THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

[LoveGodsWord]

Again you've missed the point. I already agreed that salvation is conditional so why you belabor the point is a mystery to me. We both agree that sinners are judged at the 2nd coming. Where you mis-characterize universalism is that "they can live like the devil." Living like the devil will lead to ending up in the lake of fire where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." I don't know of anyone who would like to be in a place where the will be weeping/gnashing of teeth as the LOF is a place of punishment. It's not a stay at the Hilton. So the germane question is, are those sinners in the LOF forever tormented there and never reconciled to God? I presume your answer is yes and mine is no. Since you answer in the affirmative why do answer in direct opposition to God's stated will?

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, firstborn out from the dead, so that He might be holding preeminence in all things, because all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens. Col 1:18-20

God's stated purpose in this passage is to RECONCILE ALL THINGS TO HIMSELF. Your view is impossible to reconcile with God's purpose statement as stated here because in your view, those in the LOF are eternally punished and remain forever unreconciled to God. All scripture passages in terms of mankind's future destiny have to be interpreted light of God's stated will/purpose - not the other way around as you attempt to do. What God wills, he is able to accomplish - despite your protestation.

Not at all dear friend. I did not miss any point you made. Your point was a mute point as shown in the very post you are quoting from. What do you think the post you are quoting from says in your own words? It is the timing of God's judgements that is being shown that disprove your claims here. Conditional salvation is in relation to being BEFORE the second coming. I think this is what you have missed from the very post you are quoting from. Do you want to have another go at it? There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for all those who are cast into the lake of fire because no one wants to go there. It does not mean there going to continue in the lake of fire having a hot bath crying until they tell JESUS they want to repent now. They are going to be destroyed. Goodness dear friend what kind of God do you serve? One that forces people by torturing them to follow him? This is not the God of the bible that I know.

 

[coffee4u]

The "Mark" that is being missed is obedience to God's law (10 commandments) or not believing God's Word. Many are called but few are chosen the scriptures teach. Sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *JAMES 2:10-11; 1 JOHN 3:4; ROMANS 7:7 and not believing God's Word *ROMANS 14:23

The commandments in the ten commandments are but a tiny part of sin.
Romans 14:23
everything that does not come from faith is sin

Nor are we under the 10 commandments as a written law, we are under the spiritual law which is far wider and deeper than 10 simple commandments. The written law was given to man to show him that he was a sinner in need of a saviour. The law will not save you, only Jesus can.
Acts 13:39
39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The commandments in the ten commandments are but a tiny part of sin.
Romans 14:23
everything that does not come from faith is sin

Nor are we under the 10 commandments as a written law, we are under the spiritual law which is far wider and deeper than 10 simple commandments. The written law was given to man to show him that he was a sinner in need of a saviour. The law will not save you, only Jesus can.
Acts 13:39
39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

What do you think the post and scriptures you are quoting from says? It does not say what your making it say.

 

[Oldmantook]

Not at all dear friend. I did not miss any point you made. Your point was a mute point as shown in the very post you are quoting from. What do you think the post you are quoting from says in your own words? It is the timing of God's judgements that is being shown that disprove your claims here. Conditional salvation is in relation to being BEFORE the second coming. I think this is what you have missed from the very post you are quoting from. Do you want to have another go at it? There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth for all those who are cast into the lake of fire because no one wants to go there. It does not mean there going to continue in the lake of fire having a hot bath crying until they tell JESUS they want to repent now. They are going to be destroyed. Goodness dear friend what kind of God do you serve? One that forces people by torturing them to follow him? This is not the God of the bible that I know.

If one repents now, they avoid going to the LOF. THAT IS THE CONDITION. If one fails to meet the condition they end up a sinner and in the LOF. As I wrote earlier, do they end up in the LOF forever which is the question you ignored. If you believe in annihilation how does that square with Col 1:18-20 which I cited? Those who are annihilated/destroyed remain forever UNRECONCILED to God. How do you explain away that inconvenient discrepancy?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If one repents now, they avoid going to the LOF. THAT IS THE CONDITION. If one fails to meet the condition they end up a sinner and in the LOF. As I wrote earlier, do they end up in the LOF forever which is the question you ignored. If you believe in annihilation how does that square with Col 1:18-20 which I cited? Those who are annihilated/destroyed remain forever UNRECONCILED to God. How do you explain away that inconvenient discrepancy?

