What does prayer do?

[Tom 1]

That sounds exactly like saying I need to look through faith-glasses

Not in the sense of faith in the bible, although you could say it does take some faith to accept that your own ideas about the world are just that, some ideas. Realising that is a good starting point.

I'm not interested in being right; I'm interested in finding the truth.

Maybe. It looks more like you are trying to cram things you are unsure about into some set of arbitrary definitions.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Not in the sense of faith in the bible, although you could say it does take some faith to accept that your own ideas about the world are just that, some ideas. Realising that is a good starting point.

Tom, that's what I always think.

Maybe. It looks more like you are trying to cram things you are unsure about into some set of arbitrary definitions.

No, it doesn't.
I am waiting for you to address the topic of this thread.

 

[Tom 1]

I think you are not understanding what I am saying.
Whether God exists or not may be a difficult and complicated thing to determine; but it's a supremely simple question; the answer is either yes or no.

Treating it as a simple answer seems to have limited results, like either believing it or getting stuck in endless debates. For me I think it is important to know what the bible is - how it can be defined as literature, who wrote it, why, when etc - as far as those things can be known. That gives you some grist for thinking about ok what is meant by ‘true’ here, then, if you want, you can go on to the question of whether those things seem useful or believable.

 

[Tom 1]

Tom, that's what I always think.

No, it doesn't.
I am waiting for you to address the topic of this thread.

Lol I did, but you didn’t like my answer. I can’t imagine anything that could actually happen in the real world, in the world as we experience it, that would be ‘proof’ of prayer. The options for explaining one thing or another are endless, and we mostly choose one over another according to our overall perspective, way of thinking etc.

 

[MrsFoundit]

I'm not interested in being right; I'm interested in finding the truth.

Do explain the difference...

 

[MrsFoundit]

This is a place for Christians to rationally defend their beliefs. If your defense is "try it and you'll see that it's right" then you have failed to do so.

Do you have evidence to support this claim?

 

[MrsFoundit]

So, what evidence do you have? "A combination of things that don't always fit easily into a neat definition" does not sound like the kind of thing we should be hearing on a debating forum.

"does not sound like the kind of thing we should be hearing on a debating forum"

Why not?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Treating it as a simple answer seems to have limited results, like either believing it or getting stuck in endless debates. For me I think it is important to know what the bible is - how it can be defined as literature, who wrote it, why, when etc - as far as those things can be known. That gives you some grist for thinking about ok what is meant by ‘true’ here, then, if you want, you can go on to the question of whether those things seem useful or believable.

It depends what you're discussing. If you're talking about the history of the Bible, or what it can teach you about the societies it describes, then yes, such knowledge is very important. If, on the other hand, you're discussing an issue such as whether God exists or not, then the question of who wrote the Bible and why is of far less significance than the reasons we have, or don't have, to think that they were correct.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Do explain the difference...

Sure.
I don't mind being proved wrong and changing my views if they turn out not to be right.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Do you have evidence to support this claim?

Yes.
"Christian Apologetics is a branch of theology that concerns itself with the rational defense of the Christian faith against arguments and opposing viewpoints. The purpose of the Christian Apologetics forum is to give non-Christians the opportunity to start threads to challenge Christian theology, beliefs and practices, and Christians the opportunity to rationally defend their beliefs."

"does not sound like the kind of thing we should be hearing on a debating forum"
Why not?

Because it isn't about making a claim and defending it with arguments or evidence. As such, it isn't the Christian rationally defending their beliefs.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Sure. I understand perfectly well what the Bible is, and am ready to debate it with you.

Do tell us, what is the Bible?

You claim perfect comprehension, please demonstrate.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Lol I did, but you didn’t like my answer. I can’t imagine anything that could actually happen in the real world, in the world as we experience it, that would be ‘proof’ of prayer. The options for explaining one thing or another are endless, and we mostly choose one over another according to our overall perspective, way of thinking etc.

