The fatal flaw of Universalism

[Saint Steven]

Heb. 3:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"

To understand why they will never enter His rest read Hebrews 3.

Hey, Charlie. Thanks for launching a topic on the greater hope.

The end of the chapter tells us who "they" are and what "my rest" is.
This has nothing to do with the greater hope.

Hebrews 3:16-19
Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

 

[Saint Steven]

When they do they have sealed their fate. I would like to draw your attention to a very important verse of scripture.

Rev. 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

What have the Universalists taken away from the words of the book of this prophecy, or from the entire Bible? They have taken away from any words such as eternal, everlasting, anything that presents a permanent place of punishment for those who have rejected Christ.

What did God say in Rev. 22:19 the punishment for such a thing will be?

Folks, this is as serious as false doctrine can get!

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie...
If anyone, it is the Damnationists that have taken away from the scroll (singular) of this prophecy. We are putting back what has been taken away by a biased translation.

Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

 

[RaymondG]

God hates an unequal measure. There's your explanation. Finite crimes cannot merit infinite punishment on any scale, as it would be infinitely unjust.

I would have to disagree with this notion. What is Just to man, may not be just to God.... For instance:

Jesus mentioned a parable in which workers who worked all day, received the same payment as the one who came in at the last hour. To man, this would be unjust......Even if we played advocate and say "well you agreed to it in the start and got what you agree to..." some would still say that the offering of the same total wage at the last hour, that was offered to the one at the beginning, was unjust.

Who here would be ok on a job where you work 8 hours and another works 1 hour, doing the same thing you do during the 8 , yet both received the same pay at the end? Would we feel it just? I think not.

I do not dismiss the Idea that all will be saved......Just think that using the human justice system, is an unwise way to promote it.

 

[FineLinen]

I would have to disagree with this notion. What is Just to man, may not be just to God.... For instance:

Jesus mentioned a parable in which workers who worked all day, received the same payment as the one who came in at the last hour. To man, this would be unjust......Even if we played advocate and say "well you agreed to it in the start and got what you agree to..." some would still say that the offering of the same total wage at the last hour, that was offered to the one at the beginning, was unjust.

Who here would be ok on a job where you work 8 hours and another works 1 hour, doing the same thing you do during the 8 , yet both received the same pay at the end? Would we feel it just? I think not.

I do not dismiss the Idea that all will be saved......Just think that using the human justice system, is an unwise way to promote it.

Dear Ray: God is the standard. The purpose of at-one-ment is to bring us into union with Him.

Not saved only: the Divine equation =

The many "made sinners" = the "many made righteous."

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

“Men are qualified for civil liberty, in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites; in proportion as their love to justice is above their rapacity; in proportion as their soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and presumption; in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things, that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.”

– Burke, letter to François-Louis-Thibaut de Menonville, 1791

 

[RaymondG]

Dear Ray: God is the standard. The purpose of at-one-ment is to bring us into union with Him.

Not saved only: the Divine equation =

The many "made sinners" = the "many made righteous."

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

This I can understand...... When we start to reason that God cant do this because it wouldnt be just....I cant.

God can do what he wants.....He can burn everyone alive forever.....And He can Give everyone Life eternal. His true plan can only be revealed when we remove our own thoughts about His plan with their associated emotions.

 

[Hillsage]

One cannot properly interpret Lk 12:10 without also taking into consideration its parallel passage in Matthew 12:32 where it states: Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
This verse further defines the verse in Luke by adding the caveat "either in the age or in the age to come." This age is the present church age. The age to come is the Millennial Age. Thus blasphemy of the Spirit is not forgivable in this present age or during the Millennial reign of Christ. It does not say forgiveness will never be available beyond the Millennium.

You do error even IF your opinion of the two ages you just mention are correct. Ephesians 2:7 was written in ‘your’ church age. And it even says there’s more than ‘your’ last Millennial age that follows.

Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Verse 8 then goes on to tell those who seek truth ‘no matter where it leads’, just exactly what “grace” He’s talking about. And that’s the grace which ‘saved you’ in this age.

