The seven kings of Revelation 17:10

[Davy]

He did say that the vast majority of mankind will be cast into the lake, but as to the who- that is for God alone to know. We are forbidden to make that judgment. At most we can only warn one of their fate if they die in their unbelief. But whether they will accept Christ sometime down the road we do not know.

Oh, I never denied there will be many that will go into the future lake of fire. That never was my point.

My point was, and still is, AT PRESENT we do not know who all born in the flesh will perish in that future lake of fire. We cannot even be sure Judas is, simply because the Judgment that will cast souls into that future lake of fire has not... happened... yet. And this is one of the main reasons we are not to judge others to condemnation to the lake of fire. We can warn that one may be in danger, but never say they are going, because only our Lord Jesus has that Authority.

But for Satan and his angels, their condemnation is already certain, with that fire specifically prepared for them.

This is why and how we know the beast and false prophet of Revelation 19:20 is not about flesh men, but about roles the coming Antichrist (dragon) will play.

 

[Davy]

The Antichrist can never be a king of Israel! Why? Because he will never be Jewish according to the Word of God!

First he is satans physical son.

Gen. 3:15 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
We know that the seed of the woman is Jesus. The seed of the serpent is Satan's son, the antichrist or counterfeit Christ! Both seeds are singular!

One of the greatest errors in interpretation of the identity of the coming Antichrist at the end, is with thinking it has to be a flesh man.

One of the greatest revelations our Lord Jesus gave us for the end in His Book of Revelation, is that Satan himself, in person, here on earth in plain sight, is who the coming Antichrist and pseudo-Christ will be, in Jerusalem.

1. in Revelation 12:3-4, we are shown the 'dragon' rebelled against God in the beginning using a beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, but only SEVEN crowns. And he drew a third of the angels ("stars") to earth with him.

2. in Revelation 13:1, we are shown about a beast system that has ten horns, seven heads, but TEN crowns. This is the final one at the end of this world, because Jesus is shown coming with His army to defeat it in His Revelation.

3. in that same Revelation 13 chapter, we are shown the whole world will worship the "dragon". In Rev.12:7-9 we were shown the "dragon" is another one of Satan's titles, and that he will be cast out of Heaven down to earth, with his angels, and next verses there pointing to events on the 5th Seal of Rev.6, showing it is about the coming tribulation time.

4. in Revelation 13:11 forward, we are shown how the 2nd beast, the "another beast", is to have two horns LIKE a lamb (i.e., like The Lamb Jesus), but will speak as a dragon. That is written as a huge hint, because it means Satan coming to play Christ, plain and simple. With Revelation 13:4-8 our Lord Jesus actually spilled the beans, telling us directly who it is the whole world will worship, i.e., the "dragon" (a title for Satan himself).

5. in Matthew 24:23-26, our Lord Jesus showed us the coming false one will be a pseudo-Christ with the power to work great signs and wonders on earth that IF possible, would deceive even His very elect. That means MIRACLES on a level that our Lord Jesus Himself would work. In Revelation 13:12 forward that 2nd beast is also to work those signs and wonders and miracles. In 2 Thessalonians 2:4-8 that "man of sin" also is to work those signs and lying wonders to deceive, with the deceived being subject to that "strong delusion". These Bible evidences all point to Satan himself as the coming Antichrist for the end of this world.

6. per the parable in Ezekiel 31, Satan was originally exalted in God's Garden of Eden. God uses symbolic metaphors there of Satan's original high stature, until he fell. God said "all great nations" were under Satan's shadow, a parable that is hinted at again with the parable of the bramble in Judges 9. That was when Satan's beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 was, with the ten horns, seven heads, and only seven crowns. It points to how he setup his own kingdom here on earth once before, prior to Adam and Eve in God's Garden.

 

[Douggg]

The Antichrist can never be a king of Israel! Why? Because he will never be Jewish according to the Word of God!

The are millions of Jews that are of different countries than Israel.

Daniel 9:26-27, indicates that he will not be from China, Japan, Australia, Brazil, Argentina, etc. He will be from Europe.

We know that the seed of the woman is Jesus. The seed of the serpent is Satan's son, the antichrist or counterfeit Christ! Both seeds are singular!

Jesus's mother was not Eve. Jesus was born to Mary, a Jew.

Where in the bible are you finding that the Antichrist will claim to be a counterfeit, claiming to be the personage of Jesus ?