Yes I believe it means annihilated/destroyed. It squares up quite easily as COLOSSIANS 1:18-20 is in relation to God's plan of salvation and the all sufficient blood of Christ given for the sins of the whole world for reconciliation. The context to to believers. It says no where in these versus that all the world will accept the gift of God's dear son and be saved. The scriptures in fact teach the opposite *MATTHEW 25:31-41; HEBREWS 10:26-31. The reconciliation is sufficient and is made for all mankind. It does not say all mankind will choose to accept God's gift.

........many are called but few are chose... wide is the gate that leads to death and many there be that go in there at, but narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it....

The scriptures are not saying everyone will be saved. It is simply saying JESUS has made provision for it and through his blood all can be saved if they choose to be. We access this gift by Grace faith though *EPHESIANS 2:8-9; sadly many will choose not to believe and reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23 and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing *HEBREWS 10:26-21.

Hope this helps.

 

[Aussie Pete]

THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM?

Hi all I have noticed in this forum that there is a handful of people going around and consistently promoting a dangerous false teaching called “Universalism” which is based on twisting and cherry picking the scriptures out of context to try and teach that God does not hold anyone accountable for sin and that all people will be eventually saved. I will post why I believe this to be a false teaching that is not biblical shortly.

Let’s first start with a definition of what the concept of Christian Universalism is.

Christian universalism refers to the idea that every human will be saved in a religious or spiritual sense. This specific idea being called universal reconciliation. (Source: wiki)

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS? IF UNIVERSALISM IS TRUE DOES THAT MEAN GOD IS LYING WHEN HE SAYS NOT EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED WHO CALL ME LORD LORD AND MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW WILL BE CHOSEN? I believe the answer to this is simple. Of course not.

What do the teachings of universalism (everyone will be saved no matter what they do) means to you? For me I do not believe in the Catholic teaching of eternal burning Hell this is not biblical but neither is the false teaching that all people will be saved regardless of sin.

For me this is a false teaching that is not biblical based on twisted scripture and a sign of the last days before JESUS returns. We are already seeing plagues and pestilence, wars and rumours of wars, famine like never before in quick succession. Today there are over 40,000 different form of Christianity most representing false teachings and false messengers (prophets) which are another sign of the end times *MATTHEW 24:24.

I believe it is time to get our houses in order and seek the Lord while he may be found.

For me Universalism is a false teaching as God’s salvation is conditional which we will look at shortly and a fulfillment of the scriptures…

2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4 [3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. [4], And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned to fables.

1 THESSALONIANS 5:2-3 [2], For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. [3], For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes on them, as travail on a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I will show why I believe the scrpitures do not teach everyone will be saved regardless of sin (Universalism) in the coming posts from the scriptures alone adding as little comments as possible and let the scriptures do the talking.

Friendly discussion please

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word

People are way too focused on sin as the prime problem. It is not. Everyone, be they nice, obnoxious, introverted, extroverted, intelligent or dumb is born spiritually dead. God is not going to accept dead people into His home. Lord Jesus came that we might have life. Those who reject Him in this life suffer the second death. Sin is simply the outworking of death.

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes I believe it means annihilated/destroyed. It squares up quite easily as COLOSSIANS 1:18-20 is in relation to God's plan of salvation and the all sufficient blood of Christ given for the sins of the whole world for reconciliation. It says no where in these versus that all the world will accept the gift of God's dear son. The scriptures in fact teach the opposite. The reconciliation is made for all mankind not all mankind will choose to accept it.

........many are called but few are chose... wide is the gate that leads to death and many there be that go in there at, but narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it....

You have misinterpreted the scripture.

You have failed to answer. God's purpose as stated in Col 1:18-20 is to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself. Since annihilationists such as yourself like you believe that sinners in the LOF are never reconciled to God and are thus destroyed, you totally ignore the verse in order to cling to your doctrine.
Like I said, all scripture must conform to God's purpose statement. You have done the exact opposite by claiming that only some will be reconciled to God. Most people in your view are never reconciled to God -despite what the Colossians passage plainly states.
Moreover your lack of Greek understanding is apparent which only serves to further undermine your view. FYI a more accurate translation of the verse is you cited is:
For small is the gate and narrow the way leading to life, and few are those finding it. (BLB) The word "find" in this verse is εὑρίσκοντες transliterated as heuriskontes. This word is a present tense participle rendered as FINDING. At the time Jesus spoke these words he was simply referring to those few who are presently finding the narrow way. Thus the present participle tense cannot be construed to apply to some future time as you improperly do. Few who find the way presently does not preclude the possibility that others will find it eventually - though unfortunately for them they have to go through the LOF first.

