Why did God make Gospel so confusing?

[Silmarien]

Ok, but whose job is to make things clear to save people from what could possibly be a very bad eternity(!)? Why should it be my job to figure this out even when Calvin, Arminius, Luther, etc... have their disagreements and, as I pointed out in the OP, even Christians disagree about these things.

1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

It's pretty explicit that these are the things that matter for salvation, not having all your theology correct. Granted, there's the underlying problem that nobody is able to properly keep these commandments without grace, but I think almost everyone takes this to mean that salvation is tied to the response to grace, not to having the right theory of soteriology.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think you would be amazed how little in common there actually is among Christians. And how many Christians consider others not "true" Christians and vice versa.

I don't know how amazed I can really be if I've studied 5,000 years of World History, 2,000 years worth of Church History and the history of Christian Doctrine. So, after having done so for the last twenty years, I feel there's little to worry about when I see other Christians disagree with each other over what often (but not always) amounts to as 2 penny concerns.

For example, many Protestants insist that Catholics are not true Christians. But, they block together against Atheists, and agree on the Bible, Trinity, etc..

Yes. So? Being that I don't formally categorize myself as either Roman Catholic or Orthodox, Anglican or some kind of "special" Protestant, I don't really care as much about what makes each denominational outfit distinctive from the others. I'm an Existentialist Philosopher, first and foremost. As far as I'm concerned, all Trinitarian Christians are ONE family in Christ.

Moreover, from what I've studied, many of the supposed disagreements among Christians can be analyzed not only for consistency and inconsistency of thought, but also for their conceptual origins. This is part of what Philosophical Hermeneutics provides, and by moving through the Hermeneutic Circle as a part of my own personal praxis, I usually find that disputes come down to the fact that certain individuals have decided to make several deductions beyond what is reasonable for most people make, and they then pressed those multi-step deductions upon other Christians. This kind of thinking happens among everyone, everywhere and not only between Christians, but for those of us who are empowered by time, place, education, access to source materials, and perhaps some fortuitous circumstances, various doctrinal disagreements can be unraveled and shown to be less imposing than they were thought to be when introduced or forced upon others. The hard part is dealing with Christians who have to wake up to the fact that they've bought into too many deductive conclusions.

You can believe whatever you want. I'm not insisting you change anything. By all means, double down on your beliefs.

The great thing about my position is that I don't have to double down, especially not when someone, such as yourself, makes the insinuation that I will. No, I can actually play hard ball on the atheist's court. I don't even have to defend Christianity ... all I have to do is offend skepticism.

We can just start with the premise that Atheism, especially Nihilistic Atheism, has nothing to offer humanity!

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Easy Believism link

There is a thread that only Christians can respond to, and I've linked to it above, and it was at the top of the page the morning of Jan 1, 2020.

So, as Christians, you have your work cut out for you even after you have convinced an atheist that a Christian God exists. You now have to make sure that atheist understand the Gospel, but there is a debate even among Christians as to what that Gospel is.

Do you care what the gospel is?

 

[HTacianas]

All due respect, reply =/= answer. The Bible clearly says that works decide eternal fate of people. And it also says people can be saved by faith, APART from works. Your 'answer' is as good anyone else's.



It's a good thing salvation is by faith ALONE then, ain't it? I think you missed Baptism, unless, of course, it's assumed to be included in repentance.

I agree with you as far as what you said in your original post, but it's taken until this one to sort through all of the conflicting information you've heard.

You're right that the bible says that "works" decide the eternal fate of people, but the bible does not teach that a person is justified by faith apart from "works". The "works" in that case are the works of righteousness required under the old covenant that have never been a part of Christianity. Paul gives an example of those "works" in his letter to the Colossians in saying "Touch not; taste not; handle not".

The arguments you are seeing have only been around for about 500 years, or roughly one quarter of Christian history. They are a misconstruing of the teachings of Paul. If you add to that a few thousand -or even more- laymen who consider themselves the final and sole authority, even though they all contradict each other, it leads to confusion.

 

[Mathetes66]

BigV: All due respect, reply =/= answer. The Bible clearly says that works decide eternal fate of people. And it also says people can be saved by faith, APART from works. Your 'answer' is as good anyone else's.

