Is this a cognitive bias and does it have a name?

[pitabread]

Once again, you cannot select new information into existence, & replication is replication- not new information.

Then you have to provide a definition of information as it applies to DNA and demonstrate that replication and modification are insufficient to give rise to information in DNA.

Merely asserting this is not enough. You have to demonstrate it. Can you do that?*

No way around it, all the creative heavy lifting is left to pure blind chance, that's mathematically problematic

No it isn't.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Okay, but how does this explicitly apply to DNA? Merely asserting that DNA contains "specified information" isn't enough. You have to demonstrate this.

How do you measure the "specified information" in DNA? How do you quantify it? Can you quantify it?

You don't believe that the development of your body was described, at least in part, by information in your DNA?

We can quantify it the same way as any digital information, which for our DNA is about 725 Mb, about the same as an old optical laser disc?

We can debate how much is 'Junk' and how much is 'specified' but the exact amount does not refute the fact that obviously a lot of specified information is present- or we would not be having this discussion!

 

[Speedwell]

? look in the mirror!

I see the contingent by-product of a stochastic process.

I take your point but selection by 'fitness function' is a different thing.

You'll have to explain that one. Different from what?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

The presence of text in a known written language.

Okay, so it was recognizable human language, but is that really the definitive objective measure- how about SETI's 'WOW' signal- inconclusive yes- but what lead anyone to suspect intelligence there? known written language? or something else?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I see the contingent by-product of a stochastic process.

described in part by the specified information in your DNA, is it not?

You'll have to explain that one. Different from what?

a fitness function like natural selection is a selection process, right? - it selects, filters from a set of pre-existing options- rather than bringing anything into existence itself

similarly a best selling book will outlast unpopular ones to be reproduced in greater numbers, this does nothing to explain the creation of either

 

[pitabread]

You don't believe that the development of your body was described, at least in part, by information in your DNA?

I never said any of that. I'm asking you to provide a definition of "specified information" as it pertains to DNA.

We can quantify it the same way as any digital information, which for our DNA is about 725 Mb, about the same as an old optical laser disc?

What are you quantifying exactly? How did you calculate that amount? What is the unit of measure?

We can debate how much is 'Junk' and how much is 'specified' but the exact amount does not refute the fact that obviously a lot of specified information is present- or we would not be having this discussion!

We're not debating "junk" though; or at least, I'm not.

I'm just asking you to provide a definition of "specified information" as it pertains to DNA.

 

[Speedwell]

Okay, so it was recognizable human language, but is that really the definitive objective measure-

Nothing is ever definitive. The presence of intelligent design is an unfalsifiable proposition. It can sometime be detected, but not always, and it can never be ruled out. Intelligent design can sometime be detected by evidence of intentional manufacture. Absent that, it is impossible to tell.

The presence of design how about SETI's 'WOW' signal- inconclusive yes- but what lead anyone to suspect intelligence there? known written language? or something else?

What SETI is looking for is not a message, but a narrow-band microwave signal of a kind not known to be produced by natural processes. Whether there is actually an encoded message is a different story.

 

[Speedwell]

described in part by the specified information in your DNA, is it not?

It is produced by an orderly transform of information in DNA.

a fitness function like natural selection is a selection process, right? - it selects, filters from a set of pre-existing options- rather than bringing anything into existence itself

similarly a best selling book will outlast unpopular ones to be reproduced in greater numbers, this does nothing to explain the creation of either

But the book itself does not change in response to sales volume, so it's a poor analogy.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I never said any of that. I'm asking you to provide a definition of "specified information" as it pertains to DNA.

same definition as any specified information, information which specifies something
v Shannon information which does not

pretty cut and dry

you don't think your eye color is specified anywhere in your DNA?

What are you quantifying exactly? How did you calculate that amount? What is the unit of measure?

again, since DNA is digital information, it can absolutely be quantified in exactly the same way as any other digital information, breaking it down to single 'bits'- 725 Mb worth to be 'fairly' precise

this is represented in electronic voltages in computers, physical pits on an optical disc, chemistry/ nucleotides in DNA, and by wooden blocks on an abacus if you like, the medium the information is carried on does not change the nature of the information itself.

In this case of course DNA is quaternary v binary, base 4 v base 2- but still represented in single 'bits' of information v an analogue information system

We're not debating "junk" though; or at least, I'm not.

well it does come into this, because we don't know exactly how much of that 725 Mb does actually specify anything, just that a lot of it clearly does..

it would be a bit like an alien examining a digital DVD they could play, and trying to figure out which'pits' on the disc represented Brad- not a simple task, but they would easily determine that it was specified somehow

 

[Guy Threepwood]

It is produced by an orderly transform of information in DNA.



But the book itself does not change in response to sales volume, so it's a poor analogy.

my point exactly!

selection creates nothing, it can only remove options, not increase them

it requires intelligence to change the book in any meaningful way

 

[pitabread]

same definition as any specified information, information which specifies something

Repeating the name of terms you are trying to define is not a definition.

again, since DNA is digital information, it can absolutely be quantified in exactly the same way as any other digital information, breaking it down to single 'bits'- 725 Mb worth to be 'fairly' precise

this is represented in electronic voltages in computers, physical pits on an optical disc, chemistry/ nucleotides in DNA, and by wooden blocks on an abacus if you like, the medium the information is carried on does not change the nature of the information itself.