And created an entire scenario around it. Now superficially this verse MIGHT POSSIBLY SUGGEST that the Antichrist (against Christ not another Christ) COULD be Jewish, using a verse that MIGHT POSSIBLY SUGGEST AND COULD and make it a reality when the rest of the Scripture defining the ethnicity of antichrist is different is not what a careful learner (mathetes/disciple) of Jesus does.

No, I gave you additional verses which it says right in the text "Christ the King" of Israel. John 5:43, indicates part of the meaning of the prefix "Anti" - i.e. instead of. The other part is "against". Which it is common knowledge that Jews (Judaism) are against the belief that Jesus is the rightful king of Israel.

The orthodox /religious Jews would never anoint as king anyone who does not come in the name of Yahweh. They may hail him a gentile hero as they have done Trump (naming a city after him and planting a tree on the avenue of the righteous of the nations) but they would never anoint as King one who is not devoted to Yahweh!

The Jews as a collective body do not anoint the person the king of Israel, but by the false prophet. All of (united) Israel's kings were anointed king by a prophet. Saul and David by Samuel; Solomon by Nathan.

 

[Douggg]

I understood what you said alright, but you cannot claim that, because the whole idea of the word Antichrist is about his coming to put himself 'in place of' Christ.

in place of Christ - the King of Israel. In place of Jesus - the rightful King of Israel.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

That chart is way... too confusing for me to read, and I'm being honest. You should be able to make a linear chart and place events in a column and rows, as that is the best way to present things coming to pass one after the other.

Davy, I just asked you to look at my chart to see if there was any reference to Daniel 11 on it. You had accused me of sole sourcing Daniel 11 as the basis for my end times view - falsely.

A straight line horizontal timeline is inadequate to present the end times critical path. The critical path on my chart is the red line, beginning in the upper left and ending in the lower right.

If you use Daniel 9, then you have to use Daniel 8, 11 & 12 also, which Daniel 11 is where the "abomination of desolation" event is specifically defined, and by whom. Daniel 11 further explains the events of the Daniel 9:27 "one week". Based on your chart I'm sure your teachers have used that to teach what you believe about the Antichrist from the Book of Daniel.

Davy, you are making all sorts of presumptions - that I am a product of being taught by a select group of prophecy teachers, repeating their line. No, I am not. And no seminary training, either.

Davy, you may be wondering how I know all this stuff. Well, it is a long story spanning 50 years, from my early 20's to my present age of 71. Let's just say, God is the One who has taught me.

-

 

[Davy]

in place of Christ - the King of Israel. In place of Jesus - the rightful King of Israel.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.


Davy, I just asked you to look at my chart to see if there was any reference to Daniel 11 on it. You had accused me of sole sourcing Daniel 11 as the basis for my end times view - falsely.

Well, the Daniel 11 chapter is a parallel to the Daniel 9:27 verse, which I could have pointed to instead. The reason I mentioned the Daniel 11 chapter is because they both go together, some of the elements on your chart does point to it also, afterall, Daniel 11 is where the "abomination of desolation" event is defined and especially was where Jesus was pointing to in the Book of Daniel. So, are you trying to tell me your chart doesn't deal with the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel 11?

A straight line horizontal timeline is inadequate to present the end times critical path. The critical path on my chart is the red line, beginning in the upper left and ending in the lower right.

I don't think it's that hard at all. I've done it. You don't need media objects to do it with either.

Davy, you are making all sorts of presumptions - that I am a product of being taught by a select group of prophecy teachers, repeating their line. No, I am not. And no seminary training, either.

Well, the idea of the Church being raptured out prior to the time of "great tribulation" (i.e., the latter half of Daniel's "one week"), is actually a doctrine of men, a pre-trib rapture. Doesn't matter if one believes in a rapture prior to the 7 years or just prior to the AOD, it's still a pre-trib rapture idea, and it is nowhere written in God's Word.

Davy, you may be wondering how I know all this stuff. Well, it is a long story spanning 50 years, from my early 20's to my present age of 71. Let's just say, God is the One who has taught me.
-

My Lord Jesus called me when I turned 40, but I've been a believer all my life. And I have stayed in His Word by His urge of The Holy Spirit, while learning about all the seminary doctrines and basically un-Biblical junk that brethren get deceived with and pass on unawares to innocent babes in Christ. Sorry then, old age just is not proof of accuracy in God's Word. Proof is with staying with what is written, even when speculating about a prophecy yet to come to pass.