 

[Der Alte]

Hey, Charlie. Thanks for launching a topic on the greater hope.
The end of the chapter tells us who "they" are and what "my rest" is.
This has nothing to do with the greater hope.
Hebrews 3:16-19
Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

What does never mean to God?

Heb. 3:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"​

 

[RaymondG]

What does never mean to God?

Heb. 3:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"​

Good question. Let me add some more:

-What does all mean to God?
"John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

"1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men...."


-What does every mean to God?
Romans 14:11
"For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

 

[Oldmantook]

It comes down to the twisting of nouns and adjectives. Universalism is nothing more that Evolution, a theory.

Is that your reply?? You avoided responding to the text of Matt 25:46 which you cited as proof for your view when it actually totally contradicts your view. Avoidance doesn't make your case.

 

[Oldmantook]

You do error even IF your opinion of the two ages you just mention are correct. Ephesians 2:7 was written in ‘your’ church age. And it even says there’s more than ‘your’ last Millennial age that follows.

Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Verse 8 then goes on to tell those who seek truth ‘no matter where it leads’, just exactly what “grace” He’s talking about. And that’s the grace which ‘saved you’ in this age.

Straw man as I never wrote that there's only one more age to come. However, grace does indeed save us in this age with the exception of blasphemy against the Spirit which the text clearly states. It is not forgiven in the next age either which is the Millennium because Jesus will rule with a "rod of iron" per Rev 2:27. No grace there. Eph 2:7 states that in the coming ages (except the Millennium) God will show immeasurable grace.

 

[FineLinen]

You do error even IF your opinion of the two ages you just mention are correct. Ephesians 2:7 was written in ‘your’ church age. And it even says there’s more than ‘your’ last Millennial age that follows.

Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Verse 8 then goes on to tell those who seek truth ‘no matter where it leads’, just exactly what “grace” He’s talking about. And that’s the grace which ‘saved you’ in this age.

Dear Sage: The revelation of the ages is a spectacular on-going of the purposes of our glorious God. There are none of us can remotely think of the expanse on our best days. The grace of God flowing out of His glorious love for us, my wee being finds in the realm of the outer laminar spheres of the unspeakable. I try and try, but alas, there is that which is better felt than telt. And even then the Horizons are overwhelming now and forevermore. I love this Father of ours very much!

The Doctrine of the Ages in the Bible -Ernest Martin Ph.D

Part 1

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm 3

Part 2

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d041201.htm 2

 

[twin.spin]

What does never mean to God?

Heb. 3:11
So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"​

Another Scripture that can used for an insight is this:

1 Chronicles 28:9 NIV
…. for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

YLT
…. for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding; if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever.
​

 

[FineLinen]

Another Scripture that can used for an insight is this:

1 Chronicles 28:9 NIV
…. for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought.
If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.

YLT
…. for all hearts is Jehovah seeking, and every imagination of the thoughts He is understanding; if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever.
​

Dear Twin: welcome to Olam.

HEBREW WORD STUDIES עוֹלָם, 'olam' for 'everlasting, age-lasting'

 

[Oldmantook]

I would have to disagree with this notion. What is Just to man, may not be just to God.... For instance:

Jesus mentioned a parable in which workers who worked all day, received the same payment as the one who came in at the last hour. To man, this would be unjust......Even if we played advocate and say "well you agreed to it in the start and got what you agree to..." some would still say that the offering of the same total wage at the last hour, that was offered to the one at the beginning, was unjust.

Who here would be ok on a job where you work 8 hours and another works 1 hour, doing the same thing you do during the 8 , yet both received the same pay at the end? Would we feel it just? I think not.

I do not dismiss the Idea that all will be saved......Just think that using the human justice system, is an unwise way to promote it.

What you write is true as human examples no matter how well-intentioned may not parallel the scriptures when scrutinized. Having said that however, what about this example about God's justice as compared to our human justice system.

