The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[HatGuy]

You accused me of being antagonistic from the start. can you take a look at my first post towards you and show me where that happened, and also where I accused you of being dishonest, unless it was a fact?

Your second post accused me of "playing games" right after I answered your initial question.

But can we stay on topic please? Time is too short to waste on ad hominem. Find something to debate theologically. For example, present what is the gospel in your view, and show why anything I presented in this thread is not scriptural etc. or where it misses the mark. That's what this forum is for.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Just like the Pharisees in the Bible, no different, sad...

Are you claiming some here are like the Pharisees? If not, why the comment? If so, can you please show us who does as, or teaches we must do as the Pharisees do?

Be sure to look at exactly what the Pharisees did.

 

[HatGuy]

....is not you claiming we said we must stop sinning, fine, but I still don't buy it, and what's more I think you know that's exactly what you were claiming.

You missed it though. As I stated, if you don't present the full gospel, the message you leave (via the OP) with people is to stop sinning and shape up. That's my point. I even said it might not be the intention, but that's how this presentation comes off. That is a problem for effectiveness.

Maybe if you choose to believe the best of people first you might find conversation more agreeable. It feels, however, that you wanted to assume the worst of my statements - and thus missed them.

 

[Neogaia777]

Are you claiming some here are like the Pharisees?

Yes, I am, but I'll leave to them to decide who they are...

Be sure to look at exactly what the Pharisees did.

I know what they did, do, and are doing even now...

I suggest some of you take a good hard long look at some of Jesus words and harsh rebukes aimed specifically at the Pharisees...

And some of the NT theology built upon it/them as well...

If your preaching any other gospel than the gospel of Grace, then you are against Christ and are preaching a false gospel and are an anti-Christ...

Just take a good hard long look and compare the sins of those who are under and in the gospel of Grace and those who are not, and tell me, who's sins is/are "worse", etc...?

If you can, and be honest about it, etc...

Tell me you can not "see it", etc...

It disgusts me, and I'm pretty sure it disgusts God as well...

Some of the worst religious based atrocities have been done and/or committed by, and "in the name of God", by men like these...

God Bless!

 

[Kenny'sID]

Your second post accused me of "playing games" right after I answered your initial question.

But can we stay on topic please? Time is too short to waste on ad hominem. Find something to debate theologically. For example, present what is the gospel in your view, and show why anything I presented in this thread is not scriptural etc. or where it misses the mark. That's what this forum is for.

The best I can do for you is say the following and leave this argument at that. It seems to me you now see my full point, and the forums you mentioned are also here to discuss problems that are an actual problem and if they aren't, they should never be brought up.

 

[Neogaia777]

Let me put it to some "this way"...

Are you "holy"...?

Or righteous, or good, or whatever...?

If so, or if that answer is "yes", then can I ask you how you "became that way"...?

Cause I'm thinking many of you, who even truly actually are, or could be or may be, have "forgotten" how you became that way to begin with, which would mean you are "no longer that way", but have fallen, cause you have "forgotten", and seem to have "amnesia" etc...

And if you now think it is "you", (that has made you good or holy or righteous or whatever, and is keeping "you" that way), then, I'm sorry, but you are very much mistaken, and very much deceived, and twice a candidate for hell than anyone else, have fallen very, very far away from Grace, etc, etc, etc...

If you have forgotten, and have no love, or mercy, or grace, or forgiveness, or basic human compassion, for others, the same that was given to you and was necessary for you to be saved, anyway, if you have "forgotten", and have no love, or mercy, or grace, or forgiveness, or basic human compassion, for others, others that you may think you can judge...? well, then let's just say if that is you, then I suggest you take a good hard long look at yourself in the mirror and realize just how far "you", "YOU", not others, have truly fallen (from Grace) and I strongly suggest you repent ASAP, or else...

Rekindle that Love in your heart ASAP, before it is too late, etc... The same Love that was shown you and was necessary for you to be saved, etc...

God Bless!

 

[jahel]

Wowzers

 

[Kenny'sID]

Yes, I am, but I'll leave to them to decide who they are...

You evaded the question. Let them decide who they are? You already decided they do it so I need to see it in action so I can know if it is a fact they are doing as the Pharisees did. Tell me how I do as the Pharisees did, and in detail, please?

Wouldn't you like to know if you are wrong on that accusation? I know I would so this is a good time to do that. I see the accusation often, and that's were it ends, no detailed explanation, no nothing but the talk, so I'm sure you understand why I'd like to understand.

 

[Neogaia777]

You evaded the question. Let them decide who they are? You already decided they do it so I need to see it in action so I can know if it is a fact they are doing as the Pharisees did. Tell me how I do as the Pharisees did, and in detail, please?

Wouldn't you like to know if you are wrong on that accusation? I know I would so this is a good time to do that. I see the accusation often, and that's were it ends, no detailed explanation, no nothing but the talk, so I'm sure you understand why I'd like to understand.

