Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

[BobRyan]

Faulty logic again. "Without conditions or limits" does not translate to "randomly". .

Indeed it does - perfectly arbitrary... totally random is "without any sort of condition at all"

 

[Phil W]

So, Jesus is a leaky boat that needs to be rowed, bailed out, and navigated by men? Wow. Just wow.

You seemed to have missed the point that it is in our hands how we obey, or disobey, our Savior.
The disobedient will not be saved.

 

[Phil W]

God doesn't know who will be saved?

I think He can go to any spot in time and find out, but we don't know who will be saved, so should be doing our best to find our names still in the book of life on the day of judgement.

 

[renniks]

Apart from the new birth you follow Satan.

Everyone has the potential for following good or evil, otherwise God would be unjust to punish those who follow evil.

 

[renniks]

It is not the washing that causes --it is the washing that demonstrates.

You read it exactly backwards. It's because of this washing that God choose certain people.

 

[renniks]

Faulty logic again. "Without conditions or limits" does not translate to "randomly". Haha, if I was to use your way of writing, I would say, "if the dictionary meant randomly, it would have said "randomly".

Zero conditions for choosing= random choosing. If I choose people from a crowd, unconditionally, it would have to be totally random, otherwise, there would be conditions.

 

[Josheb]

Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.

The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all...

Let's examine this much of the op.

Long Version:
Reformed Arminianism as Arminius articulated it is not an "open system." Arminius did not assert the gospel was open to all because Arminius was an adherent of what we now cal "total depravity," the inability of the sinner to come to God for salvation in his or her own might. He articulated this position in several places but one of the most obvious is in Article VII of "Disputation 11 -On the Free Will of Man and Its Powers Respondent,"

"In this state [the sinful state], the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, 'Without me ye can do nothing.' St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: 'Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.' That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man."​

According to Arminius, the sinner's will has no power.
Arminius agrees with Augustine: without Christ the sinner can do nothing.​

Now many people may not correctly understand the concept or doctrine of total depravity. Total depravity does NOT mean humanity is so thoroughly depraved that it cannot to something not-depraved. No one in the entire history of Christendom has ever asserted total depravity as humanity incapable of good actions. Total depravity simply and only applies to salvation, and simply and solely means anyone in the state of sin has been rendered incapable of coming to God for salvation on his/her own. He does not, will not, and cannot come to God salvifically without God having first acted in that individual's life for the purpose of salvation.

In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing." St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: "Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing." That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.

Every leading soteriologist except Pelagius agrees. On this one point Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley and the Traditionalists agree.

Arminianism is therefore not an "open system" in the sense "the gospel is open to all." These theologians and their respective soteriological models held the gospel is open only to those for who God has made it open.


The question then is "At what point in the process of salvation does the sinner have any volitional power?" For Augustine, Luther, and Calvin it occurred only after conversion, only after God had brought the individual from death to life, having resuscitated or regenerated the dead so as to make it alive. Arminius, Wesley and the Traditionalists argued there was a point just prior to conversion wherein God liberated the individual suffciently enough for the still-sinner to choose or not-choose God.

And since the goal of this op is to establish "definitions," we ought to first address this matter of "open system."

Arminius was an adherent of total depravity.

If this is not understood correctly then everything built upon that error will also be erroneous and all those posts' contents will be arguing a straw man, a position never held by Arminius. I have posted the proof (not just evidence) so there can be no dispute on this one matter or total depravity and the availability of the gospel to those who sin has made incapable of hearing it, understanding it, receiving it, responding to it. Apart from Christ we can do nothing.

 

[Josheb]

Essentially it is the issue of whether the Gospel invitation is for all - and "whosoever will" or is it a "selection" system where God "Selects" some for salvation and simply fails to select others thus God is the only actor/determination and the choice of the lost person is not a factor that determines anything at all.

The arminian model is an open system... where the Gospel is open to all...

Let's examine this much of the op.

Short Version:
Reformed Arminianism as Arminius articulated it is not an "open system." Arminius did not assert the gospel was open to all because Arminius was an adherent of what we now cal "total depravity," the inability of the sinner to come to God for salvation in his or her own might. He articulated this position in several places but one of the most obvious is in Article VII of "Disputation 11 -On the Free Will of Man and Its Powers Respondent,"

"In this state [the sinful state], the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, 'Without me ye can do nothing.' St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: 'Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.' That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man."​

According to Arminius, the sinner's will has no power.
Arminius agrees with Augustine: without Christ the sinner can do nothing.​

Arminius was an adherent of total depravity.

There is no availability of the gospel to those who sin has made incapable of hearing it, understanding it, receiving it, responding to it. Apart from Christ we can do nothing.

 

[Phil W]

Let's examine this much of the op.

