chances at the second coming dear friend only justice and judgement. While those who are written in the lambs book of life have already received Love and Mercy. Do you not see Gods love in His Justice dear friend?

 

[FineLinen]

Questions like this are a matter of perception, where you are at in your journey inwards. ...

Most who believe in annihilation or eternal punishment also believe God foreknew before he created, I would think? I know I do ... Yet the book says it repented him that he had created man on the earth as if he didnt know before hand the outcome before he started, or that he had to go down to see for himself if what he heard was true concerning sodom and gomorrah, yet ... Jesus rebuked Thomas over a similar issue ...

The Bible is not the end, it is a means to an end ...

The Purpose Of Evil -A.P. Adams-

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL BY: A.P. ADAMS – Kingdom Resources

 

[FineLinen]

Oh Good greif right back at you dear friend. I do not see it this way at all. All I see is God's love. Why? God is a God of love and mercy but he is also a God of justice and judgement

The essence of God is Love/ Spirit/ Light & Reconciliation.

There is NO "also".

His perfect justice flows from His LOVE (His essence).

Keep your eyes on Him & His glorious essence from which His justice & judgement flows in reconciliation!

"Unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

Some of the translators make it kindness and goodness; but I presume there is no real difference among them as to the character of the word which here, in the English Bible, is translated mercy.

The religious mind, however, educated upon the theories yet prevailing in the so-called religious world, must here recognize a departure from the presentation to which they have been accustomed: to make the psalm speak according to prevalent theoretic modes, the verse would have to be changed thus:--

'To You, O Lord, belongs justice, for You render to every man according to his work.' -George MacDonald-

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The essence of God is Love/ Spirit/ Light & Reconciliation.

There is NO "also".

His perfect justice flows from His LOVE (His essence).

Keep your eyes on Him & His glorious essence from which His justice & judgement flows in reconciliation!

Depends if you believe Gods' Word or not. As posted in the post you are only part quoting me from God is a God of love and mercy to those who believe and follow him as well as a God of justice and judgement to those who do not. Here is the rest of the post you are hiding...

.............

All I see is God's love. Why? God is a God of love and mercy but he is also a God of justice and judgement (plenty of scripture here just let me know) Where is God's love in Justice? It is seen when God sent his only begotten son JESUS to die on the cross for our sins and is where we see God's great love for us both personally and collectively. If God was not a God of judgement and Justice JESUS would not have had to come to pay man's penalty for sin so that we can receive Gods' Gift of eternal life and reconciliation. I see God's love in all of this, even in his justice don't you? If there was no justice and judgement for sin JESUS would not have had to die for our. Yet you do not seem to see this. The wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing. God is a God of love and mercy to all those who hear and follow him and a God of justice and judgement to those who do not. There is no second chances at the second coming dear friend only justice and judgement. While those who are written in the lambs book of life have already received Love and Mercy. Do you not see Gods love in His Justice dear friend?

............

Sounds a little different when you add all the post you left out doesn't it dear friend? Can you see Gods love in Gods justice dear Fine? If you say no your saying you cannot see God's love in the BLOOD shed by JESUS for your sins.

May you receive God's Word and be blessed dear friend.

 

[FineLinen]

I can understand why you would want it to appear that way by part quoting me but no your reference to the application of the Koine greek word airō does not change the meaning of the post that was shared with you when you do not part quote me. Please show us now how airō addresses the rest of the post shared with you below theat you did not add to your post here?

The vast segments of what you post is gobbledegook. Try and keep it short.

The exact meaning of airō (in reference to what John beheld) as he saw the predestined Lord of the universe, declares the whole broken world of sin has a new Man on the block!

Airō is the foundation for what John beheld as he beheld the Saviour of the WHOLE kosmos!

"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the whole world."

airō =

To lift up/ to draw up.

To take upon Himself & carry it away.

To remove & appropriate was is taken.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The vast segments of what you post is gobbledegook. Try and keep it short.

No dear friend God's Word is not gobbledegook. It is the Word of God and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and his Word. Do you not believe the scriptures shared with you dear Fine? What is it you do not believe?

The exact meaning of airō (in reference to what John beheld) as he saw the predestined Lord of the universe, declares the whole broken world of sin has a new Man on the block!

Airō is the foundation for what John beheld as he beheld the Saviour of the WHOLE kosmos!

"Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the whole world."

airō =

To lift up/ to draw up.

To take upon Himself & carry it away.

To remove & appropriate was is taken.

As posted earlier your post and reference here has nothing to do with what you are quoting from in regards to the posts and scriptures that have been shared with you. If you disagree please show why. If you cannot why make claims and arguments no one is arguing about? What is it that you do not understand dear Fine?

