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By definition, that isn't the whole law.
James was referring to "Love your neighbor as yourself," (James 2:8) which is something both Jew and Gentile are bound to. He was not claiming that Gentiles are bound to kosher laws or circumcision or Sabbath observance as a matter of either salvation or obedience.
Now you are picking and choosing what part of the law to keep and what to ignore. The fact is James wrote that favoritism constitutes breaking of the law. If the law no longer applies as you claim, James could not have made such a statement. I prefer to believe James.
Paying attention to James 2:11, we see:
Where does it state that in Acts 15? Verse please; not merely your unsupported opinion. I gave you verses in that chapter to support my opinion which you simply refused to deal with.
The fact is you never replied to the fact that the council did not want to BURDEN and make it too difficult for the gentiles who were turning to God for salvation (v.19). Thus they came up with the "short-list" of things contained in the law that they should refrain from in order to be saved. The very next verse (v.20) gives James' reason why as the gentile believers would attend Sabbath every week and thus they would hear Moses preached and gain greater understanding of what is required of them in obedience to the law. Address the context please instead of ignoring it.
The problem with that is, it falls well short of obeying the entire law. And your interpretation of these verses goes against the context of Acts 15 itself, and it goes against what is taught in the other verses I have previously shared. It also makes no sense to say that circumcision is an act of obedience rather than justification, and then come against people who say that you don't have to follow the entire Law. It's saying, you don't have to do this to be saved, but you'd better do it. There is zero Biblical evidence that Paul, James, Peter, John, or any of the other NT authors, or even the Judaizers they argued against were splitting hairs along those lines. Either Gentile converts to Christianity had to be circumcised, or they didn't have to be. That was the debate. The Holy Spirit said they didn't have to be. So, there is no room for saying that you need to go through that as a matter of obedience rather than justification.
Let me ask you a very simple question to hopefully make things clearer. Do you have to be baptized in water first in order to be saved. I presume your answer is in the negative since we both acknowledge that faith alone saves. But we both know that the scriptures command us to be baptized out of obedience once we are saved, correct? And that is precisely the same difference between being justified and being obedient regarding circumcision. We are saved by faith in order that grace abounds that we may be able to obey the law; not disregard it. Cognitive dissonance is a difficult thing to overcome; particularly regarding the things we assumed we were taught correctly when we first became Christians.
You have proposed an argument from silence which is the weakest form of argumentation. For example, Jesus also did not say anything about abortion either, but abortion is wrong.
Abortion in most cases is a form of murder, and murder is explicitly condemned by Jesus and the New Testament writers. Furthermore, we know that Jesus during his conception was valuable, and John the Baptist jumped for joy in the womb when the pregnant Mary approached Elizabeth. These were lives to be valued, and therefore the church has ascribed value to unborn life. So there is evidence from the New Testament that most abortions are wrong.
And to people born of Jewish heritage, I am not going to tell them to disobey the Law, Jesus followers or not. I am not born of Jewish heritage, I was never under the Law by OT or NT standards.
That wasn't in order to become saved - saved by faith, remember? That was how they were to live when saved. Which is part of what is in the Law, not all of it.
No, I accounted for that already when I said that certain laws are for all humanity, and the Jews were given more laws because they were the chosen people. Which, oddly enough, is the same view that Orthodox Jews hold.
No, I don't. I assume they did know what they were talking about, and that my view aligns with theirs.
I do, and I believe that we can learn from all Scriptures. But not all Scriptures are marching orders for the church (i.e. Genesis 22, Exodus 22:18, Deuteronomy 20:16-18). We need to pay attention to who was commanded to do what, and who is judged for what. God gave many commands to the Jews, but the Gentiles were not judged for failing to live up to Jewish standards. God will judge a Jewish nation and a Gentile nation alike for unjust murder for instance, but there's no Biblical evidence that he judges Gentile nations for failing to uphold all of the Jewish laws.
Zero evidence because you are blind to it. Why did James state his reason for the "short-list" of the things in the law that was required for gentiles to be saved was that Moses is preached in the synagogues on every Sabbath. If the law no longer applies at you believe, why even bother to listen to law of Moses preached? You ignore this verse in order to maintain your belief.
You are also free to ignore Rom 3:31 which states that by faith the law is not voided but is instead established.