In this case of course DNA is quaternary v binary, base 4 v base 2- but still represented in single 'bits' of information v an analogue information system

So you are saying that information in DNA can be represented by "bits" that refer to nucleotides.

Do I have that correct?

well it does come into this, because we don't know exactly how much of that 725 Mb does actually specify anything, just that a lot of it clearly does..

I'm confused. You are stating that DNA contains 725 Mb of information. But previously you are stating that DNA contains "specified information".

So which is it? Does the 725 Mb of information represent specified information or doesn't it?

If it doesn't, then you're back to square one: you need to provide a definition of specified information as it pertains to DNA.

 

[Ophiolite]

Okay, so it was recognizable human language, but is that really the definitive objective measure- how about SETI's 'WOW' signal- inconclusive yes- but what lead anyone to suspect intelligence there? known written language? or something else?

Switching to another example is tacit acknowledgement that your Rosetta Stone example was invalid. Will you now do so explicitly?

 

[Speedwell]

same definition as any specified information, information which specifies something
v Shannon information which does not

pretty cut and dry

you don't think your eye color is specified anywhere in your DNA?



again, since DNA is digital information, it can absolutely be quantified in exactly the same way as any other digital information, breaking it down to single 'bits'- 725 Mb worth to be 'fairly' precise

this is represented in electronic voltages in computers, physical pits on an optical disc, chemistry/ nucleotides in DNA, and by wooden blocks on an abacus if you like, the medium the information is carried on does not change the nature of the information itself.

In this case of course DNA is quaternary v binary, base 4 v base 2- but still represented in single 'bits' of information v an analogue information system




well it does come into this, because we don't know exactly how much of that 725 Mb does actually specify anything, just that a lot of it clearly does..

it would be a bit like an alien examining a digital DVD they could play, and trying to figure out which'pits' on the disc represented Brad- not a simple task, but they would easily determine that it was specified somehow

Seen in that light, all information specifies something.

 

[Speedwell]

my point exactly!

selection creates nothing, it can only remove options, not increase them

It preserves options in a way which leads it the whole species adopting them.

it requires intelligence to change the book in any meaningful way

Ah, "meaningful." Another term undefined in this context. I think your teleology is showing.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Repeating the name of terms you are trying to define is not a definition.



So you are saying that information in DNA can be represented by "bits" that refer to nucleotides.

Do I have that correct?



I'm confused. You are stating that DNA contains 725 Mb of information. But previously you are stating that DNA contains "specified information".

So which is it? Does the 725 Mb of information represent specified information or doesn't it?

If it doesn't, then you're back to square one: you need to provide a definition of specified information as it pertains to DNA.

Yes you are correct, DNA is very much a digital code, base 4, quaternary, represented by individual bits of information- to which we assign the identifiers A C G & T

None of this is controversial

the entire genome represents about 715-725 Mb of these bits

Mb stands for megabytes, or 1024 kilobytes
a kilobyte is 1024 bits



725 Mb of digital data can be anything, noise or specified information- the type of information represented by the bits does not change the number of bits if you see what I mean.

Again, specified information is information that specifies something- e.g. eye color-
the DNA system reads this digital info and uses it to build organs accordingly

A large part of these 725 Mb of bits DO represent specified information, this we know because altering it will produce visible effects on development.


So again, we can't say exactly how much is specified and how much is noise- but we know for sure that:
a lot of specified information does exist in DNA- again that's not a controversial observation

 

[Guy Threepwood]

It preserves options in a way which leads it the whole species adopting them.


Ah, "meaningful." Another term undefined in this context. I think your teleology is showing.

Again, same definition as in any common context

meaningful: having meaning.

a monkey at a typewriter, i.e. random input, typing the same number of characters, will not create a meaningful book.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Seen in that light, all information specifies something.

No, see Shannon information

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes you are correct, DNA is very much a digital code, base 4, quaternary, represented by individual bits of information- to which we assign the identifiers A C G & T

None of this is controversial

the entire genome represents about 715-725 Mb of these bits

Mb stands for megabytes, or 1024 kilobytes
a kilobyte is 1024 bits



725 Mb of digital data can be anything, noise or specified information- the type of information represented by the bits does not change the number of bits if you see what I mean.

Again, specified information is information that specifies something- e.g. eye color-
the DNA system reads this digital info and uses it to build organs accordingly

A large part of these 725 Mb of bits DO represent specified information, this we know because altering it will produce visible effects on development.


So again, we can't say exactly how much is specified and how much is noise- but we know for sure that:
a lot of specified information does exist in DNA- again that's not a controversial observation

Your own definition refutes your argument. By your definition "specified information" can arise naturally .

 

[Guy Threepwood]

It preserves options in a way which leads it the whole species adopting them.

Of course

a superior- or better adapted design for it's environment, will tend to outperform inferior ones and hence be reproduced in larger numbers.

Nobody takes any issue with this.

It is precisely the reason why we see more Ford Mustangs on the road today than Ford Pintos.

 

[Speedwell]

Again, same definition as in any common context

meaningful: having meaning.

a monkey at a typewriter, i.e. random input, typing the same number of characters, will not create a meaningful book.

How is "meaning" to be decided? Once again, you have not provided a useful working definition.