Thanks for getting back to me BigV! The issue with good works concerning a Christian is not that they save someone but that Christians get rewards for those done IN Christ & those works done in the flesh are burned up; no reward. Similar to Matt 25 is where Jesus makes this evident:

Matt 25:40 And the King shall answer & say to them, Truly I say to you, Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these MY BRETHREN, ye have done it TO ME.

Mark 9:41 Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water IN MY NAME because you BELONG TO THE MESSIAH will certainly not lose THEIR REWARD.

Matt 10:42 And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is MY DISCIPLE, truly I tell you, he will NEVER LOSE HIS REWARD."

I Cor 3:10ff According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid A FOUNDATION & someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For NO ONE can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is JESUS CHRIST.

12Now if anyone BUILDS ON the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one’s WORK will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire & the fire WILL TEST WHAT SORT OF WORK EACH ONE HAS DONE.

14If the work that anyone has built ON the foundation survives, he will RECEIVE A REWARD. If anyone’s WORK is burned up, he will SUFFER LOSS (see 2 Cor 7:9,10 below), though HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as through fire.

Hebrews 6:1,2 Therefore let us leave the ELEMENTARY TEACHINGS about Christ & MOVE on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance FROM DEAD (LIFELESS) WORKS & of faith in God, instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, & eternal judgment.

Hebrews 9:13,14 For if the blood of goats & bulls & the sprinkling of DEFILED persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of THE FLESH, how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, PURIFY YOUR CONSCIENCE FROM DEAD WORKS TO SERVE THE LIVING GOD.

Acts 15:9 He made no distinction between us & them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.

Colossians 1:21 Once you were alienated from God & were hostile in your minds BECAUSE OF YOUR EVIL DEEDS, yet now He has reconciled you to Himself through the death of Christ in His physical body. As a result, He has brought you into His own presence & you are holy & blameless as you stand before Him without a single fault.

Matt 7:16-22 Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree CANNOT bear BAD fruit & a bad tree cannot bear GOOD fruit.

19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down & THROWN INTO THE FIRE. So then, by their fruit you will recognize them. Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

MANY will say to Me on THAT DAY, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name & in Your name drive out demons & perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, 'I have NEVER known you, depart from Me, YOU WORKERS OF EVIL.'

The basic elementary teaching that most Christians get as a new spiritually born believer in Christ is repentance from dead, lifeless (without the eternal life of Christ) works produced in our flesh apart from Christ & the sanctifying work of the indwelling Holy Spirit. What works we used to do in the flesh prior to our salvation & even after our salvation, in our own strength & effort, will burn up & no reward will be given to use for those DEAD EVIL WORKS.

That is what the blood of Christ & the washing of regeneration by the Holy Spirit does: it cleanses our conscience & heart from continuing to practice evil, dead works in our flesh, on our own. We have died to sin in Christ & died to our flesh. I am no longer alive but now Christ is in me ALIVE & WORKING! I DIED & the life of Christ is now being manifested through my flesh, producing good works that I couldn't do prior to being saved. I did not have the life of God, to be able to see Christ doing His work IN ME, producing His good works THROUGH me.

A nonchristian, an unbeliever cannot produce good works, only evil, dead & LIFEless works that cannot save. A Christian is not saved BY his own works; He is saved IN CHRIST UNTO GOOD WORKS. A Christian is now the workmanship of Jesus--Jesus is doing the good work in us, producing good works He already prepared for us to do!

The key is that Christians are Christ's workmanship, we are His working, saved in Him to do good works not saved by those good works of Christ in me. We as Christians are rewarded for allowing the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit to produce GOOD FRUIT.

Isaiah 26:12 LORD, you will ordain peace for us: for YOU also have WORKED ALL OUR WORKS IN US.

Isaiah 44:3-5 For I will pour water on him that is thirsty & floods on the dry ground: I will pour My spirit on your seed & My blessing on your offspring.

Ezek 11:19 And I will give them one heart & I will put a new spirit within you;

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour on the house of David & on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the SPIRIT OF GRACE & OF SUPPLICAIONS & they shall look on Me whom they have pierced...

John 4:10,14 Jesus answered & said to her, If you knew the gift of God & who it is that said to you, Give Me to drink; you would have asked of Him & He would have given you LIVING WATER.