Yeah I seem to remember faith. You however seem to forget that if a person breaks one point of the law he break all of it. You also conveniently forget that the gentiles were only given part of the law to be saved so as to not otherwise lay too great a burden on them.
Where does Scripture state that the law is for Jews only. I don't recall such. Opinion without scripture is unconvincing.
Really? How so? Explain yourself. That should be interesting.
Really? 2 Tim 3:16 which is written to Christians states ALL SCRIPTURE (in the OT - Not the NT) is profitable for DOCTRINE...and for TRAINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS. Apparently you don't believe 2 Tim 3:16 after all.
Which your interpretation effectively destroys by requiring them to do everything in it, if they want to live as good Christians.
I told you, I don't ignore it. I believe it is very important for Christians of Jewish heritage and backgrounds. I'm not one of them.
Oh no, as I said I believe it. If you deny that not all of Scripture is marching orders for Christians then, how many occultists have you killed? If you haven't, why haven't you? I haven't because I was not given that command, and the church in Acts recognized that they weren't given that command, otherwise they would have done it. Instead of forming death squads, they preached to and exorcised occultists while still allowing them to live (Acts 8:9-25, Acts 16:16-19, Acts 19:17-22). Of course, they also went with the Apostles and grew to accept the Gentile believers without requiring them to obey the whole Law.
Again, not required for salvation, but rather instructions for life. There's plenty that Gentiles can learn about God and about the nature of man from the Old Testament, even though they're not required to obey all of the Law. This is where 2 Tim 3:16 comes in.
Exodus 20:2, he didn't bring me or my ancestors out of Egypt. This is also how religious Jewish teachers interpret it. If you don't know that, you don't understand the Law.
Already have.
Isn't that what living a holy life entails? We all fail as no one is without sin. However that does not mean that we shouldn't strive to practice righteousness as the scriptures command and repent of sin when we fail. Again you overlook many verses to cling to your view.
You do ignore it. You claim to have faith don't you? Yet you claim that your faith annuls the law in direct contradiction to Rom 3:31 which states that the law is establish by faith. Paul wrote this epistle to the saints in Rome - whether they be Jewish or gentile believers so to somehow exclude yourself is preposterous.
You fail to account for the simple fact that we don't live in a theocracy. Parts of the law are impossible to keep now such as temple sacrifices since there is no temple. So your occultist argument is a straw man argument - very weak.
James' decision regarding the will of the council was precipitated by the claim of some that circumcision was a necessary requirement in order to become saved. Thus it was thought to be required for salvation. Thus the context is salvation; not "instructions for life."
Nope you don't understand the law. The law doesn't save anyone but instead it serves as a tutor as to what sin is and leads one to faith by repenting of one's sins. Rom 3:20 states that by the law is knowledge of sin. Since you believe the law no longer applies, then you must believe that sin no longer applies as without the law there is no knowledge of sin. And since sin no longer exists there can be no repentance. And without repentance there is no saving faith. As you can see, you misconceptions of what the law is has led you to an untenable conclusion.
Only in your own mind.
I acknowledge the verses. I simply reject the assumption you make when you read them, that Gentiles are held to Jewish standards in order to live holy lives because it isn't supported in either the OT or NT.
Paul didn't tell the Gentiles to live like Jews. He told Jews how to relate to the law, but he never told Gentiles to live under it. He wrote Galatians as a response to Gentiles who were beginning to.
OK, so you haven't obeyed that command. Which is a good thing for the record, but do you get any value out of Exodus 22:18 even though you can't obey it?
When James said that, it was established already that the Gentiles they were going to write to were already saved by faith in Jesus, just like the Jews are. So no, those are not salvation requirements, but instructions for life.
I believe I do, since not only does the New Testament harmonize with what I have been saying, but Jewish teachers who study and teach the law for a living take that same stance.
It doesn't say that knowledge of sin only comes via the law. And verse 19 says that the law only applies to people under it. It is a tutor, though - Galatians 3:24-26 says that it is a tutor to lead us to Christ, but since we have Christ, we no longer are under that tutor.
No, I don't believe any of that stuff.
You have merely offered your opinion. You acknowledge the verse but you choose not to believe it in order to cling to your view. Scripture is not bound to uphold your view; rather it is the other way around. So when Paul wrote in Rom 3:31 that the law is not voided by faith but is instead established by faith, you choose to believe the exact opposite as you claim the law is voided by faith. You can believe whatever you want. I prefer to believe the scripture.
