The lie of the "right" regarding socialism

[Lazarus Long]

Capitalists make everything that you don't make or grow yourself.
In the photos above, capitalists gather goods to create a home for themselves.
Even a small community.

The people below are not capitalists:

Who did you say makes your clothing and shoes, I really need a good laugh. Oh wait it's the 1% bahahahahah

 

[SkyWriting]

Based on how middle class incomes have stagnated since trickle-down became a thing, apparently not all that much that benefits the rest of society.

The middle class was fluke resulting from the mass value of industrialization getting into the hands of people doing the few things michines could not handle.

Their wealth is now draining out into the hands of the poor who are making their clothes and shoes. That living standards of the rural farmers in China is exploding. The poor of the world are experiencing massive increases in literacy and healthcare they've never had before.

 

[SkyWriting]

Who did you say makes your clothing and shoes, I really need a good laugh. Oh wait it's the 1% bahahahahah

The poorest people in the world make our shoes and clothes thanks to capitalism.
These people don't build sewing machines at home.

 

[KCfromNC]

The middle class was fluke resulting from the mass value of industrialization getting into the hands of people doing the few things michines could not handle.

Seems like an admission that whatever trickle-down did do, it didn't help society as a whole.

Their wealth is now draining out into the hands of the poor who are making their clothes and shoes. That living standards of the rural farmers in China is exploding. The poor of the world are experiencing massive increases in literacy and healthcare they've never had before.

All thanks to capitalists moving their capital out of the country. Again, wherever stuff happens to be trickling it looks like it isn't trickling to the US middle class.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

You mean is working? Pick any Scandinavian or Nordic country, very simple.

Sorry to say .. you are wrong.. none of the Scandinavian countries are Socialist country. They have higher tax and many of the service like education, health care are universal , but Scandinavian economy is based on Capitalism. Less than 40% citizen are employed by public sector , rest are privately owned company! They do pay 60% + taxes but their economic model is based on Capitalism.

 

[rjs330]

That is the fantasy world many over there seem to believe in. Where does that come from? I’ve been to the US and I was frankly astonished by the level of poverty and urban decay. People literally living in shacks on the edges of the city, like in a 3rd world country, abandoned buildings in the centre of town. People afraid to walk anywhere. Massively overweight zombies trundling around shopping malls fulfilling their duty to consume, consume, consume to keep the whole thing going. Have you ever been over here? What do you imagine is mediocre about Europe? Who doesn’t have spending money - I have plenty, and so do most people I know, and few of us have an unusually high income. Who runs this dumb propaganda, really? Looking at this and other similar threads it’s pretty obvious that the average American doles out more cash for the things most people in European countries take for granted and gets far less in return. Why do you all feel the need to insist that your illusions are real? What benefit do you get from that? And what on Earth are you talking about with ‘mediocrity’? Are you genuinely unaware of, well, anything outside of your back yard?

European socialism is not what we want. And yes I have been there. I've been to Great Britain, Ireland, Germany and Norway.

You have obviously bought into the socialist ideal. The socialist pay for it dearly.
Why Socialism Is Still Awful Despite Its European Image Makeover

They pay and pay and pay. The healthcare sounds great cause people don't have to pay for it. Yet it fails when it comes to innovation and ease of healthcare. Particularly for needs that go beyond the typical. My step mom's brother suffered for months when he needed surgery to repair a mesh in his stomach. This would not have happened here. When she came to the states she was amazed at the quick service dad got. And many people come here for service they can't get elsewhere.

Bernie touts Finland's failing healthcare system in his call for socialism

Yes the US system needs reform. There is no doubt about it. But single payer systems are not the only answer. But it seems like it's the only answer the left in America will listen to.

And income in America is greater than Europe. Even among the poor. You talked about the over weight people. That's because we don't control what people eat. Even our poor do better.

America’s poorest are richer than most average Europeans: Study

Look, I really enjoyed visiting Europe. We had a great time. And I honestly would love to live in Ireland. And if I did I would understand that my way if life would need to change. I'd accept that.

There are great benefits to both ways of living. But I don't want to change America into Europe. The way if life here is different and much of Europes way just wouldn't work here. $6-9 dollars a gallon for gas, stores that close down at 6. The inability to work more if want to. The high cost of utilities, less spending money etc. If you live the European way, then great. Go live in Europe.