John 7:37-39 On the last & greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up & called out in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me AND DRINK. Whoever BELIEVES IN ME, as the SCRIPTURE HAS SAID: ‘Streams of living water will flow from HIS INNERMOST BEING.’” He was speaking ABOUT THE SPIRIT, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Acts 11:9ff ‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’ And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house & saying, ‘Send to Joppa & have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here & he will speak words to you by which you will BE SAVED, you & all your household.’

15“And as I began to speak, the HOLY SPIRIT FELL UPON THEM JUST AS HE DID upon us at the beginning. And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but YOU WILL BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.’

17“Therefore if God gave to them THE SAME GIFT {gifts can be earned by works} as He gave to us also AFTER BELIEVING IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” When they heard this, they quieted down & glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance THAT LEADS TO LIFE.”

Water baptism is done to a believer, a disciple & follower of Christ, baptized by the Holy Spirit, after their conversion. It is usually done publicly, in obedience to Christ's command in Matt 28:18-20, in order to IDENTIFY with Christ, in his death, burial & resurrection.

Saul, in Acts 9, believed in the Lord Jesus Christ & said, "Lord, what would you have me do?"
He remained blind until Ananias came & layed hands on him & he received his sight back. He was filled with the Holy Spirit & then he was water baptized.

Spirit baptism or being spiritually regenerated, born from above a second time by God is what GOD DOES in making us alive spiritually & washing from within our conscience & heart & bringing inner washing away of our sins. Being obedient as a new follower of Christ, WE THEN CHOOSE TO BE WATER BAPTIZED, in order to IDENTIFY with Christ in the simple gospel message: His death, burial & resurrection.

We are born again in newness of life & then in obedience we are water baptized to identify with Christ, being immersed & showing our dying to self & our rising again to newness of life.

No matter how hard an unbeliever tries (& I was one), he cannot produce good fruit. That is why Jesus said, 'Why do you call me Lord, Lord, Master, Master AND NOT DO WHAT I TELL YOU? That is why the unbelieving rich young ruler knew something was missing in his life, he still lacked one thing. Jesus loved him but He told him the true thing he needed to do in order to have eternal life.

It's a good thing salvation is by faith ALONE then, ain't it? I think you missed Baptism, unless, of course, it's assumed to be included in repentance.

The Bible, as I understand it, does not teach that we are saved by faith alone.

We are saved by God's grace (unmerited, unearned, cannot work for it, strictly a gift) THROUGH FAITH (Ephesians 2:1-10) & that NOT of ourselves or by works.

We are saved by God's kindness, love & mercy & the washing of regeneration by the Spirit & not by works of righteousness that WE HAVE DONE. (Titus 3:4-6)

As I showed before in the prior thread, Scripture teaches the relationship of godly sorrow, repentance & salvation in 2 Cor 7:9,10.

I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful in a godly fashion, according to the will of God, so that you might not SUFFER LOSS in anything through us.

For the godly sorrow that is according to the will of God--
produces a repentance without regret--
LEADING TO SALVATION, but the sorrow of the world produces DEATH.

The issue of baptism is not included in repentance. But one must first understand the teachings on baptisms (plural), which young Christians are taught as the elementary teachings of Christ as I previously mentioned in Hebrews 6 & which I was taught as a young believer in Christ.

There is only one baptism that saves a Christian: the baptism of the Holy Spirit. (Eph 4:3)

Matt 3:11,12 I baptize with water those who repent of their sins & turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am—so much greater that I’m not worthy even to be His slave & carry His sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit & with fire. His winnowing fork is in His hand & He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor & He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

Eph 4:1-5 I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling you have received, with all humility & gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body & one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called, one Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM...

John 3:3-15 Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God UNLESS HE IS BORN A SECOND TIME. ” “How can a man be BORN {AGAIN} when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. Can he enter his mother’s WOMB A SECOND TIME TO BE BORN?”

5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God UNLESS HE IS BORN--of water & the Spirit. Flesh is BORN of flesh, but spirit is BORN of the Spirit. Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born from above.’

8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone BORN OF THE SPIRIT.”

9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do NOT understand these things?

11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know & we testify to what we have seen & yet you people do NOT accept our testimony. If I have told you ABOUT EARTHLY THINGS & you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?

13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

I Cor 12:13 For by ONE SPIRIT are we all BAPTIZED INTO THE BODY OF CHRIST, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink in one Spirit.

