Why we should get back to work ASAP

[nonaeroterraqueous]

No, I didn't. I said that 80-90% don't end up hospitalized. I said nothing about them being counted among confirmed cases or not.

Then you have no way of knowing what percent are staying home and getting over it without confirmation by testing. If ninety percent aren't going to the hospitals, then that represents a great number of people who may not be getting tested and confirmed.

Have you actually done the math to see how quickly the virus would need to spread for that to happen in the 2 weeks mentioned in the post I was replying to?

What do you want me to do, copy and paste my post again? I showed you that herd immunity was already within the ballpark. The calculations could be off, but it doesn't matter, because it's ballpark. It may not even be correct, but my goal was only to show plausibility.

It's pretty staggering and strains credibility.

Your credulity is not my concern. I think I've made my point well enough to end it, here.

 

[DaisyDay]

With all their muslim and african no-go zones, the question is if Swedish government even had any possible chance to order something.

That is pure disinformation.

Because police, firefighers or ambulances are not allowed to go there, its practically impossible to test or control coronavirus there. So the Swedish gov must play a benevolent way to save their face.

Again, this is ridiculously false.

Nothing is as simple as it looks.

Some things are exactly as simple as they appear.

 

[DaisyDay]

I’ve seen some people portray it as a conflict between epidemiologists and economists, but that’s all wrong. Serious economists know what they don’t know — they recognize and respect experts from other disciplines. A survey of economists found almost unanimous support for “tolerating a very large contraction in economic activity until the spread of infections has dropped significantly.”

No, this push to reopen is coming not from economists but from cranks and cronies. That is, it’s coming on one side from people who may describe themselves as economists but whom the professionals consider cranks — people like Navarro or Stephen Moore, who Trump tried unsuccessfully to appoint to the Federal Reserve Board.

Opinion | Economists Aren’t the Ones Pushing to Reopen the Economy

 

[solid_core]

It's easy to forget that people actually believe such dreck.

FACT CHECK: Crime in Sweden, Part III: Does Sweden Have 'No-Go Zones' Where the Police Can't Enter?

Have you been to Sweden?

We can put links here like cards in poker:
Number of Sweden's No-Go Zones Rises

But personal experience is needed. Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe and not because everything is OK there.

 

[Belk]

Have you been to Sweden?

We can put links here like cards in poker:
Number of Sweden's No-Go Zones Rises

But personal experience is needed. Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe and not because everything is OK there.

Brietbart?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Have you been to Sweden?

We can put links here like cards in poker:
Number of Sweden's No-Go Zones Rises

Unless your source is something other than Breitbart; joker cards don't count.

But personal experience is needed. Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe and not because everything is OK there.

Personal experience? Have you been raped in Sweden?

Perhaps you'll know the difference between a terrible neighborhood and a "no-go" zone; we've got plenty of areas here in the US of A that most people wouldn't venture around after dark... and even going around in the daytime is ill-advised.

 

[DaisyDay]

Unless your source is something other than Breitbart; joker cards don't count.

Not just Breitbart, but Breitbart from two and half years ago.

 

[Pommer]

With all their muslim and african no-go zones, the question is if Swedish government even had any possible chance to order something.

Because police, firefighers or ambulances are not allowed to go there, its practically impossible to test or control coronavirus there. So the Swedish gov must play a benevolent way to save their face.

Nothing is as simple as it looks.

Odd how you know when to capitalize proper names when it suits you.

 

[Kentonio]

But personal experience is needed. Sweden has become the rape capital of Europe and not because everything is OK there.

Considering that the reporting rate for rape is horrifically low, I wouldn’t jump on a higher rate as automatically reflective of actual numbers in this particular case. The Nordic countries tend to be considerably less macho and sexist than the other European countries (the south and the east are usually the worse by far) and frankly it stretches credulity to think they have more rapes per capita then the others.