I doubt you are seeking to understand, but, anyway...?

Look, I don't "know" you and I don't recall specifically directing or leveling anything specifically at you specifically either, so, you must have "identified" with something I said, or found yourself on "that side of the fence", now, "why is that exactly...? and who exactly did that exactly...? because it wasn't me...? So if it was you (or the spirit in you) then I think you only need to ask yourself "why that is" and question and examine your own self as to the reason(s) "why", etc...?

You say you hear it often, and must identify being on that side of the fence often then, correct, well, "why it that"...?

And if you hear it often, and identify with it often, do you think there is any truth to it at all...?

Anyway,

"In their own thoughts either being accused or otherwise excused"...

"Let not your own heart(s) condemn you", and if it does, then you ask your own self, "why", etc...?

And "correct it", etc, so that your own heart does not continue to condemn you, etc...

Anyway,

Anyway, some say that is the way the Holy Spirit sometimes speaks to a person BTW...

God Bless!

 

[GaveMeJoy]

NOTE: We are talking here about believers who have received the Holy Spirit

the verse you quoted where you said “note we are talking about believers who had received the Holy Spirit” was not about believers who had received the Holy Spirit. They were not saved, hence the lack of changed life and lack of pursuit of holiness.

also, in the New Testament there are situations described where believers were punished unto death for sin which invalidates your argument regarding the possibility of losing salvation.

true salvation can never be lost, also true salvation always results in a changed life IMO

 

[jahel]

Maybe ... the only thing that could be constituted a work of the Holy Spirit rather than coming from the old nature is one that is done without motive? Or love as the motive? Or?!?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I am reminded of the following passage:

James Chapter 3

11 Doth the fountain send forth from the same opening sweet [water] and bitter?

12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, yield olives, or a vine figs? Neither [can] salt water yield sweet.

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? let him show by his good life his works in meekness of wisdom.

14 But if ye have bitter jealousy and faction in your heart, glory not and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom is not [a wisdom] that cometh down from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where jealousy and faction are, there is confusion and every vile deed.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without variance, without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for them that make peace.

Earlier I mentioned quality of message, this is one passage that explains the difference between a gospel message that sounds like it's from God, and a gospel message that sounds like a demon is preaching it.

By their fruit you will know them, just like Jesus said.

 

[jahel]

Sounds like the parable of the trees Judges 9

 

[Kenny'sID]

I doubt you are seeking to understand, but, anyway...?

Look, I don't "know" you and I don't recall specifically directing or leveling anything specifically at you specifically either, so, you must have "identified" with something I said, or found yourself on "that side of the fence", now, "why is that exactly...? and who exactly did that exactly...? because it wasn't me...? So if it was you (or the spirit in you) then I think you only need to ask yourself "why that is" and question and examine your own self as to the reason(s) "why", etc...?

You say you hear it often, and must identify being on that side of the fence often then, correct, well, "why it that"...?

And if you hear it often, and identify with it often, do you think there is any truth to it at all...?

Anyway,

"In their own thoughts either being accused or otherwise excused"...

"Let not your own heart(s) condemn you", and if it does, then you ask your own self, "why", etc...?

And "correct it", etc, so that your own heart does not continue to condemn you, etc...

Anyway,

Anyway, some say that is the way the Holy Spirit sometimes speaks to a person BTW...

God Bless!

I asked you to use me for example for no other reason than, I didn't want you to have to name or use another poster. So all your wild speculation there are wrong. You should have just asked me. If you want to wrongly speculate all that, that's fine, but all I wanted was some proof that you were correct with your accusation about the Pharisees.

Seems you've managed to go off on something else, and not answer the question again, so I'm going to assume at this point that you know of no one here that does as the Pharisees do.

If you should decide to answer the question, I'll be happy to listen. You really don't need to give any example of it happening, you made the accusation so simply back it up...if you can, and don't if you can't.

 

[Zachm531]

Who is doing that?

Are you telling us if we are obedient to God, we lose salvation?

Read Galatians 5:4 again. Grace= free gift if salvation.

If you think that you are justified by works, you have fallen from grace. Simple as that. The book of Romans makes it clear. You are saved by grace through faith and after salvation we are called to do good works. We can see a truly saved person by their fruits but we are nit saved by works.

 

[aiki]

Let's start with the fear of God ...
“Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body;
they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can
destroy both soul and body in hell.” (Jesus, Matthew 10:28, Luke 12:5)
This proves … “fear of the Lord” goes way beyond reverence!

