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Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

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DavidPT

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You keep stating this without explaining 'why?' Where is your evidence? Constantly repeating a theory is completely different to proving a fact. The truth matters!


I have proven this throughout this thread numerous times. Did you ever debunk what I concluded in any of those posts? It's possible that I may have missed a post like that by you, assuming you have done that in this thread. If there is such a post by you where you debunked what I feel I proved, can you point me to that post?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I have proven this throughout this thread numerous times. Did you ever debunk what I concluded in any of those posts? It's possible that I may have missed a post like that by you, assuming you have done that in this thread. If there is such a post by you where you debunked what I feel I proved, can you point me to that post?

Revelation 20:4 says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be (plural future middle indicative) priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign (plural future middle indicative) with him a thousand years.”

The focus here is what results from the “first resurrection.” It is not just that the elect secure eternal salvation and are saved from the terror of eternal punishment (the second death) but it is that they become kings and priests as a result of this great victory over every enemy that has held man down. It is important to see that the wording here is made in the context of the resurrection. It commenced the millennial period, when Jesus defeated the grave. There is no other first resurrection.
 
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Andrewn

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What I have underlined, do you then think it will be like this for all eternity? If you agree this happens after the 2nd coming, yet disagree there is a thousand years after the 2nd coming, wouldn't that logically indicate it will be like this for forever, which then equals even unsaved survivors live for forever on the new earth, except in their case, they can be punished throughout eternity for refusing to comply with what's in verse 16 above?
This is true in the new heaven and new earth. NT Wright believes that eternity will be on a renewed earth. I don't like long posts and apologize for the following extensive quotations:

"Wright and Morse work independently of each other and in very different ideological settings, but their work shows a remarkable convergence on key points. In classic Judaism and first-century Christianity, believers expected this world would be transformed into God’s Kingdom — a restored Eden where redeemed human beings would be liberated from death, illness, sin and other corruptions."

"Once the Kingdom is complete, he said, the bodily resurrection will follow with a fully restored creation here on earth."

"While heaven is indisputably God’s realm, it’s not some distantly remote galaxy hopelessly removed from human reality. In the ancient Judaic worldview, Wright notes, the two dimensions intersect and overlap so that the divine bleeds over into this world.

"Other clues have been obscured by sloppy translations, such as the popular John 3:16, which says God so loved the world he gave his only son so that people could have “eternal life.”

"Wright offers a translation that radically recasts the message and shows how the passage would have been heard in the first century. To hear it today is to experience the shock of the new: God gave his son “so that everyone who believes in him should not be lost but should share in the life of God’s new age.”

“And so it’s not a Platonic, timeless eternity, which is what we were all taught,” Wright said. “It is very definitely that there will come a time when God will utterly transform this world — that will be the age to come.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...en-all-wrong/2012/05/16/gIQAD4lTUU_story.html

The following is a read a more detailed analysis:

Rethinking the Tradition
 
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parousia70

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The whole chapter, Zec 14, is about Armageddon / Gog & Magog.

Well, Since Jesus claimed that He Himself Fulfilled Zech 14:8 during His earthly Ministry (John 7:38), effectively cementing the "That Day" of Zechariah 14 to the 1st century, I would have to disagree with you and agree with Him on that.
 
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DavidPT

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Well, Since Jesus claimed that He Himself Fulfilled Zech 14:8 during His earthly Ministry (John 7:38), effectively cementing the "That Day" of Zechariah 14 to the 1st century, I would have to disagree with you and agree with Him on that.

We have to consider chronology though.


Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

This section is chronologically meaning after the following section.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

How do we know for certain? Compare verses 12-15 with that of Zechariah 14:11 from the first section I submitted. How could those things be true of Jerusalem in verse 11 if verse 12-15 were to chronologically follow? To place the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:8 during Christ's earthly ministry in the first century, is to then place verses 12-15 before the time of Christ's earthly ministry in the first century, since, like I already showed, chronologically speaking, Zechariah 14:12-15 precedes the events recorded in Zechariah 14:8-11.

Why not compare Zechariah 14:8 with something such as the following instead?

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

IMO, Revelation 22:1 is the time being meant in Zechariah 14:8.
 
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DavidPT

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This is true in the new heaven and new earth. NT Wright believes that eternity will be on a renewed earth. I don't like long posts and apologize for the following extensive quotations:

"Wright and Morse work independently of each other and in very different ideological settings, but their work shows a remarkable convergence on key points. In classic Judaism and first-century Christianity, believers expected this world would be transformed into God’s Kingdom — a restored Eden where redeemed human beings would be liberated from death, illness, sin and other corruptions."