 

[Fantine]

Let's face it. Companies have been ignoring their responsibilities for a long time, and Trump's deregulation squad in Labor and EPA are part of the problem.
Factories need to be made safe for workers before they reopen. PPE's and safe distancing are necessary, along with reasonable sick leave policies AND affordable healthcare--provided by government or the company.
600 people infected in one Sioux Falls plant, unleashed into a city of 190,000.
And re: health insurance. In Wuhan up to 70% of those infected had lung and even heart and kidney damage months later. The low paid service and factory workers with permanent health damage and our callous government policies might as well have gotten a death warrant.
It makes me sick to see the dark forces in the Republican Party trying to change the narrative. What seemed unthinkable--"Let the grandparents sacrifice themselves for the economy" is now getting pushed by the immoral.
And sadly, echoed by many (not all) conservatives who mistakenly called themselves "pro life" and now are ready to sell out Grandpa and the medically vulnerable for thirty pieces of silver. They disgust me.

 

[charsan]

Yes, look at Sweden with its number of dead, a number higher than its Nordic neighbors, all for the sake of liberty and freedom. That’s liberty with a death wish. No thanks. A liberty at all costs, such that preserving liberty necessarily means more people dying as a result, isn’t any rational notion of liberty. It doesn’t make sense to preserve liberty, hades or high water in doing so.

Wrong 13,822, so what is the population of Sweden? 10.23 million. Let's do the math that most people won't do because they either can't or there are sheeple and hate freedom and liberty. 13,822/10.23 million = 0.00133934108 that is a small amount. The unconstitutional, freedom killing lock-down is killing far more than Sweden's freedoms are. It seems many here hate freedom maybe they should go to North Korea then they can be locked down all the time. As Ben Franklin said:

 

[Goonie]

Wrong 13,822, so what is the population of Sweden? 10.23 million. Let's do the math that most people won't do because they either can't or there are sheeple and hate freedom and liberty. 13,822/10.23 million = 0.00133934108 that is a small amount. The unconstitutional, freedom killing lock-down is killing far more than Sweden's freedoms are. It seems many here hate freedom maybe they should go to North Korea then they can be locked down all the time. As Ben Franklin said:

And the 2020 award for not understanding statistics goes to......

 

[Belk]

Wrong 13,822, so what is the population of Sweden? 10.23 million. Let's do the math that most people won't do because they either can't or there are sheeple and hate freedom and liberty. 13,822/10.23 million = 0.00133934108 that is a small amount. The unconstitutional, freedom killing lock-down is killing far more than Sweden's freedoms are. It seems many here hate freedom maybe they should go to North Korea then they can be locked down all the time. As Ben Franklin said:

So your claim is what? That you are OK risking others lives? That we collectively should decide the threshold where other peoples lives should be spent? Very well, make your case. Why should these lives be sacrificed?

 

[Yttrium]

It's not surrendering freedom, it's temporarily relinquishing it to preserve life. I put my freedoms on hold for six weeks when I went into military basic training. I certainly don't regret it. By your standards, nobody should join the military at all, and we kind of need it.

Ben was talking about a more permanent thing.

Personally, this lockdown doesn't limit my freedoms much at all, but I'm a hermit type.

 

[gaara4158]

If you want to go back to work so bad, I hear the grocery stores are hiring.

 

[Vylo]

Wrong 13,822, so what is the population of Sweden? 10.23 million. Let's do the math that most people won't do because they either can't or there are sheeple and hate freedom and liberty. 13,822/10.23 million = 0.00133934108 that is a small amount. The unconstitutional, freedom killing lock-down is killing far more than Sweden's freedoms are. It seems many here hate freedom maybe they should go to North Korea then they can be locked down all the time. As Ben Franklin said:

That quote gets mangled way too much.

It is actually: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

The "essential", and "little temporary" get left out to try to dissuade anything that might require people not have absolute freedom.

 

[NotreDame]

Wrong 13,822, so what is the population of Sweden? 10.23 million. Let's do the math that most people won't do because they either can't or there are sheeple and hate freedom and liberty. 13,822/10.23 million = 0.00133934108 that is a small amount. The unconstitutional, freedom killing lock-down is killing far more than Sweden's freedoms are. It seems many here hate freedom maybe they should go to North Korea then they can be locked down all the time. As Ben Franklin said:

Why are you obsessing over Sweden’s numbers when discussing the U.S.? Wake up man.

