The State of the Dead!!!

[Basil the Great]

The bible is clear. Let me ask you this, Would a merciful God allow someone to burn forever? How would you feel if your loved one is burning and burning with no end in sight while you live peace? Satan would love that but not God. There is no such teaching as eternal life for a sinner. I served God out of fear, but that is not what he desires. He wants it to be out of love.

I tend to agree with your analysis and have for many years. However, I still feel that we would be remiss if we did not at least admit the possibility of eternal punishment in Hell.

 

[Basil the Great]

I can only go by scriptures. The Lord calls those with familiar spirits abominations. Those are the workings of satan.

I understand your position. Two people that I know well have told me of their relatives (a brother and a grandmother) having witnessed ghosts of dead loved ones. Hence, I am more open to the subject.

 

[concretecamper]

I sort of remember when the Apostles saw Jesus walking on the water they thought it was a ghost. Why would the Gospel writer write that? Hmmmmm Can this be taken as a confirmation on the existence of ghosts?

 

[BrotherD]

I understand your position. Two people that I know well have told me of their relatives (a brother and a grandmother) having witnessed ghosts of dead loved ones. Hence, I am more open to the subject.

A few months ago I had a dream of my auntie who has passed away. I was engaging her for a little while and then i mentioned the scripture "the dead know not anything" and immediately whaterver it was went away.

A lot of actors like to "method act" moat of them say they talk to the dead. Necromancers is what the bible calls them. In these last days we have to stick to the Word of God because the deceptions of the devil will only get stronger. If we aren't grounded in his Word we will be swept away with these deceptions.

 

[BrotherD]

I sort of remember when the Apostles saw Jesus walking on the water they thought it was a ghost. Why would the Gospel writer write that? Hmmmmm Can this be taken as a confirmation on the existence of ghosts?

They thought it was a spirit (Matthew 14:26).

 

[concretecamper]

They thought it was a spirit (Matthew 14:26).

what about the other 2 accounts? Also, what is meant by spirit. Isnt a spirit a ghost?

 

[BrotherD]

what about the other 2 accounts? Also, what is meant be spiritm

What other two accounts?

 

[BobRyan]

The State of the Dead

Psalm 6:5 KJV — For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:10 KJV — Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Psalm 115:17 KJV — The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Job 7:9,10
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

The Dead Are Dead/Sleep

2 Samuel 12:21-23
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The Wicked Dead:

Psalm 37:20 KJV — But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 68:2 KJV — As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The Righetous Dead:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Only the Righteous Live Forever:
Romans 6:23 KJV — For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Genesis 3:22 KJV — And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Revelation 2:7 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Thanks for sharing that. I especially like that 1Thess 4 quote

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And of course your quote of John 11

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

 

[concretecamper]

What other two accounts?

umm, the other 2 gospel accounts

 

[BobRyan]

Ghosts exists be guided!

The question is not whether some entity is manifesting in those special cases -- rather the question is 'what is it?'... and that seems to be answered in the 1 Sam 28.

1 Sam 28
6 When Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets. 7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a woman who is a medium at En-dor.” 8 Then Saul disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “Conjure up for me, please, and bring up for me whom I shall name to you.” NASB

"8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee." KJV

 

[BrotherD]

Thanks for sharing that. I especially like that 1 Thess 4 quote

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And of course your quote of John 11

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Those scriptures let me know i can be fearless when it comes to preaching the gospel becasue i know that death is a sleep and after that is the victory.

 

[BobRyan]

I applaud your effort to explain the state of the dead, but I do not believe that we can ever be certain of such a thing. While I do not like the doctrine of Hell and I have grave doubts about it, especially for non-mass murderers, I do not believe that we can ignore the possibility of eternal punishment for any of us.

Matt 10:28
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And yet Christians who believe just that - that death is actually the absence of life, and not a mere passage into a conscious eternally-ongoing afterlife - are sometimes passive-aggressively condemned by Christians who cling to traditional Heaven and Hell, for believing exactly what all of the above verses say at face value (and there's no context surrounding said verses that give us any real reason to not take them at face value, mind you). ..... Interesting, nei?

The OP texts do not say that heaven and hell are not real - only that there is a "dormant state" that some folks are not noticing when it comes to this topic.

 

[SarahsKnight]

The State of the Dead

Psalm 6:5 KJV — For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:10 KJV — Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Psalm 115:17 KJV — The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Job 7:9,10
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

The Dead Are Dead/Sleep

2 Samuel 12:21-23
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The Wicked Dead:

Psalm 37:20 KJV — But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 68:2 KJV — As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The Righetous Dead:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Only the Righteous Live Forever:
Romans 6:23 KJV — For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Genesis 3:22 KJV — And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Revelation 2:7 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

And yet Christians who believe just that - that death is actually the absence of life, and not a mere passage into a conscious eternally-ongoing afterlife - are sometimes passive-aggressively condemned by Christians who cling to traditional Heaven and Hell, for believing exactly what all of the above verses say at face value (and there's no context surrounding said verses that give us any real reason to not take them at face value, mind you). ..... Interesting, nei?

 

[SarahsKnight]

Matt 10:28
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Ugh. You conditionalist so-called Christians who deny Jesus' plain teachings of eternal conscious torture in Hell, clearly twisting that verse around to support your false teaching that the soul is actually destructible.

 

[BrotherD]

And yet Christians who believe just that - that death is actually the absence of life, and not a mere passage into a conscious eternally-ongoing afterlife - are sometimes passive-aggressively condemned by Christians who cling to traditional Heaven and Hell, for believing exactly what all of the above verses say at face value (and there's no context surrounding said verses that give us any real reason to not take them at face value, mind you). ..... Interesting, nei?

Yeah those plain statements should leave no room for doubt.

 

[BobRyan]

I sort of remember when the Apostles saw Jesus walking on the water they thought it was a ghost. Why would the Gospel writer write that? Hmmmmm Can this be taken as a confirmation on the existence of ghosts?

It can be taken as confirmation that the disciples had some interesting beliefs. so also their reluctance to evangelize Samaritans, and their view of gentiles, and their thinking that Peter's ghost was knocking on the door while Peter was in Jail and the idea that gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved...etc.

But I think you are looking for Bible confirmation that ghosts are really dead people instead of what the Bible says about the ghost and the "familiar spirit" in 1 Sam 28??

 

[visionary]

Ghosts exists be guided!

Demons exist. They are the ghosts, they are also wanting to possess, oppress, and deceive.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Matt 10:28
28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

clearly twisting that verse around

You are right to note that that reaction you posted is how some folks do respond to a mere quote of that Matt 10:28 text.

 

[visionary]

I applaud your effort to explain the state of the dead, but I do not believe that we can ever be certain of such a thing. While I do not like the doctrine of Hell and I have grave doubts about it, especially for non-mass murderers, I do not believe that we can ignore the possibility of eternal punishment for any of us.

If eternal punishment is but a flash in the pan before non existence, is that punishment enough? If the punishment is as long as it is for Satan, even he comes to ashes, as the fire consumes him from within until there is nothing left. So it is with all who follow him. The eternal punishment is the "forever" part. The punishment itself is like a flame going out after the fuel for the flame is gone.

 

[concretecamper]

It can be taken as confirmation that the disciples had some interesting beliefs. so also their reluctance to evangelize Samaritans, and their view of gentiles, and their thinking that Peter's ghost was knocking on the door while Peter was in Jail and the idea that gentiles had to be circumcised to be saved...etc.

apples and oranges, anyone hungry?