Sounds a lot like prayer doesn't actually do anything.
You realise, there are plenty of other Christians who think that prayer can and does produce effects in the real world.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Do tell us, what is the Bible?

You claim perfect comprehension, please demonstrate.

When did I claim perfect comprehension?

 

[Tom 1]

Sounds a lot like prayer doesn't actually do anything.
You realise, there are plenty of other Christians who think that prayer can and does produce effects in the real world.

It has effects in my life, as far as I am concerned. Whether or not you think it does is besides the point.

 

[Tom 1]

It depends what you're discussing. If you're talking about the history of the Bible, or what it can teach you about the societies it describes, then yes, such knowledge is very important. If, on the other hand, you're discussing an issue such as whether God exists or not, then the question of who wrote the Bible and why is of far less significance than the reasons we have, or don't have, to think that they were correct.

No, you really are incorrect there. For some reason many atheists I’ve read or heard talking about this have this kind of idea, but there is simply no way to develop an understanding the bible without having a reasonable idea of the preoccupations, modes of expression, literary styles, and so on for another 7 pages of text. If you think the bible just means whatever you think it does when you read bits of it then you’re back to the position of a dog chasing its tail.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

It has effects in my life, as far as I am concerned. Whether or not you think it does is besides the point.

No, actually it isn't besides the point.
You think that prayer is real, and you are communicating, in some fashion, with God. I think that it isn't, and you aren't.
The claim that God is real and that you are communicating with Him is a scientific one, because it produces effects in the real world. God Himself may or may not be subject to scientific investigation, but if He is producing effects in the material world - ie, communicating with you - then that is a matter which can, in principle, be investigated.
Would you agree with that?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

No, you really are incorrect there. For some reason many atheists I’ve read or heard talking about this have this kind of idea, but there is simply no way to develop an understanding the bible without having a reasonable idea of the preoccupations, modes of expression, literary styles, and so on for another 7 pages of text. If you think the bible just means whatever you think it does when you read bits of it then you’re back to the position of a dog chasing its tail.

I'm sorry, Tom, but it's you who is wrong here.
Discussion of the history, linguistics and sociology of the Bible in society may take advanced levels of study. But most apologetics isn't concerned with this. Rather, it's concerned with logical arguments put forward by Christians containing elementary flaws in reasoning that are relatively easy to point out. The truth of this is apparent in any debate between an atheist and a Christian, and can easily be seen on these forums.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Lol I did, but you didn’t like my answer. I can’t imagine anything that could actually happen in the real world, in the world as we experience it, that would be ‘proof’ of prayer.

I think this is a pretty good example:
Christian Forums
I'm sure you know the story. Elijah challenged the priests of a rival God to a praying competition; told the people to follow the winner; mocked the priests of Baal when their prayers were unanswered; and then prayed to Jehovah, who answered him.
There's lots of stories in the Bible which show you to be wrong in saying that God never answers prayers. God answers prayers all the time - in stories. In real life? That's another question.

The options for explaining one thing or another are endless, and we mostly choose one over another according to our overall perspective, way of thinking etc.

A Creationist argument if ever I saw one! Trying to pretend that all answers are equally valid so that your own weak arguments can count for something.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think this is a pretty good example:
Christian Forums
I'm sure you know the story. Elijah challenged the priests of a rival God to a praying competition; told the people to follow the winner; mocked the priests of Baal when their prayers were unanswered; and then prayed to Jehovah, who answered him.
There's lots of stories in the Bible which show you to be wrong in saying that God never answers prayers. God answers prayers all the time - in stories. In real life? That's another question.

A Creationist argument if ever I saw one! Trying to pretend that all answers are equally valid so that your own weak arguments can count for something.

So, what was all that stuff Jesus said to "Boanerges"? Might that temper just a little bit of this so-called challenge that you think we Christians should undertake, Elijah style?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

So, what was all that stuff Jesus said to "Boanerges"? Might that temper just a little bit of this so-called challenge that you think we Christians should undertake, Elijah style?

Reference, please?