 

[Scott Husted]

The Purpose Of Evil -A.P. Adams-

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL BY: A.P. ADAMS – Kingdom Resources

Basic logic really ...

 

[FineLinen]

No dear friend God's Word is not gobbledegook. It is the Word of God and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that lead us away from God and his Word. Do you not believe the scriptures shared with you dear Fine? What is it you do not believe?

The Living Word of the Lord is not gobbledegook. The dogmas of fallen mankind (the good, bad, & ugly) are.

I will disclose what I do believe.

I Believe

I believe in "the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began." -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the "good tidings of great joy will be to all people." -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ "heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe." -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that "no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." -John 6:44

I believe "God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him." -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father "has given all things into Jesus' hands." -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ "was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world." -John 1:9

I believe that "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men." -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin "brought condemnation for all mankind." -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings "right relationship with God, and new life for everyone." -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

I Believe

I believe that Jesus is “able to subdue all things to himself.” -Phil. 3:21-

I believe that Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will.” -Eph. 1:10,11-

I believe “the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” -2 Peter 3:9-

I Believe

I believe “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God was making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” -2 Cor. 5:19, 20-

I believe that “all nations shall be blessed.” -Gal. 3:8-

I believe that “the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” -John 6:33-

I believe that Jesus commanded us to be like himself: “Love your enemies, bless those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” -Matt. 5:44,45

I believe Jesus when he said: “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [Greek=draw, drag, impel] all mankind unto myself.”

I believe that “creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” -Romans 8:20,21-

I Believe

I believe "If anyone's work which he has built endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved yet so as through fire." -1 Cor. 3:14,15-

I believe "of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever." -Romans 11:36

I believe "all Israel shall be saved." -Romans 11:26-

I Believe

I believe "Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died." -2 Cor. 5:14-

I believe that "the head of every man is Christ, the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." -1 Cor. 11:3-

I believe that "all nations shall come and worship You, for Your judgements have been made manifested." -Rev. 15:4

I believe that "when God's judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." -Isa. 26:9-

I believe that "mercy shall triumph over judgement." -James 2:13-

I believe that "where sin abounded, grace abounded much more." -Romans 5:20-

I Believe

I believe that "God is love." -1 John 4:8-

I believe that "love never fails." -1 Cor. 13:8-

I believe that God never fails.

I believe "herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loves us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." -1 John 4:10-

I believe "God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them." -1 John 4:16-

I believe Jesus Christ "is the propitiation for our sins and not for our sins only but the sins of the whole world. -1 John 2:2-

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Living Word of the Lord is not gobbledegook. The dogmas of fallen mankind (the good, bad, & ugly) are.

I will disclose what I do believe.

Good now we are getting somewhere and neither is God's written Word. Scripture please dear friend and no more David Hart and Brennan Manning and pointing people to the teachings of men that lead others away from God and his Word and no more copy and pastes and video links. Lets have a discussion and talk scriptures please.

 

[Scott Husted]

What are you talking about? Who believe in eternal conscious toment? Not me it is not biblical and a false teaching that has it's origins from the Roman Catholic Church. I believe that Universalism however is the doctrine of devils and is based on twisted scripture. Teaching all that it is ok to go and live like the devil today because you have a second chance at eternal life tommorrow when there are no second chances when JESUS returns *MATTHEW 7:12-27; MATTHEW 25:31-41; HEBREWS 10:26-31; REVELATION 22:12. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings of men that break the commandments of God.

This seems to repudiate annihilation ...

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[FineLinen]

Good now we are getting somewhere and neither is God's written Word. Scripture please dear friend and no more David Hart and Brennan Manning and pointing people to the teachings of men that lead others away from God and his Word and no more copy and pastes and video links. Lets have a discussion and talk scriptures please.

I will discuss Scriptures relating to the subject. I will also continue to present individuals who grasp the Hope of all hopes of which I assure you has only begun.

Question =

How many were made sinners in Adam 1?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Great some scripture. Let's look at each one and look at the detail to see if your claims are true or not. My comments below...

The Living Word of the Lord is not gobbledegook. The dogmas of fallen mankind (the good, bad, & ugly) are. I will disclose what I do believe.

I Believe I believe in "the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began." -Acts 3:21-

The scripture says...

ACTS 3:21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

ἌΧΡΙ ΧΡΌΝΩΝ ἈΠΟΚΑΤΑΣΤ. ΠΆΝΤΩΝ] until times shall have come, in which all things will be restored. Before such times set in, Christ comes not from heaven. Consequently the times of the αἰὼν ὁ μέλλων itself—the ΚΑΙΡΟῚ ἈΝΑΨΎΞΕΩς—cannot be meant; but only such times as shall precede the Parousia, and by the emergence of which it is conditioned, that the Parousia shall ensue. Accordingly the explanation of the universal renewal of the world unto a glory such as preceded the fall (παλιγγενεσία, Matthew 19:28; comp. Romans 8:18 ff.; 2 Peter 3:13)

Nope not saying what you think it says.

