BrotherD

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The State of the Dead

Psalm 6:5 KJV — For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:10 KJV — Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Psalm 115:17 KJV — The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Job 7:9,10
9
As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

The Dead Are Dead/Sleep

2 Samuel 12:21-23
21
Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The Wicked Dead:

Psalm 37:20 KJV — But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 68:2 KJV — As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Malachi 4:1-3
1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The Righetous Dead:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Only the Righteous Live Forever:
Romans 6:23 KJV — For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Genesis 3:22 KJV — And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Revelation 2:7 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
 

BrotherD

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Do you have a specific point or comment you wish to make?

(No, your quotations do not speak for themselves)

No such thing as Hell where one burns forever, and we can have peace knowing that the dead in Christ is just sleep. There is no such things as ghost and family members visiting love ones.
 
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BrotherD

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Have you fogotten all the verses Jesus talked about hell? or you just decided to skip 'em. h€g

Hell is a greek mythology type term. The Hebrews didn't believe in an eternal place of torment. The bible states that the wicked will perish. I supplied enough bible verses as well. A sinner will never live forever, at least that is what the Word of God says. Just prayerfully look at the scriptures. I believed in a hell at one point as well.
 
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Basil the Great

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No such thing as Hell where one burns forever, and we can have peace knowing that the dead in Christ is just sleep. There is no such things as ghost and family members visiting love ones.
Sorry to disagree, but ghosties do exist and despite what most posters on CF believe, they are not all demons.
 
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Basil the Great

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Which denomination teaches this?
I did not say that any denomination teaches this. However, some Catholic theologians have speculated in the past that ghosts might be human souls in Purgatory.
 
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I did not say that any denomination teaches this. However, some Catholic theologians have speculated in the past that ghosts might be human souls in Purgatory.
How do we know they aren't demons? What are their characteristics?
 
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Basil the Great

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How do we know they aren't demons? What are their characteristics?
We can never be absolutely certain, but if the ghost of a family member returns in the middle of the night to warn a family that the house is on fire, then such would seem very unlikely to be a demon.
 
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BrotherD

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There is one specific instance in the Old Testament and that is the story of Saul talking to Samuel's ghost in 1st Samuel 28.

Yes that wasn't Samuel whom Saul spoke with, look at what scripture states:

1 Chronicles 10:13 KJV — So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a FAMILIAR SPIRIT, to enquire of it;

We know that this is a sin and an abomination in the sight of the Lord.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

The Lord would never let the devil bring up any human, let alone a prophet like Samuel.
 
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BrotherD

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We can never be absolutely certain, but if the ghost of a family member returns in the middle of the night to warn a family that the house is on fire, then such would seem very unlikely to be a demon.

Brother scriptures state otherwise. He says a few times that they are sleep:

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in ANY THING that is done under the sun.

The Lord is clear, we also don't get another chance to comeback. Its the judgment next.
 
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Basil the Great

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The State of the Dead

Psalm 6:5 KJV — For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:10 KJV — Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Psalm 115:17 KJV — The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Job 7:9,10
9
As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.

Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

The Dead Are Dead/Sleep

2 Samuel 12:21-23
21
Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

The Wicked Dead:

Psalm 37:20 KJV — But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalm 68:2 KJV — As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Malachi 4:1-3
1
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

The Righetous Dead:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorro not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Only the Righteous Live Forever:
Romans 6:23 KJV — For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Genesis 3:22 KJV — And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Revelation 2:7 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
I applaud your effort to explain the state of the dead, but I do not believe that we can ever be certain of such a thing. While I do not like the doctrine of Hell and I have grave doubts about it, especially for non-mass murderers, I do not believe that we can ignore the possibility of eternal punishment for any of us.
 
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BrotherD

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You are quoting Scripture from other Old Testament books, but nothing in the Samuel account says that it was a demonic appearance. You may be right or you may be wrong.

I can only go by scriptures. The Lord calls those with familiar spirits abominations. Those are the workings of satan.
 
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BrotherD

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I applaud your effort to explain the state of the dead, but I do not believe that we can ever be certain of such a thing. While I do not like the doctrine of Hell and I have grave doubts about it, especially for non-mass murderers, I do not believe that we can ignore the possibility of eternal punishment for any of us.

The bible is clear. Let me ask you this, Would a merciful God allow someone to burn forever? How would you feel if your loved one is burning and burning with no end in sight while you live peace? Satan would love that but not God. There is no such teaching as eternal life for a sinner. I served God out of fear, but that is not what he desires. He wants it to be out of love.
 
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