 

[nolidad]

Titus wasn't the Antichrist at all.

The sea beast of Revelation 13 is the Antichrist... NERO.

The sea is sometimes symbolic of the Gentiles. The trick is to identify who they mean by Gentiles... It may be the savage beasts that ravaged the countryside, destroyed food stores and tried to incite the Jews to fight the Romans.

Sorry but the beast of REv. 13 is also the beast of Daniel and the Statue of Daniel.

Nero did not die and rise from the dead.
Nero did not have a false prophet.
Nero did not have a statue that came alive.
Nero did not institute a global mark
There was no angel warning against a Neronian mark
Nero did not conquer three kings.
Nero did not rule the world, or even the known world
Nero did not make war against a returning Jesus Christ.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Nero was a vicious cruel tyrannical antichrist-but he was not THE Antichrist.

 

[nolidad]

Whoops! Yes the coming Antichrist can, and will be crowned a king over Israel (though a fake king). And the orthodox unbelieving Jews will regard him as their Messiah. Here is the reason...

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

Those 23 thru 26 verses are about singular false-Christ.

The Greek word for "false Christs" in verse 24 is pseudochristos, from 2 Greek words, pseudo (false) and Christos (Christ, singular). I think the KJV translators didn't understand our Lord's meaning there, even though they kept the tense as singular in His warning of the 23rd and 26th verse about not being deceived into belief on a singular false-Christ others say has come. I agree with Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, for he translated pseudochristos to 'a spurious Messiah' - (Strong's no. 5580).

By what Jesus warned of there, and with speaking of that pseudo-Christ coming to work those great signs and wonders that would almost deceive even His very elect, that is showing that the coming Antichrist will claim to be The Christ - Messiah.

A gentile can never be a Jewish king. The Antichrist is the physical son of Satan and a gentile woman as Dan. 9 shows (He is a ruler of the people that will destroy the sanctuary)

YOu may think what you wish about the KJV translators- but 23-26 are about false christs plural! Many shall and have already arisen, both Jewish and gentile!

Gentiles:

Koresh, Jim JOnes, Sun Yung Moon, Father Divine et. al. spurious means the same as false!

 

[nolidad]

One of the greatest errors in interpretation of the identity of the coming Antichrist at the end, is with thinking it has to be a flesh man.

One of the greatest revelations our Lord Jesus gave us for the end in His Book of Revelation, is that Satan himself, in person, here on earth in plain sight, is who the coming Antichrist and pseudo-Christ will be, in Jerusalem.

This is incorrect!

REv. 13: 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Power there is exuosia which is authority, which means Satan gives his son authority . The dragon, Anrtichrist and false prophet are the counterfeit trinity. Satans' son receives from His father all authority over the earth which Satan offered Jesus in the wilderness and which Jesus refused!

The Dragon and beast are different entities!

 

[Davy]

A gentile can never be a Jewish king. The Antichrist is the physical son of Satan and a gentile woman as Dan. 9 shows (He is a ruler of the people that will destroy the sanctuary)

The Daniel 11 Scripture reveals Antichrist will be of the Jewish people. Those of Matthew 24:23-26 could not claim Christ is here, or there, if he were not born of the house of David.

Dan 11:37
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
KJV

YOu may think what you wish about the KJV translators- but 23-26 are about false christs plural! Many shall and have already arisen, both Jewish and gentile!

Gentiles:

Koresh, Jim JOnes, Sun Yung Moon, Father Divine et. al. spurious means the same as false!

The Matthew 24:5 verse is about the idea of "many antichrists" that John said are already at work. Those are the ones you're talking about, even those of today who claim to be our Lord Jesus. But the Matthew 24:23-26 section is about a singular "antichrist", the one John said the brethren had already heard shall come (that Jesus warned that is coming per John 14:30).

What's the difference between those two Matt.24 sections?

The latter, Matthew 24:23-26 is about the coming of a false one that will have POWER to work great signs and wonders that would almost... deceive even Christ's very elect. The former claimers are not shown with that ability to work that, which can also be seen with the many fakes of the past and of today. When the Antichrist of verses 23-26 shows up, the whole world... will be deceived by the miracles he is given to work, excepting Christ's elect; that is the subject about the 'dragon' too in Revelation 13:4-8.