 

[mmksparbud]

You have failed to answer. God's purpose as stated in Col 1:18-20 is to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself. Since annihilationists such as yourself like you believe that sinners in the LOF are never reconciled to God and are thus destroyed, you totally ignore the verse in order to cling to your doctrine.
Like I said, all scripture must conform to God's purpose statement. You have done the exact opposite by claiming that only some will be reconciled to God. Most people in your view are never reconciled to God -despite what the Colossians passage plainly states.
Moreover your lack of Greek understanding is apparent which only serves to further undermine your view. FYI a more accurate translation of the verse is you cited is:
For small is the gate and narrow the way leading to life, and few are those finding it. (BLB) The word "find" in this verse is εὑρίσκοντες transliterated as heuriskontes. This word is a present tense participle rendered as FINDING. At the time Jesus spoke these words he was simply referring to those few who are presently finding the narrow way. Thus the present participle tense cannot be construed to apply to some future time as you improperly do. Few who find the way presently does not preclude the possibility that others will find it eventually - though unfortunately for them they have to go through the LOF first.

As you, yourself, pointed out---Jesus can not forgive those who do not repent. There is no reconciliation for the unrepentant. God does not force the will. That is something that you guys can not seem to acknowledge. God doesn't send anyone to the lake of fire to torture them into submission. They are in the lake of fire for the simple reason that they refuse to be covered by the blood of Christ and can not be protected from the Holy fire that is coming from God.

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Isa 33:16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.
Isa 33:17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

God isn't going to force anyone into submission. His fire is destruction to those not covered by the blood of Jesus--there is no coming out of the lake of fire unto eternal life with Jesus. Not one verse states that. It always consumes the wicked.

Isa_30:27 Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
Isa_30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
2Ki_1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I be a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
2Ki_1:12 And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I be a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
Job_1:16 While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
Eze_20:47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
Eze_28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Rev_20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Thjere is no reconciliation for these. The reconcilation is available to all---not all will accept it. We do not tell God what to do---He tells us.
Good nite.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You have failed to answer

Not really dear friend it is simply that you failed to believe what was shared with you when I only provided the scriptures.

God's purpose as stated in Col 1:18-20 is to reconcile ALL THINGS to Himself.

The scriptures actually say this....

COLOSSIANS 1:18-20 [18], And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. [19], For it pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell;
[20], And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things to himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

I believe it is your interpretation of these scriptures I disagreed with and you were shown that the context says that the blood of JESUS reconciles all sin and JESUS has made provision for the whole World. The scriptures do not say all the world will choose to be reconciled now do they. This is shown through many other scriptures already shared with you. For example *MATTHEW 25:31-41; HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 7:13-27; MATTHEW 24:14.

The WIDE GATE leads to DESTRUCTION ἀπώλεια; apōleia (MATTHEW 7:13) dear friend and that is where we are told the many will be going. Destruction (G684) means ruin or loss physical, spiritual or eternal: - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, perish, pernicious ways, waste.

Since annihilationists such as yourself like you believe that sinners in the LOF are never reconciled to God and are thus destroyed, you totally ignore the verse in order to cling to your doctrine.

Nonsense. I have addressed your scripture in detail showing the context and application and why it disagrees with your interpretation of it. You are simply ignoring all the scriptures that disagree with with you in order to cling to your doctrine.

Like I said, all scripture must conform to God's purpose statement. You have done the exact opposite by claiming that only some will be reconciled to God.

Nonsense, I have done no such thing I have demonstrated both context, purpose and application of the scriptures to subject matter and reference to other scriptures all you have done is hand waive this as if it was not there. This demonstrated why your interpretation is in error. The scriptures teach no where that all men will be reconcilled to God it teaches that the blood of JESUS has made provision for all men to be reconcilled through his blood. Context is to all "BELIEVERS" that accepted God's gift. The scripture do not teach all people will be saved. Your reading this into the scriptures which in turn contradict other scripture like MATTHEW 25:31-41; HEBREWS 10:26-31; MATTHEW 7:13-27; MATTHEW 24:14 that show those who reject God's gift receive God's judgements and are destroyed.

Most people in your view are never reconciled to God -despite what the Colossians passage plainly states. Moreover your lack of Greek understanding is apparent which only serves to further undermine your view.

I would suggest that it is people in your view that cling to their unbiblical teachings that will never give them up no matter how many scriptures are provided or contextual application to interpretation and subject matter are provided because there not really here for a discussion and have no thoughts to considering that perhaps there interpretation of the scriptures are in error no matter what is shared with them. Well you know what they say you can always lead a horse to water...

FYI a more accurate translation of the verse is you cited is: For small is the gate and narrow the way leading to life, and few are those finding it. (BLB) The word "find" in this verse is εὑρίσκοντες transliterated as heuriskontes. This word is a present tense participle rendered as FINDING.