"Once the Kingdom is complete, he said, the bodily resurrection will follow with a fully restored creation here on earth."

"While heaven is indisputably God’s realm, it’s not some distantly remote galaxy hopelessly removed from human reality. In the ancient Judaic worldview, Wright notes, the two dimensions intersect and overlap so that the divine bleeds over into this world.

"Other clues have been obscured by sloppy translations, such as the popular John 3:16, which says God so loved the world he gave his only son so that people could have “eternal life.”

"Wright offers a translation that radically recasts the message and shows how the passage would have been heard in the first century. To hear it today is to experience the shock of the new: God gave his son “so that everyone who believes in him should not be lost but should share in the life of God’s new age.”

“And so it’s not a Platonic, timeless eternity, which is what we were all taught,” Wright said. “It is very definitely that there will come a time when God will utterly transform this world — that will be the age to come.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...en-all-wrong/2012/05/16/gIQAD4lTUU_story.html

The following is a read a more detailed analysis:

Rethinking the Tradition


I looked at both links, though the 2nd link I only skimmed through rather than doing a thorough read of, and that I am left confused as to how anything in those links address what I asked you about, concerning Zechariah 14:16-19?
 
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DavidPT

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Revelation 20:4 says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be (plural future middle indicative) priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign (plural future middle indicative) with him a thousand years.”

The focus here is what results from the “first resurrection.” It is not just that the elect secure eternal salvation and are saved from the terror of eternal punishment (the second death) but it is that they become kings and priests as a result of this great victory over every enemy that has held man down. It is important to see that the wording here is made in the context of the resurrection. It commenced the millennial period, when Jesus defeated the grave. There is no other first resurrection.


But what about this part though, in that same verse----and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands? How could their martyrdom not have occurred during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13? And if it did occur during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, how is it then logical to also place the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 is already placing it before the thousand years?
 
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sovereigngrace

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But what about this part though, in that same verse----and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands? How could their martyrdom not have occurred during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13? And if it did occur during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, how is it then logical to also place the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 is already placing it before the thousand years?

This is speaking from the perspective of the "first resurrection." This can only relate to Christ's glorious victory over the grave that allowed the "souls" of God's people to rise to the heavenly abode during the intermediate state to reign with Christ.
 
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parousia70

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We have to consider chronology though.


Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

This section is chronologically meaning after the following section.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

How do we know for certain? Compare verses 12-15 with that of Zechariah 14:11 from the first section I submitted. How could those things be true of Jerusalem in verse 11 if verse 12-15 were to chronologically follow? To place the fulfillment of Zechariah 14:8 during Christ's earthly ministry in the first century, is to then place verses 12-15 before the time of Christ's earthly ministry in the first century, since, like I already showed, chronologically speaking, Zechariah 14:12-15 precedes the events recorded in Zechariah 14:8-11.

Why not compare Zechariah 14:8 with something such as the following instead?

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

IMO, Revelation 22:1 is the time being meant in Zechariah 14:8.

Well, before you can get into any of those weeds, your challenge is to identify what OT "arrival of flowing living waters" prophesy is Jesus claiming to have fulfilled "as the scripture hath said", if not Zechariah 14:8?
We don't have to wait for 14:8 to be fulfilled... Our access to the rivers of Living water is a present day reality. Christ made that abundantly clear.
 
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parousia70

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This is speaking from the perspective of the "first resurrection." This can only relate to Christ's glorious victory over the grave that allowed the "souls" of God's people to rise to the heavenly abode during the intermediate state to reign with Christ.

So, again, from your point of view, the resurrection of the dead in Christ is Past, and ongoing?

Whatever you call this "rising" of the dead in Christ, when do you say it took place and what scripture can you point to for support for the timing?

It's not the "He led captivity captive" verse is it?
Because if so, it does not mean what you think it does, and doesn't support the view at all.
 
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Andrewn

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I am left confused as to how anything in those links address what I asked you about, concerning Zechariah 14:16-19?
You asked 2 questions:

What I have underlined, do you then think it will be like this for all eternity?

and:

even unsaved survivors live for forever on the new earth, except in their case, they can be punished throughout eternity for refusing to comply with what's in verse 16 above?

To these, I replied:

This is true in the new heaven and new earth.

The rest of my answer was an explanation about the new heaven and new earth after the 2nd coming of Christ.
 