Long Version:
Reformed Arminianism as Arminius articulated it is not an "open system." Arminius not assert the gospel was open to all because Arminius was an adherent of what we now cal "total depravity," the inability of the sinner to come to God for salvation in his or her own might. He articulated this position in several places but one of the most obvious is in Article VII of "Disputation 11 -On the Free Will of Man and Its Powers Respondent,"

"In this state [the sinful state], the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, 'Without me ye can do nothing.' St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: 'Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing.' That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man."​

According to Arminius, the sinner's will has no power.
Arminius agrees with Augustine: without Christ the sinner can do nothing.​

Now many people may not correctly understand the concept or doctrine of total depravity. Total depravity does NOT mean humanity is so thoroughly depraved that it cannot to something not-depraved. No one in the entire history of Christendom has ever asserted total depravity as humanity incapable of good actions. Total depravity simply and only applies to salvation, and simply and solely means anyone in the state of sin has been rendered incapable of coming to God for salvation on his/her own. He does not, will not, and cannot come to God salvifically without God having first acted in that individual's life for the purpose of salvation.

In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing." St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: "Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing." That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.

Every leading soteriologist except Pelagius agrees. On this one point Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Wesley and the Traditionalists agree.

Arminianism is therefore not an "open system" in the sense "the gospel is open to all." These theologians and their respective soteriological models held the gospel is open only to those for who God has made it open.


The question then is "At what point in the process of salvation does the sinner have any volitional power?" For Augustine, Luther, and Calvin it occurred only after conversion, only after God had brought the individual from death to life, having resuscitated or regenerated the dead so as to make it alive. Arminius, Wesley and the Traditionalists argued there was a point just prior to conversion wherein God liberated the individual suffciently enough for the still-sinner to choose or not-choose God.

And since the goal of this op is to establish "definitions," we ought to first address this matter of "open system."

Arminius was an adherent of total depravity.

If this is not understood correctly then everything built upon that error will also be erroneous and all those posts' contents will be arguing a straw man, a position never held by Arminius. I have posted the proof (not just evidence) so there can be no dispute on this one matter or total depravity and the availability of the gospel to those who sin has made incapable of hearing it, understanding it, receiving it, responding to it. Apart from Christ we can do nothing.

Thank you very much for the "heads up".
I just can't buy the "no choice" position.
It makes it seem like God is picking who will, and perhaps more importantly, who won't be saved.

I'm going to investigate Pelagius.

 

[Dave L]

Everyone has the potential for following good or evil, otherwise God would be unjust to punish those who follow evil.

Adam proved our species is corrupt. This is why babies die in the womb.

 

[Dave L]

I think He can go to any spot in time and find out, but we don't know who will be saved, so should be doing our best to find our names still in the book of life on the day of judgement.

So he's not omniscient or perfect? But must continue learning?

 

[Dave L]

You seemed to have missed the point that it is in our hands how we obey, or disobey, our Savior.
The disobedient will not be saved.

= self-medicating salvation. You get God's glory and he gets practically none?

 

[Phil W]

So he's not omniscient or perfect? But must continue learning?

He is indeed omniscient and perfect.
But why can't He keep learning?
The point is that WE don't know where we will end up and should be doing everything in our power to insure we will be found worthy of eternal life at the great judgement.

 

[renniks]

Adam proved our species is corrupt. This is why babies die in the womb.

Huh? What does babies dying have to do with anything?
Of course we are corrupt. That's why we have to choose to accept Christ to make us pure.

 

[Dave L]

He is indeed omniscient and perfect.
But why can't He keep learning?
The point is that WE don't know where we will end up and should be doing everything in our power to insure we will be found worthy of eternal life at the great judgement.

= imperfect knowledge = not omniscient.

 

[Phil W]

= self-medicating salvation. You get God's glory and he gets practically none?

I get nothing.
If I obey Him I get what He has promised.
If I don't obey I also get what He promised...a lake of fire.
We have choices to make here on earth, and I intend to make the correct ones till I am called home.
To His glory.

 

[Phil W]

= imperfect knowledge = not omniscient.

Then I guess, according to you, the final judgement has already been made.

 

[Dave L]

Then I guess, according to you, the final judgement has already been made.

From before creation.

 

[Dave L]

I get nothing.
If I obey Him I get what He has promised.
If I don't obey I also get what He promised...a lake of fire.
We have choices to make here on earth, and I intend to make the correct ones till I am called home.
To His glory.

You obey in love because he saved you.

 

[Dave L]

Huh? What does babies dying have to do with anything?
Of course we are corrupt. That's why we have to choose to accept Christ to make us pure.

The wages of sin is death.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You seemed to have missed the point that it is in our hands how we obey, or disobey, our Savior.
The disobedient will not be saved.

I think that you inadvertently revealed what your *functional* savior is.