Daniel's 70th week

[Arnold_Fishman]

My first post—thank you for having me participate. I just listened to a well known reformed evangelical teacher in South Carolina preach on Daniel 9.24-27 regarding the 70 weeks. He dogmatically says that the numerics (7, 62, 69, 70) are representational and not specific to real years or time periods—I disagree with that severe interpretation.

He also stated emphatically that the entire set of verses relate to Jesus and that all mentions of the word "he" should be interpreted as Jesus. He doesnt give reasons for that but so be it. For the most part I think this is correct. He also mentions that that the "desolations" verses in Daniel refer only to AD 70 and uses Matt 24 to support this. However i dont believe he is a preterist. Unfortunately in his sermon he dogmatically forgot to mention the second half of verse 27 which says: "and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

Now i dont see how you can make the "he" in verse 27 become Jesus. Can anyone piece together a rational argument that justifies his position? thanks

 

[Ricky M]

I won't try to justify his position, but I'll share mine:

God's word is eternal, one manifestation thereof does not render it moot.

God offered the Messiah to the Jews, and they rejected Him. And they suffered their tribulation for it in 70 AD.

God then offered the Christ to the world, and the world is rejecting Him. Thus the world will suffer it's tribulation soon.

It's not an either/or situation.

 

[Al Touthentop]

My first post—thank you for having me participate. I just listened to a well known reformed evangelical teacher in South Carolina preach on Daniel 9.24-27 regarding the 70 weeks. He dogmatically says that the numerics (7, 62, 69, 70) are representational and not specific to real years or time periods—I disagree with that severe interpretation.

He also stated emphatically that the entire set of verses relate to Jesus and that all mentions of the word "he" should be interpreted as Jesus. He doesnt give reasons for that but so be it. For the most part I think this is correct. He also mentions that that the "desolations" verses in Daniel refer only to AD 70 and uses Matt 24 to support this. However i dont believe he is a preterist. Unfortunately in his sermon he dogmatically forgot to mention the second half of verse 27 which says: "and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

Now i dont see how you can make the "he" in verse 27 become Jesus. Can anyone piece together a rational argument that justifies his position? thanks

It seems you've misquoted or your translation is odd.

"But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering."

About 3/12 years into the 70th week, Jesus was crucified, bring an end to the effectiveness of animal sacrifices. They continued on but as Paul said in Hebrews, they could no longer take away sins.

Each week was 7 years.

 

[DavidPT]

My first post—thank you for having me participate. I just listened to a well known reformed evangelical teacher in South Carolina preach on Daniel 9.24-27 regarding the 70 weeks. He dogmatically says that the numerics (7, 62, 69, 70) are representational and not specific to real years or time periods—I disagree with that severe interpretation.

He also stated emphatically that the entire set of verses relate to Jesus and that all mentions of the word "he" should be interpreted as Jesus. He doesnt give reasons for that but so be it. For the most part I think this is correct. He also mentions that that the "desolations" verses in Daniel refer only to AD 70 and uses Matt 24 to support this. However i dont believe he is a preterist. Unfortunately in his sermon he dogmatically forgot to mention the second half of verse 27 which says: "and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

Now i dont see how you can make the "he" in verse 27 become Jesus. Can anyone piece together a rational argument that justifies his position? thanks

Let's start before verse 27 in order to try and determine the pronouns in verse 27.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Verse 27 starts out like such---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. In order to determine who the pronoun is referring to, we have to look in verse 26 and see who the last person mentioned was.

The last person mentioned is meaning this person---the prince that shall come. That means we are to understand verse 27 like such.

the prince that shall come shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week the prince that shall come shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations the prince that shall come shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Obviously this can't be meaning Jesus. We can know that from this part---and for the overspreading of abominations the prince that shall come shall make it desolate

It would be ludicrous to associate abominations with that of Jesus, yet some still do, regardless. I will never understand why though.

 

[mmksparbud]

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I agree with Al above---Only God makes covenenats, Jesus was crucified in the midst of the week---and only Jesus can put an end to the sacrificial system. No man can do that. The sacrficies did go on by the priests until the temople was destroyed---but their value ended with the sacrifice of Jesus---the Sacrficial Lamb.

 

[DavidPT]

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

I agree with Al above---Only God makes covenenats, Jesus was crucified in the midst of the week---and only Jesus can put an end to the sacrificial system. No man can do that. The sacrficies did go on by the priests until the temople was destroyed---but their value ended with the sacrifice of Jesus---the Sacrficial Lamb.

Your interpretation contradicts reality. The text says this---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. If that is meaning Jesus, then why didn't those things cease in the midst of the week exactly like the text indicates? Clearly sacrificing in the temple continued for at least another 40 years after Christ had died.

 

[Arnold_Fishman]

These are some good thoughts. Many thanks for sharing. I will ponder them.

I have to mention, that his forum website host just served me up a bunch of near inappropriate contentographic advertising images that i had to use Ad block on to remove them. Seriously not good! Sorry, but Christian Forum, i am not coming here to feast my eyes on inappropriate contentography.