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claninja

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I looked at both links, though the 2nd link I only skimmed through rather than doing a thorough read of, and that I am left confused as to how anything in those links address what I asked you about, concerning Zechariah 14:16-19?

Remember, God spoke to the prophets in visions/dreams/parables (numbers 12:6-8, hosea 12:10).

If Zechariah's vision/dream/parable is pointing to literal earthly Jerusalem, it contradicts the words of Jesus. Jesus literally stated a time was coming when people would no longer worship in Jerusalem associated with the law of moses.

Zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

Jesus 4:21 said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

So what Jerusalem is Zechariah's vision/dream/parable about? I would argue The heavenly Jerusalem.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering.

Additionally, the requirement of literally keeping the feast of booths contradicts the words of Paul, as Paul tells us it no one is to be judged in regards to festival keeping as they were only a shadow of Christ.


Zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Thus, based on the NT, which reveals the old testament, a literal reading would be contradicting and inappropriate.
 
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Andrewn

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Well, before you can get into any of those weeds, your challenge is to identify what OT "arrival of flowing living waters" prophesy is Jesus claiming to have fulfilled "as the scripture hath said", if not Zechariah 14:8?
Joh 7:37 On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.”

This is quoted from OT passages that are combined together, a method which is frequently used in the NT:

Isa 55:1 Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Pro 4:23 Keep your heart with all vigilance; for from it flow the springs of life.

We don't have to wait for 14:8 to be fulfilled... Our access to the rivers of Living water is a present day reality. Christ made that abundantly clear.
You're exactly right bec Joh 7:37-38 has absolutely nothing to do with Zec chapter 14.
 
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Andrewn

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So, again, from your point of view, the resurrection of the dead in Christ is Past, and ongoing? Whatever you call this "rising" of the dead in Christ, when do you say it took place and what scripture can you point to for support for the timing?
You're probably familiar with several verses saying that Christians die with Christ in baptism and are raised again. Also, the Lord said, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die."

This is the 1st resurrection that believers partake in. It is, indeed, past and ongoing. I agree w/ @sovereigngrace that it allows the souls of God's people to rise to paradise during the intermediate state.
 
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DavidPT

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Remember, God spoke to the prophets in visions/dreams/parables (numbers 12:6-8, hosea 12:10).

If Zechariah's vision/dream/parable is pointing to literal earthly Jerusalem, it contradicts the words of Jesus. Jesus literally stated a time was coming when people would no longer worship in Jerusalem associated with the law of moses.

Zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

Jesus 4:21 said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

So what Jerusalem is Zechariah's vision/dream/parable about? I would argue The heavenly Jerusalem.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering.

Additionally, the requirement of literally keeping the feast of booths contradicts the words of Paul, as Paul tells us it no one is to be judged in regards to festival keeping as they were only a shadow of Christ.


Zechariah 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

Colossians 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.

Thus, based on the NT, which reveals the old testament, a literal reading would be contradicting and inappropriate.


Let's start here. Wherever one places the events of verse 2 in Zechariah 14, obviously the events recorded in verses 16-19 are meaning post the events of verse 2. Some place the events of verse 2 with that of the events of 70 AD. Even though I disagree that the events of 70 AD are meant, let's suppose that they are. That would still place the fulfilling of verse 16-19 post the death and resurrection of Christ, no matter how you look at it. Yet it speaks of keeping the feast of tabernacles. If applying that to this age somehow, obviously one wouldn't be applying it in the literal sense. So if applying it to the next age instead, why would it have to be meaning in the literal sense there, but not have to be meaning in the literal sense if applying it in this age?

As to the Jerusalem meant in Zechariah 14:16-19, I take it to mean the new Jerusalem, the one that comes down from God out of heaven in Revelation 21. That only happens post the 2nd coming, and not in this age prior to the 2nd coming. You being Preterist, you might disagree with this last part. Plus what most of us are meaning by the 2nd coming would not be the same thing you would take a 2nd coming to be meaning. But even so, I trust you know what most of us are meaning by the 2nd coming, regardless.

So, even if Zechariah 14:16 is meaning post the 2nd coming, that doesn't mean it has to literally involve animal sacrificing related to the actual feast when it was performed in ancient times, anymore than it would have to mean that if the fulfilling of verses 16-19 are meaning in this age instead. Either way it is still going to be after the death and resurrection of Christ when the events recorded in Zechariah 14:16-19 are meant.
 
