Is this a cognitive bias and does it have a name?

[Guy Threepwood]

Input is a loaded term. New traits need to arise.

and new traits require new information, and new information requires..?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Obviously it requires added input, provided by mutations which are then sifted by various processes, amongst which Natural Selection seems generally to be dominant.

Okay, so it fails our simpler definitive 'no God required' test.

We need added input of new information, which according to ToE is random error.

Can added input from random error achieve the same definitive conclusion as the test which requires none?

Is there a test we can devise to demonstrate this?

So now the challenge is on the believer in Darwinian evolution, devise that test.

 

[Subduction Zone]

and new traits require new information, and new information requires..?

Variation and natural selection working together.

 

[Speedwell]

Okay, so it fails our simpler definitive 'no God required' test.

We need added input of new information, which according to ToE is random error.

Of course. A random signal contain the maximum amount of information. It's basic Information Theory.

Wayback Machine

 

[Ophiolite]

Okay, so it fails our simpler definitive 'no God required' test.

We need added input of new information, which according to ToE is random error.

Can added input from random error achieve the same definitive conclusion as the test which requires none?

So, for a form of input we have observed countless times (mutations) you would substitute an input for which we have no substantive evidence (God, or some undefined Intelligent Agency).

When you have a serious argument send me a pm.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Variation and natural selection working together.

No, you cannot select new information into existence, you can only select existing information

so that question again; new information requires?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Of course. A random signal contain the maximum amount of information. It's basic Information Theory.

Wayback Machine

That's Shannon information, not specified information

DNA is specified information

The difference would be a book the length of War & Peace full of random characters
and one telling the story of War & Peace.

Of course you can make a sentence out of random characters, see Dawkins Weasel program,
if, as he demonstrates, you specify the result from the get-go.

Similarly with DNA/ life

 

[Guy Threepwood]

So, for a form of input we have observed countless times (mutations) you would substitute an input for which we have no substantive evidence (God, or some undefined Intelligent Agency).

When you have a serious argument send me a pm.

Ask yourself this:

What is the substantive evidence that the Rosetta Stone was not the result of random mutation from natural erosion of the stone, but required an intelligence agency?

 

[Ophiolite]

Ask yourself this:

What is the substantive evidence that the Rosetta Stone was not the result of random mutation from natural erosion of the stone, but required an intelligence agency?

The extensive existence, in multiple mediums, of the three scripts found on the stone, with clear evidence of such script being produced by intelligent agencies.

 

[pitabread]

so that question again; new information requires?

Modifications to DNA sequences via replication, variation, and selection.

What, were you expecting something else?

 

[pitabread]

DNA is specified information

How do you define "specified information" as it applies directly to DNA? How do you quantify it? What is the unit of measure?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Modifications to DNA sequences via replication, variation, and selection.

What, were you expecting something else?

Once again, you cannot select new information into existence, & replication is replication- not new information.

that leaves 'variation' which according to ToE originates in random mutation-

No way around it, all the creative heavy lifting is left to pure blind chance, that's mathematically problematic

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, you cannot select new information into existence, you can only select existing information

so that question again; new information requires?

You forgot variation. Come on! One short sentence and you forgot half of it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Once again, you cannot select new information into existence, & replication is replication- not new information.

that leaves 'variation' which according to ToE originates in random mutation-

No way around it, all the creative heavy lifting is left to pure blind chance, that's mathematically problematic

No, variation does not make evolution random. It is an error to think of only small numbers. With large numbers the odds of "winners" showing up as new traits becomes a numerical certainty. Populations tend to run in the millions for species. Each new birth can have on the order of one hundred mutations. That is one hundred million chances to hit on a positive mutation in just one generation. What makes you think that new traits cannot arise under those circumstances?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ask yourself this:

What is the substantive evidence that the Rosetta Stone was not the result of random mutation from natural erosion of the stone, but required an intelligence agency?

Your analogies need some work.

 

[Speedwell]

That's Shannon information, not specified information

Correct.

DNA is specified information

Which is?

The difference would be a book the length of War & Peace full of random characters
and one telling the story of War & Peace.

The difference being that one book has an encoded message and the other does not. If DNA has an encoded message, why don't you decrypt it and tell us what it is?

Of course you can make a sentence out of random characters, see Dawkins Weasel program,
if, as he demonstrates, you specify the result from the get-go.

Similarly with DNA/ life

Using that analogy, the "specified result" of evolution is increased fitness in the local environment of the next generation. Nothing more. Increased complexity, increased diversity are merely a by-products.

 

[Speedwell]

Ask yourself this:

What is the substantive evidence that the Rosetta Stone was not the result of random mutation from natural erosion of the stone, but required an intelligence agency?

The presence of text in a known written language.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

How do you define "specified information" as it applies directly to DNA? How do you quantify it? What is the unit of measure?

specified information specifies something beyond itself- i.e. this is not about 'complexity' or 'volume' of info, but about what the info specifies.

e.g. War & Peace v pages of random characters- we only know one source for such a volume of specified information, and it ain't random variation

DNA represents a highly organized hierarchical, digital, specified information system

It's not that we don't know how such things can come into existence, we do-
we just don't know of natural mechanisms being able to achieve them - far less making that the 'default assumption'!

 

[pitabread]

specified information specifies something beyond itself- i.e. this is not about 'complexity' or 'volume' of info, but about what the info specifies.

Okay, but how does this explicitly apply to DNA? Merely asserting that DNA contains "specified information" isn't enough. You have to demonstrate this.

How do you measure the "specified information" in DNA? How do you quantify it? Can you quantify it?

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Correct.

The difference being that one book has an encoded message and the other does not. If DNA has an encoded message, why don't you decrypt it and tell us what it is?

? look in the mirror!

Using that analogy, the "specified result" of evolution is increased fitness in the local environment of the next generation. Nothing more. Increased complexity, increased diversity are merely a by-products.

I take your point but selection by 'fitness function' is a different thing

War & Peace may sell more copies than 'raising goats for fun and profit'- or maybe not!?

but this does not explain the creation of the novel information in either