Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

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parousia70

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You're probably familiar with several verses saying that Christians die with Christ in baptism and are raised again. Also, the Lord said, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die."

This is the 1st resurrection that believers partake in. It is, indeed, past and ongoing. I agree w/ @sovereigngrace that it allows the souls of God's people to rise to paradise during the intermediate state.

I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies.

In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, (Not had happened at the cross or their baptism as you seem to suggest) as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).
 
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sovereigngrace

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I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies.

In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, (Not had happened at the cross or their baptism as you seem to suggest) as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

And when exactly did/do you think the "O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies"?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I am of the view that 1 Thess 4:13-17 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies.

In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, (Not had happened at the cross or their baptism as you seem to suggest) as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

And what exactly precipitates this escape?
 
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claninja

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Through His death, burial and resurrection. You?

That doesn’t answer my whole question. I asked what verses do you use to support this belief. Then I will respond.
 
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parousia70

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And when exactly did/do you think the "O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies"?....
And what exactly precipitates this escape?

Already Answered in detail, with multiple scripture citations for support, in the very post you quoted... I have to wonder if you even read it before commenting?

I'll post it again:
[In 1 Thess 4:13-17] Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, (Not had happened at the cross or their baptism as you seem to suggest) as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

For as the writer of Hebrews Testified, decades AFTER the cross:
"the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing." (Heb 9:8)
 
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parousia70

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This is the 1st resurrection that believers partake in. It is, indeed, past and ongoing. I agree w/ @sovereigngrace that it allows the souls of God's people to rise to paradise during the intermediate state.

I Find myself in broad agreement with you on the Identity of the "First Resurrection" being Christ Himself, and I must say even though I disagree on some of the finer points, I am heartened by what I see as a noticeable shift on CF away from "resurrection is past = heresy" to a more nuanced approach to the subject of the Resurrection and an affirmation of the orthodoxy in the view that, in some fashion at least, it is Past and has been past (and ongoing) since the First century.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Already Answered in detail, with multiple scripture citations for support, in the very post you quoted... I have to wonder if you even read it before commenting?

I'll post it again:
[In 1 Thess 4:13-17] Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, (Not had happened at the cross or their baptism as you seem to suggest) as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

For as the writer of Hebrews Testified, decades AFTER the cross:
"the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing." (Heb 9:8)

When do you think this happened and what did this entail?
 
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parousia70

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When do you think this happened and what did this entail?

As the scriptures I provided indicate, At the temples 70AD destruction, and it entailed the dead in Christ rising from the Hadean realm to be with Him in the heavenlies.

What does scripture teach about the resurrection of the dead?

(1) Resurrection was "about to" happen in Paul's lifetime -- "there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous" (Acts 24:15).

(2) Paul expected that he and the first-century Thessalonians would remain alive unto the resurrection -- "we who are living, who do remain over to the presence of the Lord, may not precede those asleep" (1 Thess 4:15)

(3) Resurrection involved the defeat of HADES/PURGATORIO (the place of the OT dead), which was tied to end of the Mosaic Law era -- "then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up -- to victory; where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?' and the sting of the death is the sin, and the power of the sin the law" (1 Cor 15:54-56)

(4) Resurrection is always for "the dead," and it involves heavenly, spiritual bodies -- "it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body...and, according as we did bear the image of the earthy, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly." (1 Cor 15:44,49)

If you disagree, then go ahead and take the scriptures I cited show us why they don't mean what I contend they do, and give us your alternative interpretation of them.
 
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parousia70

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THE TIMING OF RESURRECTION
Paul does not tie Resurrection of the Dead (which he taught was ABOUT TO happen in their lifetimes -- Acts 24:15; Romans 13:11, 1 Thess 4:15) to the end of the New Covenant Age as many futurists just assume. Rather, the institution of Resurrection of the Dead is tied to the end of the Old Testament Age in Pauline theology. That is, Paul ties the institution of Resurrection to the removal of THE OLD COVENANT LAW OF MOSES. I'll take us forward to see in 1 Cor 15 how Paul ties the victory of resurrection to the end of the LAW AGE.

"THE STING OF DEATH IS SIN AND THE STRENGTH OF SIN IS THE LAW [OF MOSES]"
Paul's famous and triumphant summary of his teaching on resurrection of the dead is indeed tied to the end of the LAW AGE and not the end of the New Covenant Age. Paul believed that the sting and victory of death (which futurists teach have not yet been eradicated) existed due to SIN POWERED BY THE LAW OF MOSES! (1 Cor 15:56). Paul writes:

1 Corinthians 15:54-56
and when this corruptible may have put on incorruption, and this mortal may have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the word that hath been written, 'The Death was swallowed up in victory [55] where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?'[56] And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

This is worth repeating here. Paul ties the resurrection victory to the removal of THE LAW covenant of Moses:

'The Death was swallowed up in victory [55] where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?'[56] And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW

Paul's teaching that the Law of Moses is the code that gives power to sin and therefore death can be found fully developed in Romans 7:5-14. Only by the removal of the Law and its earthly curses and Temple would the Temple in Heaven be opened up to receive the dead out of the hadean realm (Hebrews 9:8; 1 Cor 15:55-56). So the dead were raised out of HADES at the end of the Old Covenant Age which was at AD 70 when the earthly Temple System was abolished forever.