 

[DavidPT]

These are some good thoughts. Many thanks for sharing. I will ponder them.

I have to mention, that his forum website host just served me up a bunch of near inappropriate contentographic advertising images that i had to use Ad block on to remove them. Seriously not good! Sorry, but Christian Forum, i am not coming here to feast my eyes on inappropriate contentography.

I don't know about things like that since I never see a single ad ever. You know why? Because I have scripting turned off in my browser.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Your interpretation contradicts reality. The text says this---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. If that is meaning Jesus, then why didn't those things cease in the midst of the week exactly like the text indicates? Clearly sacrificing in the temple continued for at least another 40 years after Christ had died.

Jesus fulfilled the sanctuary law of worship by his death/sacrifice/blood on the cross. The same folks that did not recognize him as the messiah continued with the tradition of the animal sacrifice for their sins until the temple was destroyed in 70 ad however their sins were not forgiven by their sacrifices.

 

[DavidPT]

Jesus fulfilled the sanctuary law of worship by his death/sacrifice/blood on the cross. The same folks that did not recognize him as the messiah continued with the tradition of the animal sacrifice for their sins until the temple was destroyed in 70 ad however their sins were not forgiven by their sacrifices.

I fully agree that Christ's death and resurrection put an end to sacrificing in the temple, regardless that some continued sacrificing anyway. I just don't see Daniel 9:27 referring to that. Why don't I? Simple. That verse mentions abominations and desolation, none of which had a thing to do with Christ's death and resurrection at the time. It is ludicrous, that if verse 27 is about Christ, that in that same context abominations and desolation are mentioned.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

I fully agree that Christ's death and resurrection put an end to sacrificing in the temple, regardless that some continued sacrificing anyway. I just don't see Daniel 9:27 referring to that. Why don't I? Simple. That verse mentions abominations and desolation, none of which had a thing to do with Christ's death and resurrection at the time. It is ludicrous, that if verse 27 is about Christ, that in that same context abominations and desolation are mentioned.

Matthew 23:37-39 King James Version (KJV)
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Leviticus 18:26 30
Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.

 

[DavidPT]

Matthew 23:37-39 King James Version (KJV)
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Leviticus 18:26 30
Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.

Every single thing mentioned in Daniel 9:27 occurs in that same 70th week. That means there is only a 7 year window in view in that verse. Anything outside that 7 year window couldn't possibly have anything to do with the 70th week. Therefore I don't see it fitting with what you submitted.

 

[mmksparbud]

Your interpretation contradicts reality. The text says this---and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. If that is meaning Jesus, then why didn't those things cease in the midst of the week exactly like the text indicates? Clearly sacrificing in the temple continued for at least another 40 years after Christ had died.

I already answered that---I said the sacrifices continued for the priests did not believe in Him nor understand---they continued until the temple was destroyed----but Jesus put an end to the sacrifices with His death!! They no longer held any value for He was the Sacrificial Lamb. No man can declare that something God has instituted is to be done away with. Only God can do that. It is the death of Jesus that ended the sacrifices, not the destroying of the temple. Had God wanted them to continue, they would have gone on despite the destruction of the temple. The veil in the temple was torn apart at His death, from top to bottom---the curtains were 30 feet tall.

Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

The veil separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place---now everyone could see in---it was the end of the system. From the death of Christ, Jesus became our High Priest, we go through Him now, not the blood of animals.

Heb_10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

 

[mmksparbud]

I fully agree that Christ's death and resurrection put an end to sacrificing in the temple, regardless that some continued sacrificing anyway. I just don't see Daniel 9:27 referring to that. Why don't I? Simple. That verse mentions abominations and desolation, none of which had a thing to do with Christ's death and resurrection at the time. It is ludicrous, that if verse 27 is about Christ, that in that same context abominations and desolation are mentioned.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

He causes the sacrifice to cease---for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate---because of the abominations done in His temple, and on His body---He will also make the temple desolate---(destroy it).

 

[claninja]

Every single thing mentioned in Daniel 9:27 occurs in that same 70th week. That means there is only a 7 year window in view in that verse. Anything outside that 7 year window couldn't possibly have anything to do with the 70th week. Therefore I don't see it fitting with what you submitted.

The 70 week clearly prophesies of and finds its fulfillment in the new covenant and gospel
Daniel 9:24 “Seventy sevens are decreed about your people and your holy city, 1.) to finish the transgression, 2.) to put an end to sin, 3.) and to atone for iniquity, 4.) to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5.) to seal both vision and prophet, 6.) and to anoint a most holy.

All 6 items find their fulfillment in the 70th week, with the death of Christ. For it is Christ who was cut off in the midst of the week in order that the sacrifice and offering would be ended.

Hebrews 10:8-9 In the passage above He says, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings You did not desire, nor did You delight in them” (although they are offered according to the law). Then He adds, “Here I am, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first to establish the second.