I believe that the "good tidings of great joy will be to all people." -Luke 2:10

LUKE 2:10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people.

Expositor's Greek Testament Luke 2:10. εὐαγγελίζομαι, etc., I bring good news in the form of a great joy (cf. Luke 1:19).—παντὶ τῷ λαῷ, not merely to you, but to the whole people (of Israel, vide Luke 1:68). The gospel is good news for all people. It does not say the Gospel will be accepted by all people

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." -John 1:13-

Yep me to and sooo?

I believe
I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ "heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe." -Hebr. 1:2-

Yep me to. Sooo your point here?

I believe that "no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." -John 6:44

Yep me to. Sooo your point here?

I believe "God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him." -John 17:2-

Yep me to. Sooo your point here? Did God give all people to JESUS or those who choose to believe and follow what JESIS says?

I believe I believe the Father "has given all things into Jesus' hands." -John 13:3-

Yep me to. Sooo your point here? This does not mean that all men will be saved. It means JESUS has all power in heaven and in earth.

I believe that Jesus Christ "was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world." -John 1:9

Indeed agreed life come by JESUS creator of heaven and earth. Sooo your point here?

I believe that "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men." -Romans 5:18

Yep me to. Sooo your point here?

I believe one mans sin "brought condemnation for all mankind." -Romans 5: 19-

Yep me to. Sooo your point here?

I believe one mans righteousness brings "right relationship with God, and new life for everyone." -Romans 5:19- I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.

Indeed me too but only to those who receive JESUS and accept God's Gift of Grace through Faith *EPHESIANS 2:8-9. The scripture does not teach that all men will choose to be saved and have faith in JESUS which is the condtions of salvation now does it dear Fine?

I Believe I believe that Jesus is “able to subdue all things to himself.” -Phil. 3:21-

PHILIPPIANS 3:20-21 [20], For our conversation is in heaven; from where also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: [21], Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like to his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to transform all things to himself.

μετασχηματ.] shall transform.[173] What is meant is the ἀλλάσσειν of the body (1 Corinthians 15:51 f.) at the Parousia, which in this passage, just as in 1 Corinthians 15:52, Paul assumes that the ἩΜΕῖς will live to see. To understand it at the same time of the resurrection of the dead

"TRANSFORM ALL THINGS" here is in reference to the context. That is "our" "we" (BELIEVERS). This is not talking about "UNBELIEVERS" Your reading into the scriptures through universal glasses dear friend. The context show JESUS will transform all believers to his image v20-21. So not saying what your claiming dear Fine can you see that?

I believe that Jesus came “that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will.” -Eph. 1:10,11-

Yep me to. Sooo your point here?

I believe “the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” -2 Peter 3:9-

Yep me to. God is not willing that anyone should perish. Did you catch that? If people are going to perish how does that sit with your understanding of Universalism? Notice that the scripture does not day anywhere that all men shall be saved rather that God is not willing that they perish which they will if they do not repent.

I Believe I believe “God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors as though God was making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: be reconciled to God.” -2 Cor. 5:19, 20-

Yep me too. The scripture does not teach however that God forgives unrepentant sinners simply that he has made provision for all men to repent through his death which brings reconcilliation for all those who receive God's gift of Grace through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8. ὡς ὅτι θεὸς ἦν ἐν Χ. κόσμ. καταλλ. ἑαυτῷ] because, indeed, God in Christ was reconciling the world with Himself. On ὡς ὅτι,[238] utpote quod (to be analyzed: as it is the case, because), see Winer, p. 574 [E. T. 771]. The ἦν καταλλάσσων should go together (see already Chrysostom), and is more emphatic than the simple imperfect. Paul wishes, namely, to affirm of God, not simply what He did (κατήλλασσε), but in what activity He was; in the person and work of Christ (ἐν Χριστῷ) God was in world-reconciling activity. Sorry dear Fine your interpreation here is in error.

I believe that “all nations shall be blessed.” -Gal. 3:8-

Indeed the whole world is blessed. The gospel is good news. Not all people will accept it though according to the scriptures *HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; REVELATION 22:12.

I believe that “the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” -John 6:33-

Indeed God's Word is for all people. Not all people however will choose to eat of it.

I believe that Jesus commanded us to be like himself: “Love your enemies, bless those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” -Matt. 5:44,45

Yep me to. Sooo your point here?

I believe Jesus when he said: “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw [Greek=draw, drag, impel] all mankind unto myself.”

