Genes

[pitabread]

DNA could never have happened by chance.

Except nobody thinks it happened "by chance". It happened by chemistry.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree. You're not open to discussing it, so really you have nothing to discuss with anyone. You're just here to make pointless assertions.

Whatever...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What do you mean 'from scratch'? Obviously they can't just materialize out of nothing (quantum probability notwithstanding).

Ah! But God is not limited by any of our laws of physics. God is God and creating something out of nothing is easy for Him.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The best I can understand is from nothing, or from junk dna.

God can create anything He pleases just by speaking it into being.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Only creationists make the claim of "from chance". Natural selection is the opposite of chance, that means that since natural selection plays a vital role in evolution it is not a chance event.

But that is not what the Bible says. It says that God, the greatest intelligence in all of eternity, created the universe and everything in it through His own design, and spoke it all into being, and wrote the complex genetic information into every single cell. There is a significant difference between an intelligent God creating out of nothing and something just coming into existence by itself out of chance. The odds of anything coming into existence by chance is 1:10 to the power of 1 billion.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Except nobody thinks it happened "by chance". It happened by chemistry.

Who created the chemistry?

 

[Shemjaza]

Who created the chemistry?

Irrelevant to the argument about how possible evolution is and how its mechanisms work.

The evidence for evolution currently and historically is compelling, whether God did or did not start it up or direct it doesn't change anything.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Irrelevant to the argument about how possible evolution is and how its mechanisms work.

The evidence for evolution currently and historically is compelling, whether God did or did not start it up or direct it doesn't change anything.

The problem is that there is no substantive evidence for evolution. It is all guesswork about something that might have or probably happened.

Actually, those who are working so hard at preserving endangered species of animals and bird are denying evolution, because they are working against natural selection in which it is the survival of the fittest. If a species is unable to survive in the natural, then isn't that how evolution works?

The issue is that when godless scientists refuse to let the divine have a foot in the door, evolution is their only answer. But evolution is not a science because science has to be based on empirical evidence, which is non-existent for it.

Creation is also not a science, because it involves God who created everything out of nothing in six 24 hour days. That is a supernatural miracle and cannot be supported by science.

So, it comes down to whether we believe the first two chapters of Genesis or not. If we can't believe those two chapters as being the true historical account of the creation of the universe, then we can't rely on the rest of the Bible, including the promises of God involving our salvation. Therefore, we can't have any confidence that we are going to experience anything after death but absolute oblivion. After all, if we are just a bag of molecules and nothing more, what is the point of all our planning for the future, our aspirations, and quest for self-improvement and a better world, if at the end of our lives all we do is to rot in the grave and nothing more?

So, deciding not to accept the first two chapters of Genesis as literal, accurate history, opens up a whole can of worms which we cannot resolve.

 

[pitabread]

The problem is that there is no substantive evidence for evolution.

Once again, I can understand the frustration that creationist Todd Wood who needs to continually correct creationists repeating this same falsehood over and over again:

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it.​

...

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. ​

The truth about evolution

If we can't believe those two chapters as being the true historical account of the creation of the universe, then we can't rely on the rest of the Bible, including the promises of God involving our salvation.

If your entire religious faith rests on science being wrong about something, then you're probably doing it wrong.

 

[pitabread]

Who created the chemistry?

Doesn't seem relevant to the fact that chemical reactions are generally predictive (e.g. not chance).

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Doesn't seem relevant to the fact that chemical reactions are generally predictive (e.g. not chance).

A chemical reaction has to be initiated by someone. It does not happen by chance, so who initiated it?

 

[pitabread]

A chemical reaction has to be initiated by someone.

No they don't.

Chemical reactions occur when chemicals interact with one another. Deliberate initiation of the interaction is not required. The reactions will occur regardless.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

No they don't.

Chemical reactions occur when chemicals interact with one another. Deliberate initiation of the interaction is not required. The reactions will occur regardless.

Ok. If you say so...doesn't convince me though.
So, another question:
If the full genetic information is written into each brain stem cell as a complex set of instructions about the development of every cell in the human body, the nature of it, and which component of the human body it is for, and the chance of it happening spontaneously is 1:10 to the power of one billion, who do you think wrote the complex digital code that makes up this set of instructions, if decoded, there would not be enough room in all the world to store the decoded instructions?

 

[Strathos]

Ah! But God is not limited by any of our laws of physics. God is God and creating something out of nothing is easy for Him.

God is not nothing.

 

[pitabread]

If the full genetic information is written into each brain stem cell as a complex set of instructions about the development of every cell in the human body, the nature of it, and which component of the human body it is for, and the chance of it happening spontaneously is 1:10 to the power of one billion

But again, nobody thinks that our genetic code appeared "spontaneously". Making up arbitrary probabilities about scenarios that nobody thinks occurred isn't relevant here.

who do you think wrote the complex digital code that makes up this set of instructions

I don't think anyone wrote it nor needed to write it. Our (e.g. human) genetic code is the result of ~4 billion years worth of genetic evolution.

And if you want to go back to the origin of DNA itself, this goes back to the subject of biochemistry and investigation into molecular pathways which gave rise to DNA.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But again, nobody thinks that our genetic code appeared "spontaneously". Making up arbitrary probabilities about scenarios that nobody thinks occurred isn't relevant here.



I don't think anyone wrote it nor needed to write it. Our (e.g. human) genetic code is the result of ~4 billion years worth of genetic evolution.

And if you want to go back to the origin of DNA itself, this goes back to the subject of biochemistry and investigation into molecular pathways which gave rise to DNA.

You haven't addressed the fact that an eminent scientist fed the data into the most powerful computer available to calculate the odds of the genetic code occurring by chance and the result was 1:10 to the power of 1 billion, which means that there is no chance at all.

So the theory that it happened by chance over 4 billion years of genetic evolution is just science fantasy. The only realistic answer is what secular scientists are avoiding - that a superior intelligence supplied the genetic information into the cells - in other words, God.

 

[Tinker Grey]

You haven't addressed the fact that an eminent scientist fed the data into the most powerful computer available to calculate the odds of the genetic code occurring by chance and the result was 1:10 to the power of 1 billion, which means that there is no chance at all.

So the theory that it happened by chance over 4 billion years of genetic evolution is just science fantasy. The only realistic answer is what secular scientists are avoiding - that a superior intelligence supplied the genetic information into the cells - in other words, God.

Name the scientist. Name the computer. Give a date and a reference. What program was run? How was it programmed? What exact data was fed to this program? Is this like the story from the 60s where someone ran a program and found a missing day? Really, really, not convincing.

And, 1 in a billion is indeed a chance; it's 1 in a billion. Yanno, like winning the lottery.

 

[pitabread]

You haven't addressed the fact that an eminent scientist fed the data into the most powerful computer available to calculate the odds of the genetic code occurring by chance

First, I'd like to see a citation for this.

Second, nobody thinks that genetic code "occurred by chance". You're just continually arguing a strawman.

None of this is relevant.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Name the scientist. Name the computer. Give a date and a reference. What program was run? How was it programmed? What exact data was fed to this program? Is this like the story from the 60s where someone ran a program and found a missing day? Really, really, not convincing.

And, 1 in a billion is indeed a chance; it's 1 in a billion. Yanno, like winning the lottery.

Here is a good link:
Probability and Order Versus Evolution

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

First, I'd like to see a citation for this.

Second, nobody thinks that genetic code "occurred by chance". You're just continually arguing a strawman.

None of this is relevant.

So, if it didn't happen by chance, it must have been deliberately designed and implemented.