 

[Davy]

This is incorrect!

REv. 13: 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Power there is exuosia which is authority, which means Satan gives his son authority . The dragon, Anrtichrist and false prophet are the counterfeit trinity. Satans' son receives from His father all authority over the earth which Satan offered Jesus in the wilderness and which Jesus refused!

The Dragon and beast are different entities!

There's TWO separate beast types given in Rev.13. The first one is a beast kingdom having ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns. That is the 'beast' the "dragon" gives power to.

Even in Revelation 13:11 we are given the hint of who that "another beast" (2nd beast) really is, because he will speak like a dragon (because he is the dragon, i.e., Satan).

The Satanic trinity idea is from men's doctrines. The beast and false prophet of Revelation 16 & 19 are simply ROLES the Antichrist will play. That "another beast", is the beast king, and a false prophet, and the dragon, all rolled into one entity. In contrast, our Lord Jesus is KING, and also a Prophet (per OT Deut.), and High Priest after the order of Melchizedek. When Jesus returns, those roles of the beast king and false prophet the dragon will play, will be over. This is why we are shown the beast and false prophet are then cast into the lake of fire, even before the final Judgment after Jesus' thousand years reign.

 

[Douggg]

So, are you trying to tell me your chart doesn't deal with the "abomination of desolation" event from Daniel 11?

Daniel 12:11-12, the end times abomination of desolation is in those verses.

That's what is annotated on my chart regarding the abomination of desolation.

 

[Davy]

Daniel 12:11-12, the end times abomination of desolation is in those verses.

That's what is annotated on my chart regarding the abomination of desolation.

I see "daily sacrifice stopped" with no verse reference.
I see "* Transgression of Desolation" and "*Abomination of Desolation" with no verse ref.
I see "(Daniel 12:11-12)" further below in connection with the 1335 days, etc.

I don't see a Scripture reference next to your 'daily sacrifice stopped', nor your TOD or AOD phrases.

The "transgression of desolation" phrase is from Daniel 8:13, and the "abomination of desolation" phrase is actually from Matthew 24:15, which its closet parallel in Daniel is the "abomination that maketh desolate" phrase in Daniel 11:31. So obviously, you're being kind of nit-picky with trying to disregard the Daniel 11:31 verse I've been pointing to all along.

 

[Douggg]

The "transgression of desolation" phrase is from Daniel 8:13, and the "abomination of desolation" phrase is actually from Matthew 24:15, which its closet parallel in Daniel is the "abomination that maketh desolate" phrase in Daniel 11:31. So obviously, you're being kind of nit-picky with trying to disregard the Daniel 11:31 verse I've been pointing to all along.

The Daniel 11:31 abomination of desolation is not end times. The Daniel 12:11-12 is end times. I don't disagree they both are associated with a statue image.

I updated my chart to address the other comments you made about what you saw missing on the chart.

 

[Douggg]

@Davy, you had commented on why not just make the chart on a horizontal line. The reason that can't be done is a matter of the space it would take to do it that way.

In a classroom setting with a 20 foot wide marking board - then a person could maybe do it with the horizontal line method. But to get all of the annotations and parallel events on the chart, it can't be on one horizontal line anyway.

If you follow the red critical path, the horizontal segments represent some time passing. For example, like between the Antichrist committing the ToD, there is a horizontal segment to when he gets killed - because we don't know how long it is between him sitting in the temple and God bringing strangers against him to kill him (in Ezekiel 28:1-10).

I'll admit the chart is busy. And at first it may seem confusing. But if a person just starts in the upper left corner and follows the red critical path, and reads the annotated reference passages (the ones they may not recall off hand, or with exactness), along the way to the lower right corner, then the chart will make sense.

 

[Davy]

Daniel 12:11-12, the end times abomination of desolation is in those verses.

That's what is annotated on my chart regarding the abomination of desolation.

Daniel 11 gives the main details of that event, tells us it's the "vile person" who causes it and the "league" that is made in Jerusalem.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 11 gives the main details of that event, tells us it's the "vile person" who causes it and the "league" that is made in Jerusalem.

Daniel 11:31 is now a historic event involving Antiochus IV.

Daniel 11:35 is the transition verse to the time of the end.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

 

[Davy]

The Daniel 11:31 abomination of desolation is not end times. The Daniel 12:11-12 is end times. I don't disagree they both are associated with a statue image.