I presume that you would acknowledge that God is just but the question is, is punishment the same thing as justice? We would both agree that being condemned to the lake of fire certainly qualifies as punishment but does it meet the demands of justice? For example, a rapist could rape a woman. He claims he is innocent and is not repentant for his crime but is found guilty and sentenced to prison. We would agree that the rapist is being punished but the rape victim will have to live with the consequences of what happened to her for the rest of her life. Is that justice as the victim has life-long consequences through no fault of her own? Suppose yet that a child was conceived and born as a result of the rape and the mother now has the responsibility to raise the child on her own while the perpetrator does nothing but sit in jail. Is that justice? Based on this example, it can be argued that there is a difference between punishment and justice as the former does not always meet the demands of the latter. The pertinent question to consider then is how can punishment also meet the demands of justice in this case? I would submit that the answer demands that the perpetrator of the crime has to willingly agree to make amends and seek reconciliation with the one who he violated. He needs to admit guilt, seek forgiveness and make recompense for his crime - perhaps some sort of ongoing financial obligation/support when he leaves prison and hopefully gets a job. The point is justice is only accomplished when the perpetrator participates in making amends toward the one he is guilty of offending.

I believe this human scenario approximates the picture of how God deals with us justly for our sins against Him. There is Biblical precedent for this view of punishment/justice throughout the scriptures. For example Ex 22:1 states: "If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep." In the NT, Zacchaeus promises Jesus that he will restore fourfold those whom he has defrauded. These instances exemplify that justice demands not just the aspect of punishment but also recompense in order to make amends and fully bring about God's justice.

Given this scriptural evidence, we can apply this to the concept of an eternal hell. Being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire certainly constitutes as punishment but it does not bring about God's justice because the inhabitants in the lake of fire have no opportunity to admit their guilt, seek forgiveness and seek to make recompense as it is "already too late." They must suffer the consequence of their sin forever. There is no chance for amends and reconciliation with God and therein lies the weakness with the retributive eternal punishment of hell. The view of the lake of fire that is most consistent with the scriptures and the character of God is the view where the lake of fire is for the purpose of chastisement where sinners recognize their sin against God, repent and seek forgiveness from the Lamb. Of course they, like all of us cannot repay their debt against God except that they believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus to make recompense for their sin. Like the rapist example it requires willing participation on their part as guilty sinners before a holy God. This reconciliation model of the lake of fire requires that the sinners must endure the purifying fires of hell in order that they may seek reconciliation with the Lamb who is also present in the lake of fire (Rev 14:10) so that one day God's ultimate goal of reconciliation is achieved. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Col 1:19-20) which results in "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11).
Reconciliation with God is impossible with the eternal conscious torment view of hell as well as with the annihilation view of hell as those in the lake of fire are never reconciled to God.

 

[FineLinen]

Hey, Charlie. Thanks for launching a topic on the greater hope.

The end of the chapter tells us who "they" are and what "my rest" is.
This has nothing to do with the greater hope.

Hebrews 3:16-19
Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Hey Charles: This a wonderful link. Contemplating the wonderful "flaw" of our Father actually accomplishing His purpose in the Son of His love fills my old life with great Hope.

 

[FineLinen]

I believe that “having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, does he not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost till he find it.” -Luke 15:14-

I believe the Lord gathers up remnants of fish and bread, He “gathers up remnants that nothing be lost.” -John 6:12

I believe God “will open His hand and satisfy the desire of every living thing.” -Psl. 145:6

I believe that God is “gracious in all His works.” -Psl. 145:17-

I believe “the earth is the Lord’s and all its fulness, the world and all those who dwell therein.” -Psl. 24:1-

I believe “all the kings of the earth shall praise You, oh Lord, when they hear the words of Your mouth.” -Psl. 138:4-

I believe God “reveals Himself by those who did not ask for Him; He was found by those who did not seek Him.” -Isa. 65:1

I Believe

I believe “the Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all the works of His hands. All Your works shall praise You, oh Lord.” -Psl. 145:8-10-

