LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

[He is the way]

Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

(New Testament | John 17:22)

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

 

[He is the way]

But how, exactly (by what means) do you believe that "oneness" (Communion) with the Father and the Son is received by us? Furthermore, what is this Communion like? Is Communion with God a means to some other end, or does it constitute the end in itself?

When Jesus perfects those who LOVE Him they can be one with Him and the Father as They are one. And the glory that the Father gave to Him He will give to them. Then they can be called to the high calling of God:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

(New Testament | Philippians 3:12 - 15)

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[mmksparbud]

(New Testament | John 17:22)

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

We will have the same glorified human body as Jesus--- but we can not share His divinity. Again, that is why we are adopted into being joint heirs with Jesus---but He is not adopted. He has no need of it.

 

[truefiction1]

When Jesus perfects those who LOVE Him they can be one with Him and the Father as They are one. And the glory that the Father gave to Him He will give to them. Then they can be called to the high calling of God:

(New Testament | John 17:21 - 23)

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

(New Testament | Philippians 3:12 - 15)

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

How does Christ go about perfecting those Who Love Him? That is to say, how does God accomplish this?

 

[He is the way]

How does Christ go about perfecting those Who Love Him? That is to say, how does God accomplish this?

(New Testament | Matthew 19:25 - 29)

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27 ¶ Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

 

[Jamesone5]

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

like this?

Resources » Easton's Bible Dictionary » G » God
God
(A.S. and Dutch God; Dan. Gud; Ger. Gott), the name of the Divine Being. It is the rendering (1) of the Hebrew _'El_, from a word meaning to be strong; (2) of _'Eloah_, plural _'Elohim_. The singular form, _Eloah_, is used only in poetry. The plural form is more commonly used in all parts of the Bible, The Hebrew word Jehovah (q.v.), the only other word generally employed to denote the Supreme Being, is uniformly rendered in the Authorized Version by "LORD," printed in small capitals. The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible. There is nowhere any argument to prove it. He who disbelieves this truth is spoken of as one devoid of understanding (Ps. 14:1).

And, You probably did not notice that in verse 35 of what you quoted it tells us this:

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

But then the Mormons insist this: Jesus said that men are Gods and I will take His word for it.

 

[Rescued One]

Hebrews 10
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[truefiction1]

(New Testament | Matthew 19:25 - 29)

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
27 ¶ Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

What I asked you was: By what means does God enable men to be one with God and one with other men? Your answer does not answer the question of "how".
It seems to me that your idea about becoming one with God, is that it is more something that will happen, rather than something that presently happens? So how (that is, by what power) do you think that God will bring this about?

 

[Jamesone5]

It is most likely a gross misunderstanding of John 10:34, wherein Jesus references Psalm 82, which says in part "I have said, Ye are Gods".

Of course, as always if we look at it in its wider context, it doesn't support Mormonism at all, and actually makes quite the opposite point than the one Mormons want it to make.

22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon's porch. 24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one." 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him."

+++

In the bolded portion, we get the context in which Jesus invokes the Psalm: to show the Jews who wanted to stone Him that there is precedent in the scriptures for declaring a man to be God, and that He has proven Himself to be so. It was not to say "You are gods, end of story", as though He was simply recalling the verse a propo of nothing. Importantly, the Jews of that time understood Jesus to be making a blasphemous claim about Himself in particular by calling Himself the Son of God, as He explicitly says He has done in verse 36. It is not as though He would've been the first ever to recite that Psalm, after all; rather, the problem for the Mormon invocation of this verse to support their doctrine is that it is understood by all involved to be Jesus claiming that about Himself in a way that goes beyond what any one person could say and remain not a blasphemer, according to first-century Jewish theological and exegetical standards.

Basically, Jesus' theological claim to being the Son of God reflects a fundamentally different reality than does that title when it is found attached to any other people or person. Were that not the case, the Jews would not have sought to stone Him in the first place, just as they didn't stone their own before Him for simply reading or recalling the Psalm in question. So rather than 'proving' that we are all Gods because Jesus said so in the Bible, the full context shows that when Jesus says so about Himself, it means something entirely different. He knows that, His audience (the Jews who were wanting to stone Him) know that, and we know that.

Mormons, unfortunately, don't know that. So they think it means something it does not mean.

(I know you know all this, friend; I write it mainly to try to get the Mormons here to think a bit deeper about what they are presenting as evidence, rather than going on word-search hunts for particular phrases regardless of what they actually mean, as appears to be the case with everything He Is The Way posts.)

FYI--All more modern English translations of the Bible use the uncapitalized gods when referring to men and the capital God when referring to the One, True God. Even the verse you quoted followed that rule. I believe that rule is used to reflect and over-all purity of the Word as I have found.

 

[He is the way]

like this?