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sovereigngrace

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So, again, from your point of view, the resurrection of the dead in Christ is Past, and ongoing?

Whatever you call this "rising" of the dead in Christ, when do you say it took place and what scripture can you point to for support for the timing?

It's not the "He led captivity captive" verse is it?
Because if so, it does not mean what you think it does, and doesn't support the view at all.

There are two pivotal resurrections spoken about in the NT. There is our initial spiritual resurrection "in Christ," upon salvation, where we are raised to newness of life. At conversion, the Christian dies to the desires, control and governance of the “old man” or the old nature, and enters into the new man – Christ. He loses all rights to self-rule and yields to the impulses and authority of the Holy Spirit, who’s office it is to conform us to the image of Christ.

What results from this great eternal transaction is our eventual physical resurrection, where we are delivered from this body of death, from corruption to incorruption, and transformed into the glorious likeness of Christ, when Jesus returns at the end.

Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

This passage is describing the result of our mystical union with Christ.

The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection - Christ's or the resurrection that occurs at the Second Coming? This is a pretty simply question.

Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in time.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in place.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in order.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in importance.

What many overlook the phrase "hath part." Whatever that refers to will seal this debate. The unfortunate thing for Premils is that it is present tense. So whatever resurrection it is speaking of, believers currently have their "part" in it. Whatever “the first resurrection” is, participation in it qualifies humans’ to escape the horrors of eternal punishment (the second death). In this experience Christians identify with Christ’s victorious resurrection.

The Greek for “that hath part” is echo méros. The Greek verb echo correctly interpreted “that hath” in the King James Version is written in the present tense and in the active voice. Therefore, we can view the relevance and vitality of “the first resurrection” as being both current and ongoing. Christ’s victory over death is not simply a past event that has no active bearing upon what we are today; it is ongoing reality in the lives of God’s people. The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

When we get saved we become one with Jesus Christ spiritually. We identify with Christ and the victory He won over sin, death and the grave. As He died, was buried and conquered death, we also have our “part” in His success.

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

The word "overcometh" here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

Anything that we are, or anything that we possess, that is of any spiritual worth, emanates solely from what Christ has done for us and how we partake in that, “For in him we live, and move, and have our being” (Acts 17:28). The fact is, “we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones” (Ephesians 5:30). This is indeed a deep spiritual mystery. Christ is our representative head who has obtained victory over sin, death, condemnation, guilt, fear, Satan and every other enemy of our soul. Romans 11:36 says, “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever.”

Hebrews 3:14 records of those that are saved, “we are made partakers of Christ.” Peter says of us now, that we are “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4).

We cannot comprehend the authority of the child of God outside of this spiritual union, because without this oneness we are powerless. Christ is our representative head who has obtained victory over sin, death, condemnation, guilt fear, Satan and every other enemy of our soul. We reign because He reigns. We exercise authority because He exercises authority, at the right hand of majesty on high.

Romans 5:18-19 says, “as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

The awful “condemnation” that afflicts every man since the fall through inherited sin is completely removed “in Christ” through the new birth experience. Through salvation the penitent is fully justified and “made righteous” in the eyes of God. He is taken instantly from spiritual death into spiritual life by being raised from a horrible spiritual grave.

Romans 6:4 says, “we are buried with him by baptism into death.”

Colossians 2:12 agrees, saying, we are “Buried with him in baptism.”

Romans 6:4 says, “like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Colossians 2:12 again concurs, saying, ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

The new birth that results, which is described in Romans 6:4 as a “newness of life,” is expressly associated with, and likened to, the resurrection of Christ. The old man dies and the new man rises in supernatural resurrection power. The exact wording reads, “like (or) hoósper (or) ‘exactly like’ as Christ was raised up from the dead … hoútoos (or) ‘in like manner’ (or) ‘on this fashion’ we also should walk in newness of life.”

This resurrection comes through Christ alone. That’s why Jesus said, in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."
 