You fail to note that Paul made no distinction between Jew and Gentile. Where did you get such an idea?
You fail to understand that the law was given to distinguish good from evil. Without the guidance of the law what constitutes as sin would not be possible. That is why the law is referred to as our tutor/guardian. Thus without the law, witchcraft would be okay. Do you believe witchcraft is okay to practice? How do you know that? It's because God's law says it's not okay to the point that whoever practices it should be put to death. Jesus' atonement did not void the law but exceeded it. In our society, one is not put to death because one is a witch. Instead the Christian's response is to love others by pointing out to them that witchcraft is wrong and offer them the gospel of salvation by repenting of their sin, thus obtaining God's forgiveness.
Again you merely offer you unsubstantiated opinion without scripture reference. Where doe it say that?? I already told you that that the whole discussion of the council in Acts 15 was started by certain men who claimed that unless one is circumcised, one cannot be saved in v.1. - NOT ALREADY SAVED. Again you ignore scripture in order to cling to your view.
I really don't care what others think. I only care what the scriptures state. Your choice to believe other people.
So where else does knowledge of sin come from if not for the law?? Any guesses?
Since you don't believe any of that stuff then why continue this discussion? You are free not to believe it but your reasons don't jive with Scripture.
No, my claim is that Gentiles outside of Israel never were under the law, and that the OT and NT support this.
No, I didn't. There is no distinction in terms of justification. As for being under the law, becoming Christians does not bring us under it.
No, we still have our consciences and the Noahide law for that.
It's because it's condemned in the New Testament to the general church. Many other OT commands are not.
And would this be different in another society, in your opinion?
It's in Acts 15:6-18. They're talking about Gentiles who had already been saved.
Well, people other than you. Your interpretation is just your interpretation. My interpretation is consistent with the Scriptures and with time-honored scholarship.
I never claimed that it vanished, just that I'm not under it. You really should give up on trying to put words in my mouth.
It doesn't indicate that everyone is under the law of Moses. God gave a law to all mankind before Sinai, and gave more law to the Jews because they're the chosen people at Sinai.
What I said I didn't believe is the assumptions you made about my beliefs - that sin no longer applies, or that repentance isn't needed. Which means I believe that sin applies, and that repentance is needed. Which very much does jive with Scripture.
Your claim is baseless. FYI Rom 3:31 is written to all the saints in Rome (Rom 1:7) which includes gentile Christians living in Rome. Why don't you try understanding the text and who it was written to before giving your uniformed opinion?
I just quoted 1 Cor 12:13 and Acts 15:9 which you blatantly ignore. Why is that?
You have the bad habit of giving your opinion unbacked by Scripture. I'll give mine backed by Scripture. Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Jesus never contradicted the law. If he did, he would have been a sinner. Jesus always followed the law and the great commission commands Christians to go out and teach others what he commanded us to do. You are teaching the opposite of what Jesus taught.
Huh?
Show me the evidence - not your mere opinion. I gave you mine. Some men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom prescribed by Moses, you cannot be saved!"
Believe as you wish. Do you ever notice that most of the the time you give your opinion without any scripture to back it up??
Again lack of scripture to back you up? Why is that??
So...although you have a mouth and you belong to the whole world, you're still exempt from the law. Rom 2:13 states those (including you and me) who do the law will be justified. The epistle to the Romans includes gentile believers.
Of course they are. Big problem is you forgot to include the part that Rom 3:20 declares that KNOWLEDGE OF SIN is obtained via the law. Again, your opinion without scripture is worthless.
You only think so because you have rejected the verses and explanations that I have given.
I know the verses. And I know they are not to be applied the way you are applying them.
Genesis 9:6 isn't the Mosaic law. That was introduced hundreds of years later.
No, I'm not. Jesus never taught that Gentiles are to become Jews.
If it were not illegal to kill occultists in the society in which you lived, would you kill them? If not, why not?
No, I don't. I gave the Scriptures, and you rejected them.
For those that are under the law. But I'm not going to take that all the way into the heresy that suggests that Jews can be saved apart from Christ. Since Gentiles are not under the law, as the verses I have previously shared teach, it's not an insistence for them to follow the law.
I belong to Christ, not the world. He redeemed me without putting me under the Mosaic law, same as every Gentile he redeemed. The epistle to the Galatians is very clear on that.