Yep and this changes the contextual meanings of the WIDE and narrow Gate how? - Yep it doesn't. Everyone reading is in the present tense participle. Is God's Word for the dead or the living? The living are always present tense participle.

At the time Jesus spoke these words he was simply referring to those few who are presently finding the narrow way. Thus the present participle tense cannot be construed to apply to some future time as you improperly do. Few who find the way presently does not preclude the possibility that others will find it eventually - though unfortunately for them they have to go through the LOF first.

Oh what nonsense. WE are in the present tense partical. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. Next thing you will start claiming that when JESUS speaks things to JEWS he does it is not mean't to be applied to Christians yet the scriptures teach all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable.... 2 TIMOTHY 3:16.

Ok wanna try again?

 

[martymonster]

Listening to people quote scripture verses that they do not understand, is exactly like listening to kid's using big words that they don't know the meaning of. You have to ignore a lot of scripture to hold to the notion that God is going to torture most of his creation in literal flames, for all eternity.

 

[Peter J Barban]

It's ironic that those who claim everyone is saved are probably not saved themselves.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Listening to people quote scripture verses that they do not understand, is exactly like listening to kid's using big words that they don't know the meaning of. You have to ignore a lot of scripture to hold to the notion that God is going to torture most of his creation in literal flames, for all eternity.

Yep that is a Catholic teaching it is not biblical

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

Acts 7:60 shows how to petition the King for mercy on behalf of others.

We all have the right to do that, but his will be done.

He will deny us no good thing. That’s a promise.

 

[martymonster]

Yep that is a Catholic teaching it is not biblical

Annihilation is almost as bad.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Annihilation is almost as bad.

Well that is the wages of known unrepentant sin to all those who practice it and who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. That is also the reason God sent his only begotten son they whosoever believes on him should not perish but everlasting life. Sin cost the life of God's dear son who was sinless so that we could be reconciled to God. I do not know about you but I see God's love dear friend how about you?

 

[martymonster]

Well that is the wages of known unrepentant sin to all those who practice it and who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. That is also the reason God sent his only begotten son they whosoever believes on him should not perish but everlasting life. Sin cost the life of God's dear son who was sinless so that we could be reconciled to God. I do not know about you but I see God's love dear friend how about you?

Here's the problem: You can't just take a verse, and take it at face value. The wages of sin is death, yes, but what death a we talking here? If you read the bible very much, you'll know that there is more than one. You'll also be aware that God does not consider physical death to be death. It's funny, he just does not seem to be interested in the physical at all, for some reason?

Luk 8:49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
Luk 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
Luk 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

So the wages of sin clearly aren't physical death, because that is obviously not death, according to Christ.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So absolutely the wages of sin are death, but does that mean physical death? No, the wages of sin are death to the old man, and that's a good thing. The old man must die, before the new man can can come, and that new man is Christ.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Here's the problem: You can't just take a verse, and take it at face value. The wages of sin is death, yes, but what death a we talking here? If you read the bible very much, you'll know that there is more than one. You'll also be aware that God does not consider physical death to be death. It's funny, he just does not seem to be interested in the physical at all, for some reason?

Luk 8:49 While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.
Luk 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
Luk 8:51 And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden.
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

So the wages of sin clearly aren't physical death, because that is obviously not death, according to Christ.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So absolutely the wages of sin are death, but does that mean physical death? No, the wages of sin are death to the old man, and that's a good thing. The old man must die, before the new man can can come, and that new man is Christ.

Ok so how does that disagree with anything you are quoting from? If it doesn't where is the problem?

 

[FineLinen]

Annihilation is almost as bad.

Yup!

Take your choice.

The Saviour of all mankind: zero.

The fallen children of Adam1 = most minus a few.

"God is the Saviour of ALL mankind, especially those who believe/ trust in Him. Command & teach.."

Alternate plan b =

God tries to save all mankind but fails to secure the objective ?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yup!

Take your choice.

The Saviour of all mankind: zero.

The fallen children of Adam1 = most minus a few.


"God is the Saviour of ALL mankind, especially those who believe/ trust in Him. Command & teach.."

Alternate plan b =

God tries to save all mankind but fails to secure the objective ?

Not really, the bible teaches not all mankind will accept Gods' free gift. Sad really. No second chances come judgement time.

 

[martymonster]

Ok so how does that disagree with anything you are quoting from? If it doesn't where is the problem?

I don't think you are quite getting what I'm saying. I'm saying you can't just take a verse in isolation, because it is most likely not going to mean what you think it does. I was using the word "death" as an example.