Isaiah 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion & shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the middle thereof by the Spirit of judgment & by the Spirit of burning.

In Matt 25, this is what Christ has done, separating the unbelievers from the believers. This is shown once again in the parable of the weeds & the parable of the net, further CLARIFYING what is meant in Matt 25.

Matt 13:26-43 “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” He replied, “The One who sows the GOOD SEED is the Son of Man. The field is the world & the good seed REPRESENTS THE SONS OF THE KINGDOM.

The weeds are the sons of THE EVIL ONE & the enemy who sows them is DEVIL. The harvest is the end of the age & the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are collected & BURNED IN THE FIRE, so will it be at the END of the age.

41The Son of Man will send out His angels & they will WEED OUT OF HIS KINGDOM every cause of sin & all who PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS. And they will throw THEM into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth. Then THE RIGHTEOUS will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears TO HEAR, let him hear.

Matt 13:47-51 Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was cast into the sea & caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the men pulled it ashore. Then they sat down & sorted the GOOD FISH into containers, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So will it be at the END of the age: The angels will come & separate the WICKED FROM THE RIGHTEOUS & throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth. Have you understood all these things?” “Yes,” they answered.

 

[ViaCrucis]

.

 

[BigV]

Thanks for getting back to me BigV! The issue with good works concerning a Christian is not that they save someone but that Christians get rewards for those done IN Christ & those works done in the flesh are burned up; no reward. Similar to Matt 25 is where Jesus makes this evident:

That's one interpretation. But it's clear from Matthew 25 that good works also result in salvation, and lack of good works results in eternal damnation.

A rich young ruler was told by Jesus that following commandments will result in him 'entering into life', not rewards, but eternal life. (Matthew 19:17). The rich man couldn't give up his riches and went away sad. But if "grace" teaching of the modern Christians is right, that young man did not have to leave his riches in order to be saved!

 

[BigV]

Do you care what the gospel is?

I care for the truth. And the Gospel doesn't appear to be truth.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I care for the truth. And the Gospel doesn't appear to be truth.

Where does one find truth?

 

[BigV]

The great thing about my position is that I don't have to double down, especially not when someone, such as yourself, makes the insinuation that I will. No, I can actually play hard ball on the atheist's court. I don't even have to defend Christianity ... all I have to do is offend skepticism.

We can just start with the premise that Atheism, especially Nihilistic Atheism, has nothing to offer humanity!

Well, suit yourself.

The good news of Atheism is that there is no eternal hell and you don't have to suffer in Hell for all eternity for offending Abrahamic Deity.

Think of how many children can be comforted with the above thought?

Teach Them: About Hell

 

[BigV]

Where does one find truth?

Well this is a loaded question, and perhaps you can start a new post with that question.

From my experience, faith is the least reliable way to get to the truth, because by faith, you can believe anything. And yet, religion requires faith. So, by that token, religion is the last thing you'd use to get to the truth.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Well this is a loaded question, and perhaps you can start a new post with that question.

From my experience, faith is the least reliable way to get to the truth, because by faith, you can believe anything. And yet, religion requires faith. So, by that token, religion is the last thing you'd use to get to the truth.

You've gotten some distorted views of what faith is that we can talk about later. For now, how much faith does it require to believe that the physical universe came from nothing?

 

[BigV]

1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

It's pretty explicit that these are the things that matter for salvation, not having all your theology correct. Granted, there's the underlying problem that nobody is able to properly keep these commandments without grace, but I think almost everyone takes this to mean that salvation is tied to the response to grace, not to having the right theory of soteriology.

It's also pretty clear that these teachings are requiring works. Matthew 19, which referenced these commandments required a rich man to give up all his wealth in order to enter life, a feat he could not do. Why is grace available to some Christians and not the rich young ruler?

 

[BigV]

You've gotten some distorted views of what faith is that we can talk about later. For now, how much faith does it require to believe that the physical universe came from nothing?

There is a world of difference between believing there is an invisible man in the sky who watches your every move and thoughts and records them in a book that is later used to judge you vs science that is based on observation and measurements.

Btw, you are welcome to correct the scientific community. Go ahead and show them where their calculations or assumptions are wrong. They'd welcome the challenge, unlike the religious who would burn you at the stake, if they could.