Second, your analysis, even of Sweden’s numbers, is pathetically flawed. The 13,822 is the number of confirmed positives. The number of deaths in Sweden is 1,511. The mortality rate then is over 1%. Why you are taking the total number of infections and dividing by the total population is mysterious when discussing liberty at all costs even if some people die because of it.

Which brings me to my next point. Bravo for trivializing those who are dead because of the virus. You truly are summoning Stalin’s comment of, “If only one man dies of hunger, that is a tragedy. If millions die, that’s only statistics.”

The sentiment is the same with your logic of,
“that is a small amount.” Oh! Okay. The preservation of our liberty killed 250,000, but our population is 350,000,000, meaning we only lost a small amount of our population, 0.000714285714286, to be exact. Drop in the bucket! To liberty and the death it brings to the small, chump change amount of 250,000.

That’s your argument. It’s a poor argument. You are transacting human lives for liberty. But it is crazy to think that to have liberty means people must die and if they do, eh!

Yet, your argument suffers from ignoring the tenable notion there can be liberty and in having it, people do not have to die because of it. Liberty and the preservation of it at the expense of human life is a liberty with a death wish, and liberty at the expense of human life, killing people and their liberty to live, is reckless and negligent liberty. As Lincoln said,”By general law life and limb must be protected; yet often a limb must be amputated to save a life; but a life is never wisely given to save a limb.”

You could benefit from re-reading Franklin’s quote. It isn’t applicable to these circumstances. Nobody is “surrendering” their liberties. Nobody is clamoring to “permanently” relinquish their liberties.

Franklin’s quote doesn’t make or support your view a liberty at the expense of human life is warranted.

 

[eclipsenow]

Poverty and starvation is by far more lethal than covid.

I haven't read the UN report which probably focusses on the economic impacts across India and Africa where the working class in developing countries don't work, they starve. Fox News is hardly going to explain THAT factoid in its unswerving support for Trump.

But in first world nations like America, you're hardly going to starve if you don't work. It's just a completely misapplied headline! Indeed, Covid 19 is rapidly becoming the number one killer in America and it's only just ramping up! Australia is at 2 deaths per million, and because we locked down early we've nearly killed it off. America is at 118 deaths per million and rising, and Covid has a 1% to 3% fatality rate, meaning it can get all the way up to 10,000 to 30,000 per million! See how it's just getting started? The Washington Post says it's currently number 2 in deaths per week.

 

[eclipsenow]

The full effects of the economic downturn will be bad I'm sure, maybe even worse than the Great Depression. But unlike the 1920's and 30's, I'm thinking the recovery should be a lot shorter with the technological advantages we have today. Working remotely and other IT/e-commerce options surely should be helpful, no? A lot of the "non-essential" jobs will come back, granted gradually, as those of us who are working remotely can start driving/commuting back to the office. Gas stations, bars, restaurants, etc. will be in higher demand. I can't wait to get a haircut!

Am I being overly optimistic?

I'm with you! The economics are serious, but no where near as dangerous as this virus. We have modern economic tools to 'hibernate' the economy like we are in Australia, where the government is paying $1500 to companies shut by the virus (like bars and restaurants) to keep their employees - to keep those economic relationships intact until we've killed the virus in this country! (Which could be soon, we've been under 50 new cases per day for a while and it's going down.)

Then, when we've killed it, we'll start up bit by bit - with social distancing practices just for sure. We'll use track and trace apps to track it, and eradicate any hot spots. If we have to, we can lock down again. We're borrowing from the future to pay for this crisis as we should.

New science indicates there is all the more reason to lock down.

WHO have indicated there may not be herd immunity with this one! That means the damage isn't done at 60% of the population and it could mutate and just keep going. That means fatality rates of up to 1% to 3% of the ENTIRE population which, in America, could be 3.3 million to 9.9 or nearly 10 million!

 

[Nithavela]

Ah yes, the "think of the children" card.

Hate to break it to you, but children don't die because daddy has to stay home for a couple of weeks. At least not in developed countries.