Ok how about you show all the reference here which says...
MATTHEW 12:47-48 [47], And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. [48], He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Now I agree that JESUS draws all men unto himself but the scripture do not teach all men will choose to stay with JESUS the very next verse v48 says those who reject the word of JESUS receives God's judgement in the last days at the second coming (See HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 25:31-41; 2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; REVELATION 22:12).

I believe that “creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected it in hope, because creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.” -Romans 8:20,21-

Context here is receiving God's forgivenes and walking in God's Spirit not unbelievers being saved. It is in reference to believers being saved by faith.

ROMANS 8:1-4. [1], There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2], For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. [3], For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4], That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Which is the context and context matters. Can you see your errors here dear Fine?

 

[FineLinen]

Great some scripture. Let's look at each one and look at the detail to see if your claims are true or not. My comments below...

The scripture says...

ACTS 3:21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

ἌΧΡΙ ΧΡΌΝΩΝ ἈΠΟΚΑΤΑΣΤ. ΠΆΝΤΩΝ] until times shall have come, in which all things will be restored. Before such times set in, Christ comes not from heaven. Consequently the times of the αἰὼν ὁ μέλλων itself—the ΚΑΙΡΟῚ ἈΝΑΨΎΞΕΩς—cannot be meant; but only such times as shall precede the Parousia, and by the emergence of which it is conditioned, that the Parousia shall ensue. Accordingly the explanation of the universal renewal of the world unto a glory such as preceded the fall (παλιγγενεσία, Matthew 19:28; comp. Romans 8:18 ff.; 2 Peter 3:13)

The Restitution is the radical all of pas. Nothing is not changed and transformed by the unprecedented renewal declared by the prophets and sages of the Living God.

Do you know what they declare?

What Does Acts 3:21 Mean? "Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets."

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This seems to repudiate annihilation ...

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Hi Scott how are you and nice to meet you and welcome. Interesting scripture Revaltion 14 though a little off topic to this OP. I will spend a bit of time here on it though if it may be of help. Though this is shared from another forum and not mine with some of mine added..

1. There are scriptures in the bible to suggest the wicked will finally be destroyed.
2. There are many instances in the bible which uses expressions such as "for ever" but was not referring to how we would measure the length of forever.

Now to point #1 here are a few scriptures.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Burning forever or eternal torment cannot be compromised with being destroyed, perishing, being consumed or being burnt up. It is either one or the other. The reality is that after the wicked is thrown into the lake of fire, God will at some time create a New Heaven and a New Earth which cannot be done if this scene of destruction is still taking place. All things will become new and no remnants on the past shall remain which includes the lake of fire and destruction of the wicked.

To point #2.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

(Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning)

1Ch 28:4 Howbeit the LORD God of Israel chose me before all the house of my father to be king over Israel for ever: for he hath chosen Judah to be the ruler; and of the house of Judah, the house of my father; and among the sons of my father he liked me to make me king over all Israel:

(David is no longer King over Israel)

There are more that I can't remember now but you get the idea. Words such as forever, is dependant on the subject for its length. Eternal, everlasting and forever when God is the subject really does mean forever, because God is eternal in the truest sense. Forever, in reference to a man is limited to the lifespan on the man. Husbands and wives take vows to love each other forever, but that is limited to their life. Same thing applies to the wicked in the lake of fire, they would experience the lake of fire forever, but as long as they are alive, until they are finally consumed, destroyed, perished. The wages of sin is death not eternal torment. To die means to perish. The reward of the saved, is eternal life. The reward of the wicked cannot be eternal life (in torment) as well.

..........

Also, we can directly compare Revelation 14:9-11 with ISAIAH 34:9-10. Take a read they are very similar and some people think ISAIAH is in reference to REVELATION here. The point here is the everlasting is in reference to being all burn't up (nothing more to burn).

There are obvious similarities between the two sets of scriptures. Brimstone is mentioned in both (Isa. 34:9 and Rev. 14:10). Smoke that goes up forever is also mentioned (Isa. 34:10 and Rev. 14:11). But, there are also differences. The torment of persons with fire and brimstone is only in Revelation.

Furthermore, this torment occurs in "in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb," which also is also only in Revelation. Fire is mention in Rev. 14:11, but not Isaiah 33:9-10. Also, Isaiah says "night and day," where Revelation says, "day and night." Isaiah is about judgment on Edom so it is not still bunring today it is all burned up. Revelation 14:9-11 I believe is in reference to the future where the wicked will be totally destroyed and not exist, just like Edom. John the apostle is using Old Testament illustrations to convey the concept that God's work of judgment is permanent, as is the case of Edom. In the presence of ther lamb and the Holy Angels is in reference to the 2nd coming when God's judgement are poured out on the wicked. Hope this is helpful.

God bless