Forgiveness

timothyu

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God wishes for us to be tempered with forgiveness. Man is just tempered and seeks to punish as a rule. Would less damage be done, instead of destroying lives of those who make mistakes (as we all do), if punishment was incorporated with forgiveness by society rather than left to individuals?
 
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Aussie Pete

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God wishes for us to be tempered with forgiveness. Man is just tempered and seeks to punish as a rule. Would less damage be done, instead of destroying lives of those who make mistakes (as we all do), if punishment was incorporated with forgiveness by society rather than left to individuals?
Hard to say. There are some individuals who would benefit from a second chance. Others just take advantage of any leeway they are given. Forgiveness is generally a good thing. But there are countless people growing up who have never had any consequences for wrongdoing. Why would they change their behaviour as adults if they've not known discipline as a child? Even the worldly psychologists are beginning to wake up to this obvious fact.
 
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muichimotsu

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God wishes for us to be tempered with forgiveness. Man is just tempered and seeks to punish as a rule. Would less damage be done, instead of destroying lives of those who make mistakes (as we all do), if punishment was incorporated with forgiveness by society rather than left to individuals?
There's also restorative justice as a method to confront the old retributive style of punishment as the solution to injustices
 
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muichimotsu

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Hard to say. There are some individuals who would benefit from a second chance. Others just take advantage of any leeway they are given. Forgiveness is generally a good thing. But there are countless people growing up who have never had any consequences for wrongdoing. Why would they change their behaviour as adults if they've not known discipline as a child? Even the worldly psychologists are beginning to wake up to this obvious fact.
Didn't Jesus advocate forgiving 70 x 7 times or even more than that? His goal seemed restorative in nature, not retributive, especially in taking the lex talionis justice in ancient Israelite law and suggesting turn the other cheek as an alternative, not an eye for an eye
 
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Tone

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punishment was incorporated with forgiveness by society rather than left to individuals

I'm not sure exactly what you are saying here. I have been wondering about how much everything we know and do now , as far as, the justice system (crime and punishment) is a result of what Messiah,not only did, but what He spoke about while on earth. Like when He was describing hell (Gehenna?) and the weeping and gnashing of teeth and outer darkness...and all that. Was He referring to how society would develop due to His Story?
 
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GaveMeJoy

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The government is the sword and God has granted the government authority to —>punish<— Evildoers, specifically in order to create a fear of lawlessness among the people. The function of the secular government is different than the function of Christians who are in submission to that government, but God’s authority is clearly with and for the government to serve a different purpose.

I believe in many elements of restorative justice though. However, as a whole, recidivism is extremely high for criminals, and many need to be kept in prison for the safety of themselves and society.


So I suppose my take is we as the people need to forgive and be permissive and loving, not so for the government. As a society, we must also be more accepting and forgiving, but the law needs to remain as well as punishment for breaking it with severity that matches the crime
 
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Didn't Jesus advocate forgiving 70 x 7 times or even more than that? His goal seemed restorative in nature, not retributive, especially in taking the lex talionis justice in ancient Israelite law and suggesting turn the other cheek as an alternative, not an eye for an eye
Believers need to forgive other believers and anyone else who offends us. That is not optional. In the world system, it is not so easy. Peter said, "Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler". In other words, such behaviour will bring about retribution. Society will not function with the rule of law, which includes consequences for breaking the law.
 
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GaveMeJoy

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Believers need to forgive other believers and anyone else who offends us. That is not optional. In the world system, it is not so easy. Peter said, "Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler". In other words, such behaviour will bring about retribution. Society will not function with the rule of law, which includes consequences for breaking the law.
You said it better than me in less words
 
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Aussie Pete

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Believers need to forgive other believers and anyone else who offends us. That is not optional. In the world system, it is not so easy. Peter said, "Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler". In other words, such behaviour will bring about retribution. Society will not function with the rule of law, which includes consequences for breaking the law.
You said it better than me in less words
Fewer words???? I'm slipping. I never use one word when ten will do!
 
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muichimotsu

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Believers need to forgive other believers and anyone else who offends us. That is not optional. In the world system, it is not so easy. Peter said, "Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler". In other words, such behaviour will bring about retribution. Society will not function with the rule of law, which includes consequences for breaking the law.
Oh, that's convenient, screw all those nonbelievers as long as they're not offending you, no need to apply that forgiveness principle consistently.

Of course society needs laws, I don't think I ever suggested otherwise, you're adding extra qualifiers that are effectively superfluous and practically do the very thing Paul warned against, which was fear of the law: in your case, fear of God, intentional or otherwise, becomes the motivation for obeying it (and I mean fear in both senses)
 
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Aussie Pete

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Oh, that's convenient, screw all those nonbelievers as long as they're not offending you, no need to apply that forgiveness principle consistently.