I believe “all the ends of the world shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nations shall worship before You. All those who go down to the dust shall bow before You.” -Psl. 22:27, 29

I believe “O You who hear prayer, to You shall all flesh come. Iniquities prevail against me; as for transgressions, You will provide atonement for them.” -Psl. 66:3, 4-

I believe “through the greatness of Your power Your enemies shall submit themselves to You. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to You.” -Psl. 66: 3, 4

I believe

I believe that “through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning. Great is Your faithfulness.” -Lam. 3:21-24-

I believe that "the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, yet He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. -Lam. 3:31,32

I believe “there is no God besides Me, a just God and Saviour; There is none besides Me. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is none other. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. He shall say, surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. In the Lord all the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory.” -Isa. 45:21-25

I Believe

I believe “in this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all people a feast of choice pieces, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of well-refined wines on the lees. And He will destroy on this mountain the covering cast over all nations and all poeples. He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord will wipe away all tears from all faces.” -Isa.25-26

I believe Jesus Christ “ascended higher than all the heavens so that He might fill the entire universe with Himself.” -Eph. 4:10

I believe that Jesus Christ is destined to reign until God “has put all enemies under His feet.” -1 Cor. 15:25

I believe the end consummates in “abolishing every kind of domination, authority, and power.” - 1 Cor. 15:24

I believe the “last enemy to be abolished is death.” -1 Cor. 15:27

I believe that “when all things are subject to Him, then the Son himself will also be made subordinate to God, who made all things subject to Him.” -1 Cor. 15:28

I believe the subjection of all to Christ Jesus culminates in “God all in all.” -1 Cor. 15:28

I Believe

I believe “all nations of the earth shall be blessed.” -Gen. 18:18

I believe “all families of the earth shall be blessed.” -Gen. 12:3 & Gen. 28:14

I believe “it shall come to pass the saying that is written: ‘death is swallowed up in victory, Oh death, where is your sting. Oh, hell, where is your victory.’ The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.” -1 Cor. 15: 54-58

I believe “it is finished.” -John 19:30

 

[Albion]

Almost all of those verses, often quite poetic, are sweeping generalizations or descriptions about the scope of God's love, authority, forgiveness, or etc. They do not clearly show that every last human will be saved, period.

On the other hand, there are about a half-dozen verses in the New Testament which do at least hint at universal salvation. The problem is, however, that there are many, many more which speak of being lost eternally, and any case that is made for universal salvation has to contend with these.

Naturally, advocates of universalism rarely take them on, but they nevertheless stand as evidence that universal salvation is not on solid ground when it comes to Scripture.

 

[FineLinen]

Almost all of those verses, often quite poetic, are sweeping generalizations or descriptions about the scope of God's love, authority, forgiveness, or etc. They do not clearly show that every last human will be saved, period.

On the other hand, there are about a half-dozen verses in the New Testament which do at least hint at universal salvation. The problem is, however, that there are many, many more which speak of being lost eternally, and any case that is made for universal salvation has to contend with these.

Naturally, advocates of universalism rarely take them on, but they nevertheless stand as evidence that universal salvation is not on solid ground when it comes to Scripture.

Dear Albion: We are all lost until He finds us. The fact is the Restitution of all things is what our Father cherishes. It is as solid as the Author & Finisher. He completes what He begins ! !

Nothing is lost "eternally". Each of us are lost until we are found by the Shepherd.

 

[martymonster]

It comes down to the twisting of nouns and adjectives. Universalism is nothing more that Evolution, a theory.

I believe all men will be saved, not because I don't understand the scriptures, but because I do. Anyone, and I mean anyone who believes in a literal hell filled with literal fire, has no clue what the scriptures teach.....None!

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Albion:

"Many more which speak of being lost eternally..."

Is that a fact?

Bring the many, many before us. Perhaps we can begin with St. Matthew 25:46 listed in Charles O. P.?

OR, if you prefer "everlasting destruction."

Where will we begin?