1.) finish transgression. God redeemed his people from the transgressions committed under the old covenant
Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

2.) put an end to sin. Christ put away sin by his sacrifice
Hebrews 9:26 But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

3.) atone for iniquity. Christ is our high priest and atones for our sins.
Hebrews 2:17 or this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people.

4.) Bring in everlasting righteous. The righteous standards of God have forever been fulfilled in those who are in Christ.
Romans 8:3-4 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5.) Sealing vision and prophet. Christ fulfilled everything written about him in the Law, prophets, and psalms.
Luke 24:44 Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”

6.) annoint the most Holy. Christ is the anointed most Holy.
Acts 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

 

[Douggg]

My first post—thank you for having me participate. I just listened to a well known reformed evangelical teacher in South Carolina preach on Daniel 9.24-27 regarding the 70 weeks. He dogmatically says that the numerics (7, 62, 69, 70) are representational and not specific to real years or time periods—I disagree with that severe interpretation.

He also stated emphatically that the entire set of verses relate to Jesus and that all mentions of the word "he" should be interpreted as Jesus. He doesnt give reasons for that but so be it. For the most part I think this is correct. He also mentions that that the "desolations" verses in Daniel refer only to AD 70 and uses Matt 24 to support this. However i dont believe he is a preterist. Unfortunately in his sermon he dogmatically forgot to mention the second half of verse 27 which says: "and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."

Now i dont see how you can make the "he" in verse 27 become Jesus. Can anyone piece together a rational argument that justifies his position? thanks

Welcome to forum, Arnold.

The teacher is stating a common but erroneous view of Daniel 9 regarding the "he".

The confirmation of the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years will be confirmed by the Antichrist person, as leader of Israel. It will not be a peace treaty, which is also a popular misconception.

Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 made it a requirement for all future leaders of Israel to (in essence) confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year cycle.

It will be a big speech from the temple mount following Gog/Magog.

Here is a chart I made that you might find helpful.

 

[Christian Gedge]

My first post—thank you for having me participate. I just listened to a well known reformed evangelical teacher in South Carolina preach on Daniel 9.24-27 regarding the 70 weeks. He dogmatically says that the numerics (7, 62, 69, 70) are representational and not specific to real years or time periods—I disagree with that severe interpretation.

He is wrong! The 70 weeks blocks of 7 years were the Sabbatical year cycle, otherwise known as 'Shemittah.'

He also stated emphatically that the entire set of verses relate to Jesus and that all mentions of the word "he" should be interpreted as Jesus. He doesnt give reasons for that but so be it. For the most part I think this is correct.

There are 2 (not one) individuals in the prophecy. Here is the text in the NKJVersion with my notes inserted in color.

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)​

 

[Douggg]

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for himself; and the people (Roman troops in ad 70) of the prince who is to come (Titus, a roman general and prince) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined.

He (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week (3½ yrs after his revealing) shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (temple curtain torn) And on the wing of abominations (ongoing sacrifice an abomination) shall be one who makes desolate, (Titus destroys temple) even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate. (judgement on Jerusalem)

Although Titus was involved in the destruction of the temple and city in 70ad, unless the prince who shall come is the He (Anti-messiah, messiah yes, but Anti-messiah), there is no functional reason for Titus in Daniel 9:26.

Titus was the leader of the Romans - so what? What else is there about Titus in Daniel 9 for the prince who shall come being him? Nothing. Titus has no functional reason to be in Daniel 9.

It is not Titus. The prince who shall come is the little horn person, who after Gog/Magog, the Jews will make the monumental mistake of thinking he is the messiah, and he will be anointed the King of Israel (Anti-messiah) by the false prophet.

Mark 15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

Jesus - the rightful Christ(messiah) the King of Israel.

Prince who shall come, the He of Daniel 9:27 - the coming in his own name (Anti)Christ(messiah) the King of Israel.
________________________________________________________

Gedge, go to any Jewish religious website and you will find that they are looking for the "real" messiah (their words), someone other than Jesus. Someone to be anointed the King of Israel, by a known to be prophet.

It is not hard to see what is going to happen.

 

[DavidPT]

Titus has no functional reason to be in Daniel 9.

Of course he doesn't. The text in Daniel 9:25-27 is only concerned with these 70 weeks in particular. None of it is focusing on anything outside of these 70 weeks. But trying to convince some folks of that is pretty much impossible. Oh well, can't win them all.

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

IMO----and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined---belongs with this part---And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


IOW, the former occurs during the latter, during the 70th week. After verse 27 runs it's course, we are then in the time of the 2nd coming and not still in the time of the first century instead.

 

[Ricky M]

These are some good thoughts. Many thanks for sharing. I will ponder them.

I have to mention, that his forum website host just served me up a bunch of near inappropriate contentographic advertising images that i had to use Ad block on to remove them. Seriously not good! Sorry, but Christian Forum, i am not coming here to feast my eyes on inappropriate contentography.

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