In Sum:
As Paul's own teaching in 1 Corinthians 15:55-56 shows, the end of death via the institution of resurrection of the dead (granting of eternal life to the saints - Lk 18:30; Titus; 1 Tim 6:19) is actually tied to the removal of THE LAW OF MOSES which was the power of sin and death and was in effect over the Nation until the Temple/Law economy was destroyed at AD 70.

None of this of course NEGATES the future CREEDAL resurrection into the FINAL ETERNAL STATE of all things.
 
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Christian Gedge

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(1) Resurrection was "about to" happen in Paul's lifetime -- "there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous" (Acts 24:15).

I don't think you'll find many Bible versions that poke "about to" into that verse.
 
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parousia70

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I don't think you'll find many Bible versions that poke "about to" into that verse.
Define Poke?
By Poke do you mean accurately, Literally translate the Greek word "Mello" to the English "to be about to be" instead of "Shall Be"?

Yep.. Young's Literal does the Job, but if you aren't a fan of literal translations I suppose you wouldn't be a fan of Young's:
Acts 24:15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, [that] there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

We can also use the KJV with strongs, though the english is That there shall be, you can click on that phrase and it will take to to the Greek Mello and affirm its definition of "To be about to happen" "To be on the point of happening", "About to be":
15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
 
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Christian Gedge

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(2) Paul expected that he and the first-century Thessalonians would remain alive unto the resurrection -- "we who are living, who do remain over to the presence of the Lord, may not precede those asleep" (1 Thess 4:15)

You forgot to quote verse 16, "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God"

That would have scared the Roman soldiers back to the Swiss alps!
 
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DavidPT

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(1) Resurrection was "about to" happen in Paul's lifetime -- "there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous" (Acts 24:15).

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Where does it say in this verse that Paul was expecting this resurrection was about to happen in his lifetime? Where does it say anything like that anywhere in Acts 24?

(2) Paul expected that he and the first-century Thessalonians would remain alive unto the resurrection -- "we who are living, who do remain over to the presence of the Lord, may not precede those asleep" (1 Thess 4:15)


Seriously, if we which are alive and remain, were to include Paul, how could he possibly have known for a 100% fact, that he would be among them who are still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord? Paul wasn't psychic, was he? Paul wasn't all knowing, was he? Clearly he understood things, but that is not the same as being all knowing, which he would have to be all knowing in order to know for a 100% fact, that he would be among those which are still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.
 
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parousia70

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You forgot to quote verse 16, "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God"

That would have scared the Roman soldiers back to the Swiss alps!

And every time that Happened in the OT when God came down from Heaven with a shout and a trumpet in the company of angels, How many soldiers did it scare?
 
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parousia70

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Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


Where does it say in this verse that Paul was expecting this resurrection was about to happen in his lifetime? Where does it say anything like that anywhere in Acts 24?

See my post #193 above.

Seriously, if we which are alive and remain, were to include Paul, how could he possibly have known for a 100% fact, that he would be among them who are still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord? Paul wasn't psychic, was he? Paul wasn't all knowing, was he? Clearly he understood things, but that is not the same as being all knowing, which he would have to be all knowing in order to know for a 100% fact, that he would be among those which are still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.

Was Paul led by the Holy Spirit into error for Believing, and TEACHING it was possible?

Whoever WE includes, it surely cannot EXCLUDE Paul and His original audience. Paul certainly never teaches it EXCLUDES Himself and His original audience.
 
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mkgal1

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You forgot to quote verse 16, "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God"

That would have scared the Roman soldiers back to the Swiss alps!
Could you let us know the context that you understand applies to Isaiah 13?
 
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claninja

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Seriously, if we which are alive and remain, were to include Paul, how could he possibly have known for a 100% fact, that he would be among them who are still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord? Paul wasn't psychic, was he? Paul wasn't all knowing, was he? Clearly he understood things, but that is not the same as being all knowing, which he would have to be all knowing in order to know for a 100% fact, that he would be among those which are still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.


I find it interesting that it isn't until "after" the dead rise, that those who are still alive will be caught up to the Lord.

1 thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

As a premil, do you believe you will be caught up the Lord upon physical death, or do you believe you will go into the ground and sleep until the 2nd coming?


 
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DavidPT

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As a premil, do you believe you will be caught up the Lord upon physical death, or do you believe you will go into the ground and sleep until the 2nd coming?



Your question is making no sense to me, unfortunately. I bet you could ask some Amils the same thing, and they wouldn't see your question making any sense to them either. This couldn't possibly involve Premil vs. Amil.

When one is caught up after the dead in Christ rise first, that gathering is in the air, in the clouds, and that those who are still alive and remain, are being gathered together in the air, in the clouds, with those that rise first, and of course, with the Lord. When one physically dies, there is no such gathering like that taking place at the time.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Look what the text says. Clearly not everyone dies at the same time in this age. Is one to think, that when each person dies, the Lord himself then descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first, etc, each time someone dies?


1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 can only be meaning a one time event, thus has zero to do with when each person dies in this age. Even though a person's soul goes to heaven when they die, what does any of that have to do with anything in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16?
 
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