I also find your question inconsistent. You want scientists to explain the HOW, where as you are perfectly content with believing "Goddidit" without any explanations! How did your God create a man? You don't know and don't care, am I right?

 

[ViaCrucis]

That's one interpretation. But it's clear from Matthew 25 that good works also result in salvation, and lack of good works results in eternal damnation.

A rich young ruler was told by Jesus that following commandments will result in him 'entering into life', not rewards, but eternal life. (Matthew 19:17). The rich man couldn't give up his riches and went away sad. But if "grace" teaching of the modern Christians is right, that young man did not have to leave his riches in order to be saved!

From a Lutheran perspective we understand these things to be a distinction between Righteousness Coram Deo and Righteousness Coram Mundo; i.e. righteousness before God and righteousness before the world. Both are essential to what it means to be Christian.

Salvation is not just "how do I get to heaven?"; it's a larger picture concept about God's rescue and redemptive work for and in the world. And so there are different questions to be asked, with different answers. One such question is, "How am I, a sinner estranged from God and in my flesh hostile toward God, reconciled to Him?" The answer to that question is,

"For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation." - Romans 5:6-11

So the question of reconciliation, of justification, that is understood as what God has accomplished for us through Christ; which is ours as grace, through faith.

But that doesn't address the question of, "How ought we now live?", i.e. our salvation and righteousness Coram Mundo, before and in the world, before our fellow man and in relation to our neighbor.

The answer to that is in places such as the Sermon on the Mount,

"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever says to his brother 'Raka!' will be liable to the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the fire of Gehenna. So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First make peace with your brother, and then come and offer your gift." - Matthew 5:21-24

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you." - Matthew 5:38-42

Or as St. Paul writes,

"Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be lazy in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.

Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be arrogant, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all." - Romans 12:9-18

It's what Jesus talks about in Matthew 25, that whatever we do to the "least of these" we do it to Him; how we treat others is how we treat God; because the Great Commandment consists in two equal and connected exhortations: "Love the Lord your God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." The love of God and neighbor are one and the same commandment. This is why St. John in his epistle writes,

"If anyone says, 'I love God,' and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen." - 1 John 4:20

These are not competing issues; but separate questions: "How am I reconciled to God?" and "How do I live toward others?" And both are part of what the word "salvation" means. Because salvation isn't just my relationship toward God, or more accurately God's relationship toward me; but also includes our relationships toward one another and the rest of God's creation.

This is why the Apostle writes, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), it is literally about our salvation being present in this world as we let God work through us in love and compassion.

It is when we start to confuse these things that we start to have problems, as the result is almost always either despair or arrogance. Despair in our failings, thinking that we are somehow beyond redemption through our moral shortcomings (which are myriad); or arrogance in thinking that because we have our golden ticket, we can flip our middle finger to everyone else and live our lives however we want and the consequences of our words and behavior be damned. Because we will be judged by the things we've said, thought, and did; how we treat other people matters. We will have to stand before Judgment for how we (mis)treated the "least of these", and we'll have no one but ourselves to blame.

And so it is never about doing stuff to earn God's acceptance--that's ours freely because that's who God is toward us in Jesus, the One who comes to us to make peace with us by His grace.

And it is never about our glory in this life, as though we have already "made it", but instead in light of God's peace we are to be a people of that peace toward others. As we have been shown mercy, we are to be merciful; as we have been loved, we are to love. And so Christ says to us, "Go and do likewise". We carry our cross, follow Jesus, we endure with patience in whatever struggle of life we may encounter. To love others, to show compassion, to lay down our lives in humble service. Not to gain brownie points with God, but because people matter.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's also pretty clear that these teachings are requiring works. Matthew 19, which referenced these commandments required a rich man to give up all his wealth in order to enter life, a feat he could not do. Why is grace available to some Christians and not the rich young ruler?

Grace was standing right in front of that rich young ruler, but he refused it. It wasn't the act of selling his goods that would save him. After all, "If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing." (1 Corinthians 13:3). What Jesus was doing was inviting the rich young ruler to come and be part of what Jesus was doing, to discover the kind of life Jesus was sharing--but the rich young ruler preferred his wealth, and so went away sad. Jesus doesn't just say, "Go and swell your possessions" but also "Come and follow Me". That's what is key in the passage.

