Godfire - a Word Study

[Saint Steven]

Sure, that's a very pale shadow or type of Christ. The Calvinists like that one, no? Or you think there's more to it?

Yes. I am struggling with this one.
I don't know how you can remove the atonement (complete payment for our sin debt) from the gospel and make it work.

There are bits and pieces of both Calvinism and Arminianism that are true. But the whole package and the divisiveness that comes with it are the real problem. IMHO

And just to be clear, I'm not trying to start a debate about Calvinism and Arminianism.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes. I could see that.

The bigger point is that the Damnationists are like neighbors that claim God is torturing his enemies in his basement. But defend it as just being part of his nature. And will claim that anyone who doesn't believe these false accusations is in rebellion against him. Because he has the right to do whatever he wants. Just crazy.

Don't Damnationists go further by saying the enemies He tortured deserve it and that's why they never reported it earlier lol?

 

[Charlie24]

Well then explain how infinite punishment for finite crime is condign or just, pahlease?

Well then explain how infinite punishment for finite crime is condign or just, pahlease?

2Tim. 3:7
always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Who do you think you are to question God? His judgement does not meet your standard so He is not just.

What's wrong with this?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes. I am struggling with this one.
I don't know how you can remove the atonement (complete payment for our sin debt) from the gospel and make it work.

There are bits and pieces of both Calvinism and Arminianism that are true. But the whole package and the divisiveness that comes with it are the real problem. IMHO

And just to be clear, I'm not trying to start a debate about Calvinism and Arminianism.

Right, but Jesus as the lamb of God rather than the scapegoat. The whole sin debt payment is only there for those who need it. Throw the money changers from the temple is more accurate. Change gears, God's revealing a much greater thing etc.

 

[Saint Steven]

I grow weary of explaining things you should already know!

Growing weary in well-doing? I'm always so patient with you.

The end of the chapter restates exactly what I said.

Hebrews 3:16-19
Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

 

[Saint Steven]

Right, but Jesus as the lamb of God rather than the scapegoat. The whole sin debt payment is only there for those who need it. Throw the money changers from the temple is more accurate. Change gears, God's revealing a much greater thing etc.

Only there for those who need it? Don't we all need it? Who else is sinless besides Jesus?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

2Tim. 3:7
always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Who do you think you are to question God? His judgement does not meet your standard so He is not just.

What's wrong with this?

These are non sequiturs. God hates an unjust measure. It was an eye for an eye. Then Jesus revealed it was as ye reap so shall ye sow. This is the core principle of Christian jurisprudence my friend. Now you're saying we can't trust God on that?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Only there for those who need it? Don't we all need it? Who else is sinless besides Jesus?

No I mean understanding the atonement for guys steeped in legalism. Really it's not enough. (Sorry I'm on the cellphone atm so a bit short on expression and scripture )

 

[Charlie24]

Growing weary in well-doing? I'm always so patient with you.

The end of the chapter restates exactly what I said.

Hebrews 3:16-19
Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Nice twist on words. To be honest I think there is nothing left for us but to part ways.

 

[Saint Steven]

Who do you think you are to question God?

We aren't questioning God. We are questioning a bad translation of the Bible, that's casts a false view of God. Like the serial killer next door that was such a nice neighbor.

 

[Charlie24]

These are non sequiturs. God hates an unjust measure. It was an eye for an eye. Then Jesus revealed it was as ye reap so shall ye sow. This is the core principle of Christian jurisprudence my friend. Now you're saying we can't trust God on that?

Nice twist on words. To be honest I think there is nothing left for us but to part ways.

What kind of trust is it that rebels against His judgement?

 

[Saint Steven]

Nice twist on words. To be honest I think there is nothing left for us but to part ways.

I love you, Charlie.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

What kind of trust is it that rebels against His judgement?

Exactly Charlie, exactly. Let us all remove the planks from our own eyes.

 

[Saint Steven]

Who do you think you are to question God? His judgement does not meet your standard so He is not just.

Damnationists are like neighbors that claim God is torturing his enemies in his basement, but defend it as just being part of his nature. (he's been such a nice neighbor) And will claim that anyone who doesn't believe these false accusations is in rebellion against him. Because he has the right to do whatever he wants. Just crazy.

 

[Saint Steven]

No I mean understanding the atonement for guys steeped in legalism. Really it's not enough. (Sorry I'm on the cellphone atm so a bit short on expression and scripture )

This will seem like a weird question, but I just want to clarify things.
(I'm not questioning your salvation)
Do you believe we can be saved in the here and now?
If so, on what basis? Or... If not, on what basis?

 

[FineLinen]

This will seem like a weird question, but I just want to clarify things.
(I'm not questioning your salvation)
Do you believe we can be saved in the here and now?
If so, on what basis? Or... If not, on what basis?

Dear Saint: There are vast avenues of Father's working in our lives. Much is in the present progressive tense. Salvation, like the baptism of the Holy Spirit (be being filled) is not a one time experience.

Salvation most asuredly is in the here and now for the especially/ malista of His love and grace >>>>

However

We are saved...we are being saved...we yet shall be saved

 

[Charlie24]

Dear Saint: There are vast avenues of Father's working in our lives. Much is in the present progressive tense. Salvation, like the baptism of the Holy Spirit (be being filled) is not a one time experience.

Salvation most asuredly is in the here and now for the especially/ malista of His love and grace >>>>

However

We are saved...we are being saved...we yet shall be saved

You are on a roll FL.

I can't begin to tell you how many preachers I've heard use that phrase.

 

[Charlie24]

FL, I was wondering about something this morning and got hit with some incoming and forgot.

Matt. 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Will Satan and his angels eventually get out of hell also?

 

[Hillsage]

EDITED BELOW

 

[Hillsage]

However

We are saved...we are being saved...we yet shall be saved

So correct brother.

We are saved...(SPIRIT) we are being saved...(SOUL) we yet shall be saved ...(BODY)

2CO 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, (SPIRIT)...and doth deliver (SOUL)....in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us; (BODY).

But even if one hears a thousand 'preachers' say this...if they have not ears to hear...they will not understand what the Spirit does say. But I have confidence in YOU FL.

The story has been told of a beautiful incident that occurred many years ago in the North of England. A young Salvation Army girl,only recently saved, was overflowing with the joy of the Lord and was eager to share her salvation with all others. Walking along the street of a little Durham city, she saw a tall, gray-haired man coming toward her and, stranger though he was, she stopped him and said, "Pardon me, sir, but are you saved?" The tall stranger leaned over toward her and answered, with a quizzical smile playing on his kindly face: "My dear, do you mean ESOTHEN, or SOZOMENOS, or SOTHESOMAI?" The Salvation Army girl was bewildered - it was "all Greek" to her! She did not know that she had stopped bishop Westcott, one of the greatest of Greek scholars and an editor of the famous Westcott and Hort edition of the Greek New Testament. He had asked her, using three different tenses of the Greek verb: "Do you mean, I was saved, or do you mean, I am being saved, or do you mean, I shall be saved?" And then bishop Westcott, who was indeed saved and knew that he was saved, lovingly explained a little of the three tenses of the gospel to the young girl, and showed her something of the riches of her past salvation, her ongoing salvation, and her future salvation, from spirit to soul to body; and before they separated that earnest young girl knew more about the gospel and her Saviour than she had ever known before, and went away rejoicing that she had asked this tall stranger whether he was saved.