Of course society needs laws, I don't think I ever suggested otherwise, you're adding extra qualifiers that are effectively superfluous and practically do the very thing Paul warned against, which was fear of the law: in your case, fear of God, intentional or otherwise, becomes the motivation for obeying it (and I mean fear in both senses)
Unbelievers mostly obey the law out of fear. I'm talking about the law of the land, not God's law. People in the state where I live used to drive like lunatics. When I moved here, I was horrified and I'm a lead-foot. The death toll became unacceptable and law enforcement was drastically increased. Now people mostly do not speed and the death toll is much lower.

I don't know how I am supposed to forgive people who have not offended me. I don't know what you are getting at.
 
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paul1149

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if punishment was incorporated with forgiveness by society rather than left to individuals?
What exactly do you have in mind? Government's primary interest is justice, to punish evil and protect the innocent. We already have some mercy built into the system, such as the bankruptcy laws (taken from Moses), youthful offender status, considering mitigating circumstances when sentencing, pardons, commuting sentences, etc. Trump is currently pressing sentencing reform. Once someone has "paid his debt to society", it then is up to those in the private sector to accept him back or not, as the case may be. But primarily it is up to the church to model forgiveness, as a reflection of the forgiveness we have received.
 
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comana

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The government is the sword and God has granted the government authority to —>punish<— Evildoers, specifically in order to create a fear of lawlessness among the people. The function of the secular government is different than the function of Christians who are in submission to that government, but God’s authority is clearly with and for the government to serve a different purpose.

I believe in many elements of restorative justice though. However, as a whole, recidivism is extremely high for criminals, and many need to be kept in prison for the safety of themselves and society.


So I suppose my take is we as the people need to forgive and be permissive and loving, not so for the government. As a society, we must also be more accepting and forgiving, but the law needs to remain as well as punishment for breaking it with severity that matches the crime
The pproblem with recidivism is that it is often the result of society not forgiving after punishment. The societal punishment continues after prison by not hiring, housing or generally accepting those with a criminal record back into society. It sets them up with little recourse but to go back to the criminal life to even survive.
 
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Robban

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God wishes for us to be tempered with forgiveness. Man is just tempered and seeks to punish as a rule. Would less damage be done, instead of destroying lives of those who make mistakes (as we all do), if punishment was incorporated with forgiveness by society rather than left to individuals?

Only the victim owns the copyright to forgive the criminals who commited crimes against him.

Anyone who speaks on his behalf, without permission,
is no different than a common thief.
 
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eik

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The pproblem with recidivism is that it is often the result of society not forgiving after punishment. The societal punishment continues after prison by not hiring, housing or generally accepting those with a criminal record back into society. It sets them up with little recourse but to go back to the criminal life to even survive.
I personally wouldn't have framed the "problem" that way. The problem is that people come out of prison no better than when they went in, and often worse, where they get to associate with hardened criminals. Their mindset becomes conditioned to criminality by the very punishment they sustain, and they will not humble themselves to poverty, chasity and a far lower standard of living. Also jails are far too cushy. But above all the problem is also the very small chance of being caught, e.g. for crimes of theft, leading to temptation.
 
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comana

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I personally wouldn't have framed the "problem" that way. The problem is that people come out of prison no better than when they went in, and often worse, where they get to associate with hardened criminals. Their mindset becomes conditioned to criminality by the very punishment they sustain, and they will not humble themselves to poverty, chasity and a far lower standard of living. Also jails are far too cushy. But above all the problem is also the very small chance of being caught, e.g. for crimes of theft, leading to temptation.
It would be more correct to say it’s not one or the other but a combination. Yes, prison life is not designed to rehabilitate but only punish. The association with other criminals inside can lead to criminal contacts in the outside as well. However, there is no denying that few in society have any interest in helping them post incarceration to get on a productive path. In fact they build barriers instead.
 
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timothyu

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However, there is no denying that few in society have any interest in helping them post incarceration to get on a productive path. In fact they build barriers instead.
Those barriers are often built upon simple accusation.
 
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timothyu

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Government's primary interest is justice, to punish evil and protect the innocent.
Actually if you notice the statue, justice is blindfolded, and for a reason. There is no justice, only the letter of the law. It is a game of law, testing it, reworking it, while the 'charged' are but convenient puppets in the game of a system.

We already have some mercy built into the system
I was talking society, not the system. Two different things.
 
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