Resources » Easton's Bible Dictionary » G » God
God
(A.S. and Dutch God; Dan. Gud; Ger. Gott), the name of the Divine Being. It is the rendering (1) of the Hebrew _'El_, from a word meaning to be strong; (2) of _'Eloah_, plural _'Elohim_. The singular form, _Eloah_, is used only in poetry. The plural form is more commonly used in all parts of the Bible, The Hebrew word Jehovah (q.v.), the only other word generally employed to denote the Supreme Being, is uniformly rendered in the Authorized Version by "LORD," printed in small capitals. The existence of God is taken for granted in the Bible. There is nowhere any argument to prove it. He who disbelieves this truth is spoken of as one devoid of understanding (Ps. 14:1).

And, You probably did not notice that in verse 35 of what you quoted it tells us this:

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

But then the Mormons insist this: Jesus said that men are Gods and I will take His word for it.

The original manuscript of the Bible had no capitalization.

 

[Jamesone5]

The original manuscript of the Bible had no capitalization.

It was written in Hebrew and Greek, so?

 

[He is the way]

What I asked you was: By what means does God enable men to be one with God and one with other men? Your answer does not answer the question of "how".
It seems to me that your idea about becoming one with God, is that it is more something that will happen, rather than something that presently happens? So how (that is, by what power) do you think that God will bring this about?

God has the power to resurrect men from the dead. Through the atonement, Jesus Christ has the power to perfect us so we can be one with God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

 

[He is the way]

It was written in Hebrew and Greek, so?

The Old Testament is in Hebrew and the New Testament was in Greek. The New Testament clarifies the meaning of the Old Testament. The translators decided what they wanted to capitalize and what they didn't want to capitalize. I look at the context of what Jesus was saying.

 

[dzheremi]

I look at the context of what Jesus was saying.

I see...

You wanna address the context presented in #281 of the verse you originally presented out of context, then?

 

[Jamesone5]

The Old Testament is in Hebrew and the New Testament was in Greek. The New Testament clarifies the meaning of the Old Testament. The translators decided what they wanted to capitalize and what they didn't want to capitalize. I look at the context of what Jesus was saying.

You seem to lack on the Wisdom in which the Bible was translated and transmitted. A good source on that would be Josh McDowell's book "New Evidence that demands a Verdict".

The "translators" did not decide -, but GOD through the Holy Spirit decided how best to preserve what was to be written in the language the Word was translated to.---stated penalties for changings His Word and the meanings, by the way

You Mormons do not TRUST Christ, Who you otherwise tell us you obey.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

 

[mmksparbud]

God has the power to resurrect men from the dead. Through the atonement, Jesus Christ has the power to perfect us so we can be one with God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

You seem to infer that the power spoken of is physical and not spiritual. We are to be spiritually at one with God---mentally- you all take everything to be physical. There will come a day when we will be resurrected and our physical bodies will be glorified, as Jesus body is---there is nothing to say we will be physically transformed into Gods---can't happen. We do not have the divinity you think we do. We are not actually, physically, the spirit children of God, not even Jesus is that---Jesus was one with God from everlasting, He is not the product of the Father and some wife of His. He is God. We never were. That is why we must be adopted---but Jesus is not. We are created beings, and, like Lucifer, you want to be God---he is a created being and can not be God, no matter how badly he wants it. You have bought the punch that JS sold through Satan. No created being can ever be God---

Look---just for argument's sake---let's say that your version is right, we are the literal offspring of God and a wife (God, forgiver me---just saying if)----we would still have been a creation of God. We would have had a beginning. Jesus never had a beginning like that---always was God with God---you all can not seem to grasp your heads around that. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one, in a way we can not be. Whether physically born of Him and a wife---or not---we are not and never will be, physically one with the Father, Son or Holy Ghost---only spiritually, mentally--- Jesus became human, but retained His divinity. We have no divinity to begin with. And we were never His "spirit children" either! That is a statement straight from the heart of Satan. In no way shape or form have we a divine drop of anything in us other than we are created in His "IMAGE"--HIS LIKENESS-- Which is no different than Ken and Barbie are made in our image---they are as far apart from actually being us as we are from actually being of God physically!

 

[He is the way]

I see...

You wanna address the context presented in #281 of the verse you originally presented out of context, then?

I nave addressed this, Jesus said "ye are Gods" the scripture can not be broken.

 

[dzheremi]

I nave addressed this, Jesus said "ye are Gods" the scripture can not be broken.

Where did you address it? I don't recall seeing it, but I'd love to read it if you wouldn't mind giving me a post # or link.

 

[He is the way]

You seem to lack on the Wisdom in which the Bible was translated and transmitted. A good source on that would be Josh McDowell's book "New Evidence that demands a Verdict".

The "translators" did not decide -, but GOD through the Holy Spirit decided how best to preserve what was to be written in the language the Word was translated to.---stated penalties for changings His Word and the meanings, by the way

You Mormons do not TRUST Christ, Who you otherwise tell us you obey.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

We do trust Jesus Christ and God's true prophets.

(New Testament | Ephesians 3:19)

19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[dzheremi]

FYI--All more modern English translations of the Bible use the uncapitalized gods when referring to men and the capital God when referring to the One, True God. Even the verse you quoted followed that rule. I believe that rule is used to reflect and over-all purity of the Word as I have found.

Thanks for the reminder, my friend. I try to stay on top of this kind of thing, but I'm not perfect. I will go back and edit the post accordingly.