This was a statement made to not-yet-born-again people. It is typical, however, of your false works-salvation doctrine that you bend the verse above to apply to born-again believers who have not been given the spirit of bondage again to fear, but have been given the Spirit of adoption whereby they cry, "Abba! Father!" (Romans 8:15) The First and Great Commandment God gives to His children is to love Him with all of their being. (Matthew 22:36-38) Never is a parallel commandment to fear issued to born-again believers anywhere in all of Scripture because, as the apostle John explains, fear and love cannot co-exist. There is no fear in love, John wrote, and perfect love casts out fear. (1 John 4:18-19) The one who would be motivated by fear in their walk with God is the one who cannot properly understand and enjoy God's love. This is a big problem for, as the apostle Paul wrote, whatever the believer may say, or know, or do, if they don't have love - first for God and then for others - their life in God is spiritually useless. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3) And so it is that Paul did not pray that the Ephesian Christians would know a deep fear of God but, instead, prayed that they would know the full dimensions of God's love for them and in so doing be "filled with all the fullness of God." (Ephesians 3:18-19)

 

[Redwingfan9]

Most churches today teach false doctrines for several reasons:
ignorance, unbelief, for popularity, for financial benefit, etc.
Only a few churches are teaching correct doctrine these days.
There is more to correct doctrine than “Jesus is Lord and Savior”.
Many Spirit-filled Christians are warning, “The church is fast asleep!”

Grace-only, cheap-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism …
are all called antinomianism! This is the notion that a one-time
justification saves … apart from sanctification. But, this is an
incomplete understanding of God’s wonderful free gift of grace!

The problem with easy-believism is that it allows
those who are living in hypocrisy, disobedience, and sin
(i.e. those who are NOT walking in obedience)
to live comfortably with a false assurance of salvation!
This leads to the tragedy described in Matthew 7:21-23 (for example).

“… some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches,
saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives.
… they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4-5, NLT)

NOTE: We are talking here about believers who have received the Holy Spirit.

There are at least 10 NT verses for each of the following truths

Believers prove they have true saving faith:
1 -- by their obedience
2 -- by practicing righteousness
3 -- by living holy lives
4 -- by having a healthy fear of God
5 -- by repenting of their occasional sins
6 –- by overcoming sin, the world, Satan, persecution
7 –- by enduring in the faith to the end of their lives

Re: #4 … If people are believing and trusting in grace-only, cheap-grace,
hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc., HOW can they be fearing God?

So, all of these verses PROVE the road to eternal life is indeed narrow,
and believers are responsible for playing their part in their salvation!

Or, shall we view these verses as merely bluffs, exaggerations, lies even?

Initially, through His grace, God gives to new believers:
Jesus’ righteousness, redemption, reconciliation, etc. and salvation.
However, this grace/salvation is NOT guaranteed to last forever!
Because ONLY their old-past-former sins have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:9).
And because NT verses warn about the possibility of losing salvation.

Some believers became “estranged from Christ”
… they had “fallen from grace” (Galatians 5:4).

Some believers are “of those who draw back to perdition” (Hebrews 10:39).

And there are many more warning verses.

This is just repackaged Federal vision heresy and Catholic works righteousness.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You say you hear it often, and must identify being on that side of the fence often then, correct, well, "why it that"...?

Why is that? Or why do I think I hear the comparison often...I can assure you it's not what you are thinking, as a matter of fact I can fairly well prove why.

3 posts from 3 posters including yours prior to my bringing up the deceptions here, all had an untrue statement that deceived in order to make their point. I showed you all the comments you made, tried to get you to back them up...you could not so they were definitely there and they were deceptions. I did that all to make a point. The point that I already went into a bit already, but lets get into it a little more.

Things I wonder about in general because I see it this often.

Do people really see those clear deceptions as innocent? Do they not know those who are interested in the truth will look into what could be false claims, and see them for what they are, causing those who make them to lose their credibility? Don't they care about any of that? And not only all that, it isn't fair to the opposing side...does that not matter? And of course I have to wonder is this the type tactics that Faith Only uses without giving it a second thought? Is this the type people Faith Only produces?

So that is the answer to your "why is that", the Pharisee thing, for instance, was used just as other untrue things are, because they are useful, that is if one considers winning by using deception, a win at all, when it definitely is not. It's like cheating at a game, we can say we won, but we know better.

I should mention what happened here is no big deal in the scheme of things, my main point is, this happens all too often, and it's not just some posters here.

That brings me to my last point, one I've repeated so many times I've lost count, but here it is again, one can only defend deception by using deception.

So, is deception what we really want to use to defend ourselves with? And isn't the truth kind of what us Christians are supposed to be all about? I understand that may depend on ones view, but I thought that was a basic principle, at least until is seems some are saying "The truth is no longer that important, don't worry too much about it....just have faith.

 

[d taylor]

What is the difference between your version of christianity and islam. Both are base on going to heaven, on a persons works.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Read Galatians 5:4 again. Grace= free gift if salvation.

If you think that you are justified by works, you have fallen from grace. Simple as that. The book of Romans makes it clear. You are saved by grace through faith and after salvation we are called to do good works. We can see a truly saved person by their fruits but we are nit saved by works.

And the question I asked, could I have a direct answer, please?