I updated my chart to address the other comments you made about what you saw missing on the chart.

The Daniel 11 events of the "vile person" certainly is about the end times.

Some try to say that was fulfilled by Antiochus IV, but he only served as a 'blueprint' of those events. Around 165 B.C. Antiochus (called Epiphanes) took Jerusalem, went into the 2nd temple and sacrificed swine on the altar, then setup an idol abomination to Zeus on the altar. Thing is though, our Lord Jesus warned about that Dan.11:31 abomination that maketh desolate about 200 years after... Antiochus had been dead. That means look for the final Antichrist to fulfill that Dan.11:31 event in Jerusalem.

And your chart appears to push the doctrine of man called a Pre-trib Rapture, which is not written anywhere in God's Word. The time of Christ gathering His Church that is written is for after the tribulation, not during it nor before it.

 

[Davy]

@Davy, you had commented on why not just make the chart on a horizontal line. The reason that can't be done is a matter of the space it would take to do it that way.

In a classroom setting with a 20 foot wide marking board - then a person could maybe do it with the horizontal line method. But to get all of the annotations and parallel events on the chart, it can't be on one horizontal line anyway.

If you follow the red critical path, the horizontal segments represent some time passing. For example, like between the Antichrist committing the ToD, there is a horizontal segment to when he gets killed - because we don't know how long it is between him sitting in the temple and God bringing strangers against him to kill him (in Ezekiel 28:1-10).

I'll admit the chart is busy. And at first it may seem confusing. But if a person just starts in the upper left corner and follows the red critical path, and reads the annotated reference passages (the ones they may not recall off hand, or with exactness), along the way to the lower right corner, then the chart will make sense.

With a horizontal layout, it's just a matter of having more linear rows underneath each other. The timeline for the end as the Dan.9:27 "one week" is a 7 years period divided into 2 periods of 1260 days, and maybe the latter 1290 and 1335 on the end of that. That would be the header, with the division of the other periods underneath. Then each event underneath that in descending rows.

 

[Douggg]

With a horizontal layout, it's just a matter of having more linear rows underneath each other. The timeline for the end as the Dan.9:27 "one week" is a 7 years period divided into 2 periods of 1260 days, and maybe the latter 1290 and 1335 on the end of that. That would be the header, with the division of the other periods underneath. Then each event underneath that in descending rows.

Davy, it is not that simple. The 7 years can be divided in half to get 1260 days, yes. But the only 1260 days (in text of the bible) is tied to the testimony time of the two witnesses.

The other times frames of 42 months and the times, time, half times are actually a little less than 1260 days days - to take into account for the 3 1/2 days that the two witnesses bodies lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem, and the amount of earth time that passes as the war in the second heaven takes place.

Why don't you try to make a chart that has all of the information on my chart - but into the form of a horizontal layout, with multiple linear rows. And when you get through - you will find it is hard to determine the critical timeline path of events like on my chart.

On my chart, you get on that red line and stay on that red line all the way to Jesus's return. It will take you through the seven years, the critical events, just like you were seeing a vision.

 

[Davy]

Daniel 11:31 is now a historic event involving Antiochus IV.

Afraid not.

Dan 11:21
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
KJV

That's the same one of Daniel 8 that will use peace to destroy many. It represents the final Antichrist at the end of this world.


Dan 11:23
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
KJV

That is the covenant made of Daniel 9:27, which he breaks in the middle of the "one week'.


Dan 11:28
28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land.
KJV

In reality, he will be against the "holy covenant". That is put for the reinstituted practice of old covenant sacrifices at the end of this world by the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem. Even today, some ultra-orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have been practicing animal sacrifices for decades now. This reveals what that "league" in verse 23 is about, i.e, sacrifices and temple worship in Jerusalem again by orthodox Jews.


Dan 11:30-31
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
KJV

He will forsake the holy covenant, which is about his ending the daily sacrifices. And instead he will cause an idol abomination to be placed in the holy place instead for worship. That event is what Jesus showed in Matt.24 and Mark 13 that starts... the time of "great tribulation".


Dan 11:32-35
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
KJV

All of those above verses are for tribulation timing, and is about persecution of the saints in the last days. And those verses go with that time of the "vile person" who represents the coming Antichrist at the end of this world.