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mkgal1

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But what about this part though, in that same verse----and I saw the souls of them---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands? How could their martyrdom not have occurred during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13? And if it did occur during the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, how is it then logical to also place the 42 month reign of the beast in Revelation 13, after the thousand years if Revelation 20:4 is already placing it before the thousand years?
I'm not sure if this will be helpful to you or not.......but I just learned of a minority view of the millennium. It's one held by J. Stuart Russell, the author of The Parousia (1816-1895), Duncan McKenzie (and others) where it's believed that the Millennium began in 70 AD and continues until now. It's called "premillennial preterism" because it is a position that holds that Christ Jesus returned right before the millennium - but also "postribulational millennialism" because it's after the tribulation. This view of the millennium is still symbolic (like the amillennium view) and not a literal thousand years.....and is still ongoing. The difference is only in the point of beginning. Duncan McKenzie has made his argument for this framework here: The Postribulational (i.e. post AD 70) Beginning of the Millennium | Prophecy and History

Quoting Duncan McKenzie:
Notice the sequence in Revelation 19-20. The individual beast and false prophet (the one who made people take the mark of the beast, Rev. 13:11-18) are captured at the Second Coming in chapter 19 and put in the lake of fire. Satan is then taken and thrown in the abyss as the kingdom is established in chapter 20. Those who had lost their lives for not taking the mark of the beast (cf. Rev. 19:20; 13:15-16) are then resurrected in Revelation 20:4 at the beginning of the millennium. God was letting His first century audience know that the one who was faithful to Him to the point of death (cf. Rev. 2:10-11) would still get to participate in the soon coming millennial reign (Rev. 2:25-27; 3:21).​

Notice the reference to the mark of the beast as a past event in both chapter 19 and 20. Revelation 20 is a continuation of the AD 70 narrative of the Second Coming, not a recapitulation to AD 30.

The same sequence that is shown in Daniel is shown in Revelation. 1. The Antichrist (the individual beast) overcomes the saints (Rev. 13:5-7). 2. He is defeated by the coming of God (Rev. 19:11-21). 3. The saints then possess the kingdom as the millennium begins (Rev. 20:4). This is a pre-millennial sequence; the Second Coming happens right before God’s people possess the kingdom of God. This was James Stuart Russell’s position; he considered any attempts to fit the millennium in before AD 70 to be “violent and unnatural.” [J.S. Russell, The Parousia (Baker, 1999), 514]. It is at the AD 70 coming of God that the saints inherited the kingdom. This explains why one of the groups that come alive at the beginning of the millennium consists of believers who had been killed for not taking the mark of the beast. The millennium began right after the great tribulation at the AD 70 Second Coming, not at AD 30. Again, it was at the coming of God (what the NT will show as the Second Coming) that God’s people possessed the kingdom of God (Dan. 7:21-22; cf. Rev. 19:11-20:4).

Now a full preterist can not accept what I have written here, at least not if he or she wants to stay a 100% full preterist. Full preterism necessitates that all Bible prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70. Thus full preterists have to reject an AD 70 beginning to the millennium; if the millennium did begin at AD 70 it means there is still prophecy yet to be fulfilled (e.g. Satan’s loosing from the abyss at the end of the millennium, Rev. 20:7-10). Full preterists are left with a choice of either accepting what I am saying about an AD 70 beginning of the millennium (which is not going to happen) or attempt to separate the millennial kingdom (which they see as being from around AD 26-30 to sometime before AD 70) from the saints possessing the kingdom at the AD 70 Second Coming (Dan. 7:21-22). Most full preterists (wanting to stay card carrying full prets.) will attempt the latter option (differentiating the beginning of the millennium from the saints possessing the kingdom at the AD 70 Second Coming). Again if a full preterist acknowledges the start of the millennium as being the same as the AD 70 coming of the kingdom (cf. Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4), then they violate their basic premise of all prophecy fulfilled by AD 70.

Comparing Daniel 7 with Revelation 20, it is impossible to make a legitimate case that the AD 70 establishment of the kingdom of God of Daniel 7 (vv. 19-27) and the millennium of Revelation 20 are speaking of two different reigns. Of the AD 70 establishment of the kingdom, Daniel 7:9-10 (NRSV) reads, [A] “As I watched, thrones were set in place… The court sat in judgment” (brackets mine). Of the millennium, Revelation 20:4 (NRSV) reads, [A] “Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge.” I don’t see how one can make these to be two separate events, the first starting at AD 70 the second supposedly starting at AD 30. …The Postribulational (i.e. post AD 70) Beginning of the Millennium | Prophecy and History
 
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mkgal1

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As to the Jerusalem meant in Zechariah 14:16-19, I take it to mean the new Jerusalem, the one that comes down from God out of heaven in Revelation 21. That only happens post the 2nd coming, and not in this age prior to the 2nd coming. You being Preterist, you might disagree with this last part. Plus what most of us are meaning by the 2nd coming would not be the same thing you would take a 2nd coming to be meaning. But even so, I trust you know what most of us are meaning by the 2nd coming, regardless.
You're correct that your idea of "Second Coming" is different than what preterists believe - and you also are (I believe) correct in tying together the New Jerusalem and that Coming of God.