It's the same kind of lesson Jesus constantly offers, that if we seek to keep ourselves, we'll lose everything, and it is only by giving ourselves away that we'll gain anything of true value.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BigV]

What Jesus was doing was inviting the rich young ruler to come and be part of what Jesus was doing, to discover the kind of life Jesus was sharing--but the rich young ruler preferred his wealth, and so went away sad.

I think you may have missed my point. Why couldn't the rich young ruler have his wealth and have eternal life too? Giving up wealth is not easy and not even necessary for the Christians. Why was it necessary for the rich young ruler?

Perhaps Paul and Jesus have different ideas of how one gets 'saved'?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I think you may have missed my point. Why couldn't the rich young ruler have his wealth and have eternal life too? Giving up wealth is not easy and not even necessary for the Christians. Why was it necessary for the rich young ruler?

Perhaps Paul and Jesus have different ideas of how one gets 'saved'?

You'll note that Jesus doesn't tell everyone to sell all their possessions, but he does tell this person to sell what he has and then to come follow Him. No where in the text does Jesus tell the rich young ruler that he'll have eternal life by selling all his material wealth.

"And behold, a man came up to Him, saying, 'Rabbi, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?' And He said to him, 'Why do you ask Me about what is good? There is only One who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.' He said to Him, 'Which ones?' And Jesus said, 'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.' The young man said to Him, 'All these I have kept. What do I still lack?' Jesus said to him, "If you would be complete, go, sell what you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.' When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great wealth." - Matthew 19:16-22

So Jesus tells the man that if wants to have life, to abide by what God has said. The young man, still earnest, says, "Is there something more?" Jesus' answer to that question is that if the man is truly wishing to achieve this goal he should give up his current life to come be Jesus' disciple. That means selling his possessions.

Jesus instructs the man to detach himself from his material wealth in order to become a disciple, but he was unwilling to forfeit these things. This is in contrast to the rest of the disciples who also gave up their former lives to become Jesus' disciples.

Let's be clear here: There is nothing here which says that the young man is now damned, or won't "go to heaven". That isn't the language Jesus uses, and it is an act of eisegesis to read that into what Jesus says.

Jesus speaks about "entering the kingdom of heaven", but He is not talking about the afterlife. That's not what the kingdom is.

The wealth here is the obstacle, the stumbling block which keeps the young man in his old life. If he could not depart from mere possessions, how could he possibly forfeit his life?

I'm not arguing in favor of wealth--only that by focusing on the wealth itself the point is being missed. If Simon Peter, a poor fisherman, had chosen his fishing career over Christ it would be the same. However the point is still raised: Those who have more in this life will cling to it more fiercely. So if one wants to point out the many ways in which many Christians seem to flaunt wealth, and to cling fiercely to an ideology of wealth--that is good point to make; and one which the great tradition of the Church supports. But it is a complete missing the forest for the trees to take the passage as about giving up the wealth to be saved (not what the text says), rather than that Jesus is calling and inviting the man to come and follow Him, to come join Him, to come find life in and with Him in what He was saying and doing--i.e, the kingdom.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BigV]

You'll note that Jesus doesn't tell everyone to sell all their possessions,

Ah.. good one. A typical Christian response. Ignore and explain away the inconvenient teachings.
But Luke 12:33 and Luke 14:33 contradict your point. Every follower of Jesus has to sell their possessions. But lucky for you, there was Paul. So you don't have to follow Jesus if Paul's teaching is more convenient.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, suit yourself.

The good news of Atheism is that there is no eternal hell and you don't have to suffer in Hell for all eternity for offending Abrahamic Deity.

Think of how many children can be comforted with the above thought?

Teach Them: About Hell

Just about like how comforting it is for children to hear the other 'good news': Hey, little Matthew, guess what? You're gonna die and then that will be that. All utter darkness and Nothingness, and stone cold; in fact, you won't even be conscious since you'll just completely cease to exist. You'll have been here, and then the next moment, you're not. Literally - NOT! Sounds like a good time, doesn't it?

Yeah, I'm just waiting to hear an honest-to-nada report from you about how you've told your own kids this wonderful truth about 'utter death' and oblivion.

I addressed the issue with my son when he was young, and he's been rather unsettled by it ever since ....................... Maybe I should have focused on the possibility of Heaven and Hell instead?