I'm just asking Americans not to force those who don't want it to have to have it. If you want it there are LOTS of places that have it. If you don't want it, then America is all that's left.

 

[rjs330]

Seems like an admission that whatever trickle-down did do, it didn't help society as a whole.


All thanks to capitalists moving their capital out of the country. Again, wherever stuff happens to be trickling it looks like it isn't trickling to the US middle class.

Yes it is because the middle class here is moving up, not down.

 

[Speedwell]

...stores that close down at 6.

You've mentioned that in several of your rants about socialism--it must really bother you. But tell me: do you think that is a necessary or sufficient condition for socialism? Have communities in the US where the stores close early like that necessarily embraced socialism?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Replace the word socialism with capitalism and you will be correct.
'Capitalism (unrestrained) is always going to benefit a small group at the top..."

No I am not inclined to let you rewrite my posts. Capitalism benefits everyone to a degree but the benefits of capitalism will accrue more to those that innovate, achieve , take good decisions and are not risk averse than they will to others. This is a problem for those that see their self worth in terms of social status and measure their social status in terms of how much others have more than themselves. As a measure of fulfilling of basic needs, Capitalism is a unmitigated success story raising entire populations out of crippling destitution. Socialism is an unmitigated failure returning those that have risen out of crippling destitution back to that state.

 

[Tom 1]

European socialism is not what we want. And yes I have been there. I've been to Great Britain, Ireland, Germany and Norway.

You have obviously bought into the socialist ideal. The socialist pay for it dearly.
Why Socialism Is Still Awful Despite Its European Image Makeover

They pay and pay and pay. The healthcare sounds great cause people don't have to pay for it. Yet it fails when it comes to innovation and ease of healthcare. Particularly for needs that go beyond the typical. My step mom's brother suffered for months when he needed surgery to repair a mesh in his stomach. This would not have happened here. When she came to the states she was amazed at the quick service dad got. And many people come here for service they can't get elsewhere.

Bernie touts Finland's failing healthcare system in his call for socialism

Yes the US system needs reform. There is no doubt about it. But single payer systems are not the only answer. But it seems like it's the only answer the left in America will listen to.

And income in America is greater than Europe. Even among the poor. You talked about the over weight people. That's because we don't control what people eat. Even our poor do better.

America’s poorest are richer than most average Europeans: Study

Look, I really enjoyed visiting Europe. We had a great time. And I honestly would love to live in Ireland. And if I did I would understand that my way if life would need to change. I'd accept that.

There are great benefits to both ways of living. But I don't want to change America into Europe. The way if life here is different and much of Europes way just wouldn't work here. $6-9 dollars a gallon for gas, stores that close down at 6. The inability to work more if want to. The high cost of utilities, less spending money etc. If you live the European way, then great. Go live in Europe.

I'm just asking Americans not to force those who don't want it to have to have it. If you want it there are LOTS of places that have it. If you don't want it, then America is all that's left.

I read the first one in the Federalist, it really is extraordinarily biased, if you remove the subjectively arranged parts there wouldn't be much more than punctuation left. Doesn't get off the starting line in terms of addressing the issue in the headline in any sort of useful way.
I spent a bit of time a while back trying to find a useful conservative news publication from the US, and I liked Human Events. I didn't agree with the ideas expressed but at least they have a good stab at trying to analyse and report. Most of the other stuff is just propaganda.

 

[Speedwell]

No I am not inclined to let you rewrite my posts. Capitalism benefits everyone to a degree but the benefits of capitalism will accrue more to those that innovate, achieve , take good decisions and are not risk averse than they will to others. This is a problem for those that see their self worth in terms of social status and measure their social status in terms of how much others have more than themselves. As a measure of fulfilling of basic needs, Capitalism is a unmitigated success story raising entire populations out of crippling destitution. Socialism is an unmitigated failure returning those that have risen out of crippling destitution back to that state.

State ownership of the means of production (if that's what you mean by "socialism") has not been very successful. On the other hand, capitalist economies which adopt social safety net programs--like the EU, Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand, etc.--have indeed been successful.

 

[grasping the after wind]

State ownership of the means of production (if that's what you mean by "socialism") has not been very successful. On the other hand, capitalist economies which adopt social safety net programs--like the EU, Scandinavia, Australia, New Zealand, etc.--have indeed been successful.