Preterists believe the New Jerusalem is where we meet with God on the spiritual level. IOW......it's where we experience the presence of God with us. As Claninja pointed out already.....it goes back to what Jesus had said to the Samaritan woman about, in her future, there was soon to be an hour coming where people will no longer go to earthly Jerusalem in order to worship:

John 4:21 ~ Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism <-----Claninja's post here

"New Jerusalem"...."heavenly Jerusalem".......the New Covenant.....and the New Heavens and New Earth (I personally believe) are ALL tied together. It's the change in how we, as the People of God, "dwell with Christ" in a new way that was ushered in at His first advent. We no longer meet with God in a tent as the ancient Israelites did - through the High Priest. Christ Jesus is now our High Priest - and He grants access to God to all who desire to worship Him.

Hebrews 12:18-22 ~ For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom, and storm; and to the sound of a trumpet, and to a voice of words which those having heard excused themselves, asking the word not to be addressed to them. For they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” The sight was so terrifying that even Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.” Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
 
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Let's start here. Wherever one places the events of verse 2 in Zechariah 14, obviously the events recorded in verses 16-19 are meaning post the events of verse 2. Some place the events of verse 2 with that of the events of 70 AD. Even though I disagree that the events of 70 AD are meant, let's suppose that they are.

While it is possible that it could refer to 70ad, and some Biblical scholars believe so, it could refer to the numerous other times that nations gathered against Jerusalem to to battle after this prophecy was given: Antichus IV (168 bc), Pompeii's siege (63 BC), Herod's siege (37bc), etc......

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city.


1.) "The spoil is taken and divided". I believe this points to the cross:
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.

This passage in Isaiah is specifically about Christ's death, which results in him dividing the spoils.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will allot Him a portion with the great, and He will divide the spoils with the strong

Christ bound the strongman and divided his spoils at his first coming.
Luke 11:22 But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted, and then he divides up his spoils.

2.) Jesus feet were literally on the Mount of olives upon his ascension.
Zechariah 14:4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Acts 1:9 After He had said this, they watched as He was taken up, and a cloud hid Him from their sight.

3.) what resulted from Jesus ascension to the Father? the coming of the Spirit as clearly stated by the NT.

Zechariah 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sead and half of them to the western sea.

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given,e because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

As to the Jerusalem meant in Zechariah 14:16-19, I take it to mean the new Jerusalem, the one that comes down from God out of heaven in Revelation 21. That only happens post the 2nd coming, and not in this age prior to the 2nd coming. You being Preterist, you might disagree with this last part. Plus what most of us are meaning by the 2nd coming would not be the same thing you would take a 2nd coming to be meaning. But even so, I trust you know what most of us are meaning by the 2nd coming, regardless.

I'm glad we can find some common ground, I agree it is the new Jerusalem.

I would argue the heavenly Jerusalem = those of the body of Christ under the new covenant.

Paul correlates the heavenly Jerusalem with the new covenant in Galatians 4

Galatians 4:2-26 These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.

The author of Hebrews states we have already come to the heavenly Jerusalem.

Hebrews 12:22 Instead, you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to myriads of angels

Using scripture to interpret scripture we can see the Body of Christ is the New Jerusalem:

1.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are the Bride of the lamb
Revelation 20:9-10 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.

2.)Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are built on the foundations of the prophets
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone

3.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are where God dwells with his people.
Revelation 21:3 Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God

Ephesians 2:21 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

So, even if Zechariah 14:16 is meaning post the 2nd coming, that doesn't mean it has to literally involve animal sacrificing related to the actual feast when it was performed in ancient times, anymore than it would have to mean that if the fulfilling of verses 16-19 are meaning in this age instead. Either way it is still going to be after the death and resurrection of Christ when the events recorded in Zechariah 14:16-19 are meant.

I'm glad we can agree that it doesn't involve literal sacrificing, as that was only a shadow of Christ's ultimate sacrifice. Thus we seem to agree that this vision/parable/dream is using the earthly picture of animal sacrifices to point to Christ's ultimate sacrifice.
 
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parousia70

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You're exactly right bec Joh 7:37-38 has absolutely nothing to do with Zec chapter 14.

So are the living waters currently available to all who thirst today Inferior to the future Living waters of Zechariah 14:8, or just different?
 
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