Absolutely true. Every successful western capitalist country spends vast amounts of money on their social safety net programs. In the US alone the expenditures are enormous not only for US citizens welfare but for the welfare of the citizens of other countries as well. Only an economy that produces wealth can spread that wealth.That is why capitalist countries are not just able to provide for the basic needs of their citizens but to provide for many wants as well.

 

[iluvatar5150]

They pay and pay and pay. The healthcare sounds great cause people don't have to pay for it. Yet it fails when it comes to innovation and ease of healthcare.

Medical innovation in the US is funded in large part by the government.

 

[Silmarien]

It doesn't require an unregulated limited liability corporation to make bricks and clothes, even if the bricks and clothes are made in a capitalist economy. Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are in private rather than government hands. The brickmaker or the tailor in a small village are capitalists if they own their own tools.

I don't think this is the correct definition of capitalism, at least according to Marxist theory, where the key factor in capitalism is that the means of production are owned by the bourgeoisie rather than the workers themselves. Stateless forms of socialism are basically being defined out of existence if capitalism is understood this broadly.

 

[Robin Mauro]

No I am not inclined to let you rewrite my posts. Capitalism benefits everyone to a degree but the benefits of capitalism will accrue more to those that innovate, achieve , take good decisions and are not risk averse than they will to others. This is a problem for those that see their self worth in terms of social status and measure their social status in terms of how much others have more than themselves. As a measure of fulfilling of basic needs, Capitalism is a unmitigated success story raising entire populations out of crippling destitution. Socialism is an unmitigated failure returning those that have risen out of crippling destitution back to that state.

Oh ya, and that's why we have millions of homeless people and millions more who cannot afford to live from their low paying jobs.
That's why people lose their homes due to medical bills and their lives when they cannot pay.
Have you ever studied the labor movement, and how people died standing up for basic safety regulations and fair labor practices?
You should.
Uncontrolled capitalism exploits the laborer and the environment. God hates oppression! We are called to love our neighbor as ourselves and to treat each other fairly.
And in Revelation ch. 11 God says he will destroy those who destroy the earth!
"The love of money is the root of all evil."
Read your Bible!

 

[Speedwell]

I don't think this is the correct definition of capitalism, at least according to Marxist theory, where the key factor in capitalism is that the means of production are owned by the bourgeoisie rather than the workers themselves. Stateless forms of socialism are basically being defined out of existence if capitalism is understood this broadly.

Technically I agree with you, but I think it is important to point out that capitalism does not necessarily entail the formation of limited-liability corporations. Capitalism is no less capitalism if it is carried out by sole proprietorships or partnerships. A person who objects to or is critical of rentier capitalism is not necessarily advocating for socialism.

 

[Tom 1]

From what I've seen in this thread, by attempting to conflate having better health insurance with turning the country into Cuba or something.

Similar accusations of rampant communism were made when you guys first got a national grid over there.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Oh ya, and that's why we have millions of homeless people and millions more who cannot afford to live from their low paying jobs.
That's why people lose their homes due to medical bills and their lives when they cannot pay.
Have you ever studied the labor movement, and how people died standing up for basic safety regulations and fair labor practices?
You should.
Uncontrolled capitalism exploits the laborer and the environment. God hates oppression! We are called to love our neighbor as ourselves and to treat each other fairly.
And in Revelation ch. 11 God says he will destroy those who destroy the earth!
"The love of money is the root of all evil."
Read your Bible!

Study the Bible. Just reading it leads to cherry picking that which one likes and ignoring that which one dislikes.

 

[Robin Mauro]

Medical innovation in the US is funded in large part by the government.

And people go to Mexico for dental work and Canada for prescriptions. Every other industrialized country affords health care, and yet the "right' claims we cannot afford it here.
And yet we can afford tax breaks for the rich, a military that doesn't even account for half it's spending, corporate welfare for oil companies, welfare for GMO corporate farms, and now, a space force?!!! Ugh, and on and on it goes. And yet the one thing they claim we can never afford is the poor, as Trump cuts social security, medicare and so on, while flat out lying about it in his speech. It is sickening what greed has done to this country.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I don't think this is the correct definition of capitalism, at least according to Marxist theory, where the key factor in capitalism is that the means of production are owned by the bourgeoisie rather than the workers themselves. Stateless forms of socialism are basically being defined out of existence if capitalism is understood this broadly.

According to Marxist theory? Why would anyone base their ideas about reality using Karl Marx's fairy tales?